[alctel]

I plan to do this next year, maybe, but first want to do a little theory crafting to see if it's even feasible.

I own a 1980 36' Hunter, displacement 13,500. It's currently powered by a 20HP 2QM20 Yanmar, which pushes it along at around 6 knots.

I currently have a lead acid starter and a lead acid house battery, all my electrics are on 12volts and I just replaced every single piece of wiring with new cable, new panel etc.

Now, my idea is with a combination of large solar panels (such as http://www.emarineinc.com/products/Kyocera-325-Watt-Solar-Panel-Fixed-Frame-KD325GX%2dLFB.html) mounted above the cockpit (with a custom bimini frame) and 1 or 2 wind gens is to have about 1500/2000 watts of renewable standalone electricity generation.

Elco Motor EP-2000 is the engine I am looking at (AC motor) or the AC20 https://www.electricautosports.com/node/229 (72Volt)

Does anyone have any experience with these motors or have another suggestion?

For batteries, is it essential to go lithium? Or can I go AGMs, which are literally 1/5 of the price. I think the runtime of both engines is calculated on 220AH of batteries at 72volts, or 1320AH at 12v. This bank would take around 10-20 hours (allowing in a large fudge factor) to fully charge from depleted to full using (obviously, not how I am going to run them). The runtime of the first engine at hull speed on 220AH of batteries is around 3 hours at 80% hull speed, going up to 6 hours at 60%. If the battery bank takes 5-10 hours to charge up halfway then in theory I should be able to run for most of a day.

Another question I have is for the house bank - would I be able to link it up to the charging as well without damaging the batteries? I heard going above 1000watts on 12volts is a pretty big no-no. What would be the best way to link the engine bank and the house bank? Would running them off the same large bank be ok (I am guessing no)

I'd be interested to see if anyone else has had such a large amount of solar/wind in conjunction with an electric engine and how it worked out for them.

Thoughts/Comments/Insults?

 

[chuck53]

how about this idea...
electric motor to turn the prop as you want, but replace that yanmar with a small marine genset. You could cut back on needed batteries and never have to worry if the sun is shining or not. Diesel-electric propulsion has been around for many years.

 

[UnionPacific]

Have you seen the new torqueedo outboards?
I think it would push your little boat fine, and you can have a helm mount control. Eliminates 90% of your issues, other then that FLA batteries will work fine.

 

[alctel]

how about this idea...
electric motor to turn the prop as you want, but replace that yanmar with a small marine genset. You could cut back on needed batteries and never have to worry if the sun is shining or not. Diesel-electric propulsion has been around for many years.

I was planning to get one of the small honda gens for in case of emergency

Have you seen the new torqueedo outboards?
I think it would push your little boat fine, and you can have a helm mount control. Eliminates 90% of your issues, other then that FLA batteries will work fine.

I'll look into those, thanks!

 

[christian.hess]

alctel there are a million threads and info out there...

I found out that here on sailnet there are not many interested in electric

look into yahoo electric thread and even con cruisers forums...

there is a neat cal 2-27 that just did the switch

I forget who on here just did one too again on a smaller boat and had a great time doing it

depending on how your boat is setup there are many budget ways of doing this

I have my list and favourites tagged for a future conversion when I get to it. You are more than welcome to it...I really invested some time into getting the info for mine down in el salvador(islander 36)

you can also make your torqueedo outboard yourself...plenty of vids on youtube modding old outboards into electric

for buying sources I have found the best to be electricmotorsport.com
evmarine is another one

thunderstruck sell nice kits

etc...

also look for golfcart replacement sellers...you can get motors and controllers for cheap there as well as chargers.

I find that people will always debate RANGE when what you need to debate is USEAGE
how you use your auxiliary DICTATES how or what auxiliary you need to use

diesel electric is as time tested as DAS BOOT btdt

you can make pretty damn nice small versions on our boats today

ps. there are many uinversal diesel engines that can be made into generators using twin alternators for example that will produce much more power than a normal generator sold off the shelf at a tenth of the price.

use that to power a simple DC motor belt driven or shaft driven or use a nice enclosed tranny that they sell now on electricmotorsport and you have a much better and marine version of electric conversion kit you commonly see out there.

I have also found that many just dont understand what an auxiliary means and they get pretty damn mean and angry when you tell them you dont NEED a 50hp perkins 4108 on a 30 footer

just warning you

good luck

please post pics of what you do in the end at least just to update!

christian

 

[Maine Sail]

The only thing I can say to help you keep everyone around you honest in this endevour is to:

Trust Ohm's Law - Many here and elsewhere try to re-wire it, but as of yet no one has been successful.. For your use a useful calculation is below...

Convert Watts to Amps at fixed voltage:

Watts ÷ Volts = Amps

eg:
5000W ÷ 12V = 417A
5000W ÷ 48V = 104A
5000W ÷ 72V = 69A

Never Forget Peukert - When dealing with high load applications such as e-boats one simply can not ignore Peukerts Law when dealing with lead acid batteries. You will find very, very few e/conversion companies who are up front about this point...

Don't ignore Coulombic Efficiency - Lead acid batteries require that more energy be put back in than you took out.

A 100Ah lead acid battery is only a 100Ah battery when used at and loaded at 5A at 80F, when new or just broken in.... Every other load & temp range either above or below the 20 hour rate at 80F results in CHANGES the batteries 20 hour rated Ah capacity. Cycle life and DOD also impact Ah capacity.. Anyone telling you otherwise is really not qualified to be doing so.

LiFePO4 cells have minimal Peukert's corrections but they are still not a Peukert of 1.0..... A 100Ah battery with a 1.0 Peukert would provide 100Ah at a 300A load and conversely 100Ah at a 0.5A load. This simply does not exist in the real world but LiFEPO4 comes close.... The reality is that it might provide about 90Ah at 300A and 110Ah at 0.5A..

Do that with a flooded lead acid 100Ah battery:

100Ah Battery 300A Load = 33Ah
100Ah Battery 0.5A Load = More than 100Ah

*Learn the MATH and DO NOT trust others to do it for you

*Define your BOX/REALISTIC USE

*Be HONEST with yourself and your MATH

If you do those three things you will have a good outcome... Ignore the MATH, don't be HONEST with yourself, and don't clearly DEFINE your USE and you will not be as happy as you should be...

 

[alctel]

Turns out the Torqueedo outboards are made for boasts 4 tons and under, and mines just over 6.

Christian, I'd love to see your list if you are willing to share it. Maine Sail, I'm all about the maths . I guess AGM batteries are effected by Peukert's correction at roughly the same rate as lead acid?

 

[christian.hess]

The only thing I can say to help you keep everyone around you honest in this endevour is to:

Trust Ohm's Law - Many here and elsewhere try to re-wire it, but as of yet no one has been successful.. For your use a useful calculation is below...

Convert Watts to Amps at fixed voltage:

Watts ÷ Volts = Amps

eg:
5000W ÷ 12V = 417A
5000W ÷ 48V = 104A
5000W ÷ 72V = 69A

Never Forget Peukert - When dealing with high load applications such as e-boats one simply can not ignore Peukerts Law when dealing with lead acid batteries. You will find very, very few e/conversion companies who are up front about this point...

Don't ignore Coulombic Efficiency - Lead acid batteries require that more energy be put back in than you took out.

A 100Ah lead acid battery is only a 100Ah battery when used at and loaded at 5A at 80F, when new or just broken in.... Every other load & temp range either above or below the 20 hour rate at 80F results in CHANGES the batteries 20 hour rated Ah capacity. Cycle life and DOD also impact Ah capacity.. Anyone telling you otherwise is really not qualified to be doing so.

LiFePO4 cells have minimal Peukert's corrections but they are still not a Peukert of 1.0..... A 100Ah battery with a 1.0 Peukert would provide 100Ah at a 300A load and conversely 100Ah at a 0.5A load. This simply does not exist in the real world but LiFEPO4 comes close.... The reality is that it might provide about 90Ah at 300A and 110Ah at 0.5A..

Do that with a flooded lead acid 100Ah battery:

100Ah Battery 300A Load = 33Ah
100Ah Battery 0.5A Load = More than 100Ah

*Learn the MATH and DO NOT trust others to do it for you

*Define your BOX/REALISTIC USE

*Be HONEST with yourself and your MATH

If you do those three things you will have a good outcome... Ignore the MATH, don't be HONEST with yourself, and don't clearly DEFINE your USE and you will not be as happy as you should be...

thats what Im talking about!

very well said...as usual others say things much better than me when it comes to the technical aspect however what mainsail says echoes my conservative nature

many will try to rewrite what can be done regarding electrics like for example say they have ever lasting range IF they use a honda 2000 generator non stop

if thats the case I would much rather have a 2 banger yanmar chugging along for days at a time as I dont have 2 possibilities of failure i.e motor and generator and a third the controller

now if you told me I never use my inboard more than 2 3 hours at a time then ELECTRIC IS PERFECT FOR YOU

and to echo that its also perfect for frugal cruisers who only use the inboard to enter port, anchor and or leave for the next anchorage

for some reason cruising these days is consider 75% motoring and 25% sailing

call me stupid or old school but thats not what I did or do and I would shoot myself before i EVER cruised like that.

for example there are solo atlantic sailors, volvo boats and the like today that are specing electric only inboards are they are the perfect light alternative to a diesel to be use only to motor in and out of ports...

the spanish(catalonian) have developed quite a few nice versions of this

anywhoo

let me try to compile this list of favourites regarding electric I have been doing this last year

hope it helps...

 

[christian.hess]

Turns out the Torqueedo outboards are made for boasts 4 tons and under, and mines just over 6.

Christian, I'd love to see your list if you are willing to share it. Maine Sail, I'm all about the maths . I guess AGM batteries are effected by Peukert's correction at roughly the same rate as lead acid?

devils advocate here

how does the motor know the difference? only you will, at the most extreme you will notice some hogher temps on the motor...a change of prop can fix this or just using the motor at less than full throttle too...

however Im not a fan of outboards on REALLY big boats...however I have seen cases of people using even more underspecd engines in special cases

even my boat at 14,500 I used an old 1977 evinrude 15hp longshaft outboard...standard prop and in flat and normal sailing weather I could acheive hull speed...of course I didnt use it to steer into 50knots entering a dangerous harbor at night

again USEAGE.

many use underspecd engines to motor a boat, racers are famous for this...

anywho one famous example is bernard moitissier on joshua...a bmw or peugot 2 banger around 10hp on a 39 ft steel heavy as crap boat

yet he could do 4 knots or so. again only using it to enter port and stay "light"

anywhooo

 

[mitiempo]

Except in calm weather there is no way to keep an outboard propeller in the water all the time on a 36' sailboat.

Outside of this harbor it is not always calm, and alctel is moored only 100 yards or so from me.

As far as electric, I fail to see any advantage to a diesel electric system as it is much more expensive than a diesel by itself. Not to mention more complicated which means more to go wrong. Electric without a generator of some kind does not work unless you are using it strictly to come and go from a harbor where you plug in to recharge. To charge a 72 volt battery bank that will give you any appreciable range you would need more solar panels than you have room for. Wind gens with a high enough output that are quiet and don't shake the boat are 3 -4k each.

Lithium is the best battery system if you do go electric and not that much more expensive than top quality Agm batteries (Lifeline) when cycling and capacity are taken into account.

I can see you spending a lot of money and ending up with less usability than you currently have. It is pretty hard to beat a simple reliable diesel.

Remember the calm weather we have in the summer in the Georgia Straight and the Gulf Islands and the hours spent under power if you want to go anywhere in a reasonable time. The summer's normal lack of wind negates any useful return from wind gens also so solar would be the only quiet charging.

 

[christian.hess]

Except in calm weather there is no way to keep an outboard propeller in the water all the time on a 36' sailboat.

says who? what boat, what outboard what mount?

do you happen to mean ROUGH WEATHER? as in flat water and calm weather I had no problem doing so!

as many others dont eaither mostly on smaller boats and my boat is 3 feet high off the water at the transom

again this outboard was used to maneuver not power sail at 7 knots at a 45 degree heel...

again reading comp

 

[Maine Sail]

exactly my point...people need to to improve their reading comprehension here as my main point is USEAGE

how you use and where you use your inboard DICTATES what sort of engine or electric or hybrud you should have

my examples are clear mi tiempo they are not "grey" if you read you will see this as well as my other posts of similar nature

in my case I was expressing that even a crappy outboard can deal pushing a 36 ft boat in calm to choppy weather...it can even powersail a bit at slight angles

is it ideal NO

is it perfect NO

does it work for how I used it down there YES

can I anchor and maneuver with it YES

is it the perfect solution for the georgia straights NO

is that anywhere in my post NO

did you not see that I mentioned I preffer diesels in some cases YES

again people need to read what others post in order to communicate correctly...It seems ONCE AGAIN and unfortunately you mitiempo which I held in high esteem that people only read what they want, only post what they want and hardly pay attention to what others say

thats the best way to ruin a thoughtfull and intellectual conversation...simply by not paying attention.

I read a great quote yesterday

"LUCK is largely a matter of paying attention" I would add progress and smart conversation is largely a matter of paying attention

cheers

I suspect Brian was being more specific to the OP, who is in Victoria BC...

Here in Maine with 10-20' tides, tidal rivers with strong currents, the vast majority of vessels residing on moorings, light summer winds and cold water that reduces usable battery capacity, e-conversions fit into a pretty small box too. Still there are boxes where they fit into, even in Maine.

The point I think we are all making is to clearly define your box, use and expectations and then use math to see if what you want to do can work.. In many instances it can and in others it simply becomes a fairytale...

I have consulted with numerous customers over the last 6 years who wanted to do an e-conversion. Every single one of them had been grossly mislead on the realities, math and capabilities. This I find extremely frustrating!! Two did convert but they had boxes that were perfect fits for an e-conversion...

 

[christian.hess]

I just get frustrated TOO

sorry for the rant however things have to be taken in context

one huge issue I have is when you have misleading information that then gets passed on spun into something unreal and then to add insult to injury its not even related to the original question...

electric is absolutely fine for those that understand their limits.

I empashise UNDERSTAND some people dont understand this and go on a tirade on how useless electric is when this is NOT SO.

the same can be said for an outboard I guess...

thats my gripe

OP send me your email and Ill send you that list of miscellaneous electric stuff I had going on for my boat

given we are very similar boats and builds I think you can get it done...

howeve like main sail says define your BOX FIRST

edit I deleted my post as it wasnt being helpful to the op

thanks main

 

[JonEisberg]

I can see you spending a lot of money and ending up with less usability than you currently have. It is pretty hard to beat a simple reliable diesel.

Truer words are rarely spoken...

It would help to know a bit more about the OP's intended usage of the boat, but I'm guessing a 36' Hunter will likely be used for a bit more than afternoon daysails...

First time I started hearing much about electric power, was about 10 years ago when the niche of high-end daysailors from Morris, Hinckley, Alerion et al started to appear... Some of them, like the Hinckley 42 that Jimmy Buffett fell for (briefly), featured electric power:

Bells, whistles: The Solomon Technologies electric "pancake" engine has a single joystick on the steering pedestal and is powered by a dozen 12-volt batteries charged by a Fischer Panda 4.5-kilowatt generator. The retractable, hydraulic, bulb-tipped fin keel rides up and down in a carbon-fiber centerboard trunk. A remote winch drive for the main halyard on a "phone cord" enables a singlehander to walk forward to monitor the raising of the full-batten, roachy North 3DL main. The Hall Spars carbon mast has a faux wood finish, as does the Leisure Furl in-boom furler. In supporting roles: rod rigging and a Vectran backstay. The jib furling drum is belowdecks; a furling line is led aft. The mainsheet is hydraulically powered. All sheets are led to pods within reach of the helmsman. The hull has a Kevlar shell and a vacuum-infused carbon-fiber inner skin.

Hinckley DS42, Morris 36, Friendship 40 Daysailor Reviews | Cruising World

Aside from the fact that the LAST thing I'd ever want my boat to be reliant upon for power would be a freakin' Fischer-Panda generator, I just don't see how such an application for these kind of boats works, unless the boat lives at a dock, and is plugged in between sails... People like Buffett aren't gonna be piling solar panel arrays, or wind generators, onto their Faberge' Egg Boats with Faux-Wood Carbon Fiber spars, after all...

)

 

[Maine Sail]

the LAST thing I'd ever want my boat to be reliant upon for power would be a freakin' Fischer-Panda generator,

Clearly spoken from experience.... I concur.....

 

[christian.hess]

fischer panda sucks big ones

op I have a list for you Ill be sending you...good reading to get started

 

[UnionPacific]

Turns out the Torqueedo outboards are made for boasts 4 tons and under, and mines just over 6.

Torqeedo Deep Blue, electric outboard, Boats using large electric motors

 

[mitiempo]

Power isn't the issue. In any but calm seas the prop wouldn't stay in the water.

Not to mention the cost - a new diesel would be a lot less.
Torqeedo Deep Blue electric inboard and outboard system

 

[alctel]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback and esp CH for the links

The Torqueedo line is really expensive, as already mentioned. I think if I go through with this I'll put my own system together, using lithium batteries - they've got a ton cheaper recently and I'm hoping that new tesla battery factory opening in the US that they will get cheaper still! This website is selling 200AH 3.2v cells for $229
http://www.cloudelectric.com/product-p/liy-3.2v-200ah.htm

 

[mitiempo]

They are coming down in price. Never heard of that brand though. Balqon or Calb are common. But that is just the cells - a lot more is needed.

They are not exactly plug and play yet. By the time you have them together with a BMS and have adjusted your charging system to match - external alt regulator etc - the price will be a lot higher. Here is a link explaining what is involved. LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com