[outbound]

A recurring theme on recent threads had been the suitability of various boats or features for open water transits. Repetitively folk infer " if it's gowing to happen...it will happen out there".
At dinner last night people from U.K., Australia, Canada, both coasts of U.S. who made it to BVIs reported what broke and when. When were their hairy moments. When they were scared or very stressed. All seemed to involve coastal sailing or day hops between islands.
This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.
Off shore even with no weather fax coming in and the radar off you can see the weather. Coastal that thunderstorm can come over that hill and be on you in a blink. Waves break when their bottom hits the bottom of the ocean. Rather be in a 10' swell with a long period than 5-6' chop.
Offshore being 25 or 50 or even 100m off your position doesn't matter. Near shore a few yards maybe critical.
Before leaving to go offshore everything is as perfect as you can make it. Near shore. "aw I wont need it today" so let's go sailing I'll fix tomorrow.
Offshore crew is hand picked. Near shore " let's take Joe and Joan we owe them a dinner.
If you value your life you won't go offshore unless in an fully found offshore capable boat. Near shore "whatever- it will serve.
In short although "it's waves not the wind that will kill you" is true. It's also true it's the hard edges of the ocean that create a lot of the stress along with the other idiots in ships and boats.
I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.

 

[Don L]

I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.

Definitely more dangerous near shore.

Near as I can tell the only dangers that exist off shore that don't exist near shore are Krakens and killer giant squids. Meanwhile near shore there are rocks, shoals, boats, chop etc etc

 

[JonEisberg]

This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.

Absolutely, but with one important caveat... That the boat you be taking "offshore" be well suited to handling whatever it might encounter out there, and not place excessive demands upon a shorthanded crew...

Otherwise, all things being equal, there's little comparison between the amount of stuff that can go wrong, or the potential consequences thereof, between coastal and open water sailing...

For me, having grown up on the Jersey Shore, running inlets like those to be found between Shinnecock and the Outer Banks has always provided some of the most hair-raising and least forgiving situations I've ever had on the water... In my experience, running a sportfisherman or motor yacht down the East coast, constantly running in and out of inlets or along certain stretches of the ICW, is FAR more stressful than taking something like a Valiant 42 direct to the Islands... There's just so much more that can go wrong, so many more hazards to encounter, so much less margin for error, and with little more than a bit of bad luck, or a mechanical failure at precisely the wrong time, one could easily lose or damage a boat heavily...

One thing I'll never understand, why it is so hard for so many people plowing down the ICW to appreciate, that there is simply SO much less that can go wrong running outside, instead...

 

[outbound]

Thanks Don
Also think even though weather forecasts are good for 4 days max the statement that coastal production boats won't see dangerous weather is untrue.
The worse weather I've seen is typically coastal. Pressure to get from point B to point A due to need to return to work or other appointment. Offshore no need to beat to weather against strong winds. Plenty of room to hove too and wait. We can make up time after it blows through.
Also near shore even moderate waves break. Waves bounce off the coast giving confused seas. Wave periods are shorter. Saying coastal boats need not be as strong I think is misleading. Yes this is true if you only daysail. But if you cruise your boat should be ocean safe as well as be able to handle the often more difficult coastal environment.
That ocean boat that tracks like a train also needs to get in the last slip in with the1 million dollar boat next to it.
Think any discussion of blue water boats is just silly.
Once it leaves the dock if it going to gone for awhile discussion should be - is it a good strong boat able to handle whatever it needs to or not.
Dividing line is it a fair weather daysailor to party on or race or is it an ocean boat.

 

[mbianka]

Definitely more dangerous near shore.

Near as I can tell the only dangers that exist off shore that don't exist near shore are Krakens and killer giant squids. Meanwhile near shore there are rocks, shoals, boats, chop etc etc

Yes, surfing into Shinecock inlet for the first time, at night, alone was not something I would care to repeat. I'd rather take a chance out there with the Kracken. I'll keep a sharp knife handy as I have a hunch squid steaks could be mighty tasty. Though some hazards that were once a concern "out there" have also migrated closer to shore these days: THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: BIG MAMMALS AND THE BIG APPLE

 

[capta]

I couldn't agree more; rocks sink boats, but a well found vessel should not founder at sea.
If you are 15 miles off on your navigation half way between Bermuda and the VI, it isn't much of a problem, but if you are half a mile off between St. John and Virgin Gorda, you might run right into an island, or two.
The weather thing I'm much less in agreement with. Even when underway on a coastal passage, I can usually get a TV station with a good weather report and great visuals. My SiriusXM Marine Weather gives me a great deal more comprehensive information than any radio broadcast, but that is not available once you are too far out.
At sea, you may be able to see a bit more of the weather coming toward you, but you have no idea of it's intensity and duration. Weather reports and routers can only give broad generalizations, not accurate, area specific information equal to what SiriusXM Marine Weather or a TV or Weather Channel IR loop gives us.
So, there is a trade off as a navigator and captain; I can relax much more offshore as far as traffic and obstructions are concerned. But the information on weather is certainly much better close to shore, and that is a good thing, too. I would forgo AIS and a lot of the fancy new gewgaws for SiriusXM Marine Weather on my chartplotter down here, in a heartbeat.

 

[chall03]

I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.

I'm most certainly not more experienced than you but I agree wholeheartedly.

Coastal sailing here around Sydney is in blustery, unpredictable conditions with barred entrances the norm on this coast if you do decide to seek shelter. You add in a good bit of shipping, plenty of fish traps, fishing boats and the fact that you in are in the Tasman Sea and it is not happy go lucky sailing in anything but the best of conditions.(and even then there is the ever constant threat of the situation changing and getting caught out).

Likewise, coastal sailing the otherside of the Tasman around New Zealand where 45 knots is just a good day sailing is not somewhere I would wish to be in a ill suited boat.

Give me a tradewind crossing anyday.

Thus is the silliness of the Bluewater vs Coastal debate. It is a nonsense. If a boat can't take heavy weather then it is not a boat I would wish to be in 2 miles from shore or 200 miles from shore.

 

[Omatako]

I'll keep a sharp knife handy as I have a hunch squid steaks could be mighty tasty.

Mmmmmm . . . . . I have a hunch that you'll probably come second in the unlikely event that you should meet a giant squid.

My wife gets noticeably anxious when approaching landfall and with good reason. Close to shore you'll find wind eddies, currents and a range of unmovable, unforgiving and often invisible obstacles that you boat won't enjoy meeting.

In the well-traveled subject of offshore-capable boats on this board, I have commented that I believe a poor quality boat with a good skipper is better than a great boat with a poor quality skipper. I stand by that comment with the proviso that the boat shouldn't be a complete piece of junk.

We have sailed in a wide range of conditions both at sea and coastal, from 80 knots of wind 400nm from land to a strong current set in a harbor approach with no motor and a dying wind. I was frightened by both events at the time but I would sooner repeat the former than the latter,

Whilst sailing at sea is less stressful, the prospect of a new landfall is (for me) more exciting. It is the essence of why we go cruising.

 

[dorymate1]

Open Water - Close Water Just give me water.
Both have their mind numbing possibilities & challenges
That's why we go.

I don't think offshore sailors are as afraid of inshore as only inshore sailors are offshore.

Off shore rules

 

[outbound]

My point about the weather is best expressed by thinking about these situations.
You are on passage. You see a line of squalls miles off. You have a good chance of dancing through them or at least be on the correct side as they pass through.
Your in a bay. Could be Narragansett or one of the fjords in Maine. Could be anywhere you have no choice but to navigate a thin strip of water between high lands. Not only do you have no chance of changing your course but you may struggle to shorten sail before the squall hits.
Yes getting weather off the satphone or Ssb is great. But you can also see weather and act accordingly. Yes radar scope or your own radar with rain tuned down is wonderful but often when coastal you are stuck with a fixed heading.
Interestingly fellow sailor told me that after making love or completely a passage he is ecstatic. But then gets sad for awhile. Sometimes the landfall gives mixed emotions.

 

[aloof]

If one has high anxiety on a passage, either coastal or offshore, one is doing something wrong. This is supposed to be relaxing.

 

[chall03]

My point about the weather is best expressed by thinking about these situations.
You are on passage. You see a line of squalls miles off. You have a good chance of dancing through them or at least be on the correct side as they pass through.
Your in a bay. Could be Narragansett or one of the fjords in Maine. Could be anywhere you have no choice but to navigate a thin strip of water between high lands. Not only do you have no chance of changing your course but you may struggle to shorten sail before the squall hits.
Yes getting weather off the satphone or Ssb is great. But you can also see weather and act accordingly. Yes radar scope or your own radar with rain tuned down is wonderful but often when coastal you are stuck with a fixed heading.
Interestingly fellow sailor told me that after making love or completely a passage he is ecstatic. But then gets sad for awhile. Sometimes the landfall gives mixed emotions.

We have been in that situation. A couple of years ago we were exiting Pancake Creek, a popular anchorage in North Queensland with a dogleg entrance between a Sandbar and a Rocky headland.

As we exited we were raising our main when we saw an approaching squall. We went through the motions of reefing and preparing the boat, however as we were exiting a popular anchorage first thing in the morning, with us and now just to seaward of us were about another 10 vessels doing the same thing( as we were the smaller and slower vessel under power).

When the squall hit visibility reduced dramatically, and with a lee shore on one side and 10 now invisible vessels in close proximity to seaward it was a very tense half an hour.

 

[outbound]

Chall
I had thought of cruising oz. You are scaring me away.
Jon
Do you think we can ever get Smackdaddy to understand there are good boats and not so much boats. Production,age, size, rating aren't the determining factors. Rather be in a Fisher 46 than many current production boats even though the fisher is EU B. A good boat is good regardless of where she is.

 

[Omatako]

If one has high anxiety on a passage, either coastal or offshore, one is doing something wrong. This is supposed to be relaxing.

There are so many retorts to that statement. I'll start.

- If you are able to watch the wind rise from 15 knots to 80 knots in 5 hours without growing anxiety, you are seriously relaxed - perhaps to the point of foolhardiness.

-One does not have to do something wrong to get caught in quickly changing weather.

- I was not doing anything wrong when a squash zone happened along but that didn't stop anxiety going through the roof.

- If you are in a serious blow and you're not scared, you're either very experienced or very stupid. Fear helps you survive.

 

[zeehag]

passages are easier with practice and confidence in your own sailing skill. until you are conf¡dent in your sailing skills then you will be nervous on a passage .
it is not the boat but the sailor. more practice in open ocean , the more skill you will have. sailing lee shores is always a concern, but is not a scary thing unless ye screw up badly.
any boat can go around the world. is the sailor who makes the boat go where it is supposed to go.

 

[outbound]

But gentleman in recent times we read about highly skilled sailors with great experience getting into serious trouble and abandoning multi million dollar yachts mid ocean or pulling down rigs running aground or being lost at sea. My interfence is:
Schedules kill
Fewer boats are being made that allow you to close down shop and passively survive the storm.
I feel part of the definition of a good boat is that it will take care of you. Kind of like the old saw
A monohull takes care of you but you take care of a multi.

 

[MedSailor]

It's only more dangerous near shore because that's where the production boats sail.

Medsailor

 

[capta]

Fewer boats are being made that allow you to close down shop and passively survive the storm.
I feel part of the definition of a good boat is that it will take care of you. Kind of like the old saw
A monohull takes care of you but you take care of a multi.

When I began sailing, there were few boat designs to choose from. They were all heavy displacement, rather slow and ponderous, but they could take a beating, and come out of it all with little damage and without the crew needing to call for help (which didn't exist at that time anyway). Some had two pointy ends and others had a bit of a cutaway forward, but all in all they were much the same. There were even some made from stone that were pretty good sea boats!
With all the choices out there today and all the opinions, from the neophyte to the expert so easily available on the web, the information overload for the first time buyer must be staggering.
So, I'd have to agree with you outbound; a good boat will take care of her crew long after they have reached their limit to do so for themselves.

 

[chuck5499]

Off shore even with no weather fax coming in and the radar off you can see the weather. Coastal that thunderstorm can come over that hill and be on you in a blink.

Before leaving to go offshore everything is as perfect as you can make it. Near shore. "aw I wont need it today" so let's go sailing I'll fix tomorrow.
Offshore crew is hand picked. Near shore " let's take Joe and Joan we owe them a dinner.

I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.

My first comment would be it is no difference in driving a freeway across say Kansas and then getting off a ramp into downtown Kansas City. Everything changes, you are more alert, a bit more cautious, pay more attention ect.
No difference at sea. Last year we made 30+ new ports of call. We do get more alert, watch harder, concentrate more, spend more time looking at cruising guides on what to expect, ect. So not a big deal. on the first part.

Second you comment on wx at sea I find nonsense. We do a lot of long passages and run radar when out, at night and even if close in turn the radar on to check 24nm out to see if we got wx coming or if we even see clouds we turn it on. We also check wx at least once a day, before we begin the day or in on a multiday passage we check in the morning by downloading gribs and wx fax off our ssb. Then we plan accordingly.

We make sure our boat is always as perfect as we can make it regardless of a day sail or an ocean passage. Makes no difference to us. If it is not ready we don't go. Does it means things don't break while we are doing a day sail? Sure do as we blew out a main crossing the Italian boot and lost our alternator on a day hop down the Italian eastern coast. But before we left all was working properly. If you go out with a broken boat you are asking for trouble.

As for crew, well we do not take crew. Did that a couple of times and it did not work out so we just don't do it. We have taken a couple of people out on day sails but again everything is in place for a day sail and we expect nothing from them except conversation as they will not be sailing our boat.

For us it is not stress just thinking and looking and analyzing and talking with each other as we head in. Oh of course I am driving instead of otto pelo who does the majority of driving for us when we are out.

 

[outbound]

Chuck
We have very similar protocols except I like to get in 6-8h of sleep a day so I'm obligated to take on crew. I also try to get weather every 6 hours for something to do.
I find weather downloads extremely helpful. There is great info in a synoptic overview or even a local regional forecast but neither tell you the weather right where you are. Nor does your recording barometer. Your eyes do that. Radar gives you a 360 view offshore but you commonly lose the sector over land when coastal even if you have a red light at the top of your mast.
There's a joke in New England. If you don't like the weather wait 5 minutes. Maybe there aren't so many very local disturbances where you are. For us when coastal near home there are. Another common joke amongst New England sailors is the frequent discrepancy between NOAA and what we experience.
Lastly many folks work or have other obligations. They have limited time. When they get to the boat they have a choice. Do I fix this problem or go sailing and put off the job. Sometimes even on coastal cruises there is a schedule so jobs are put off due to the pressure of time. I am happy for you that apparently you do not suffer under the restrictions many others labor under. The remote cockpit mic is broken. Cay electronics can't get a replacement for a week. Company is flying down today. I will leave with them and a broken mic. The one at nav station is fine. I'll put a handheld in the cockpit. Do I stay in the harbor and ruin their vacation? I think not.
I've heard from others than the eastern med the sailing can be quite challenging. The flip side of our coastal weather are the lovely days of steady 10-15 under clear skies. This leads some to believe coastal is less stressful then ocean and its that to which I hoped the conversation would be directed.
Should leave tomorrow for a week to 10 days. Probably no wifi at times. Love you guys but not to point to follow on satphone or Ssb. Please continue to contribute. will,catch up later.