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High anxiety-passage v. Coastal

10318 Views 85 Replies 24 Participants Last post by outbound, Apr 20, 2015

outbound

Discussion Starter · Mar 7, 2015 (Edited)

A recurring theme on recent threads had been the suitability of various boats or features for open water transits. Repetitively folk infer " if it's gowing to happen...it will happen out there".
At dinner last night people from U.K., Australia, Canada, both coasts of U.S. who made it to BVIs reported what broke and when. When were their hairy moments. When they were scared or very stressed. All seemed to involve coastal sailing or day hops between islands.
This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.
Off shore even with no weather fax coming in and the radar off you can see the weather. Coastal that thunderstorm can come over that hill and be on you in a blink. Waves break when their bottom hits the bottom of the ocean. Rather be in a 10' swell with a long period than 5-6' chop.
Offshore being 25 or 50 or even 100m off your position doesn't matter. Near shore a few yards maybe critical.
Before leaving to go offshore everything is as perfect as you can make it. Near shore. "aw I wont need it today" so let's go sailing I'll fix tomorrow.
Offshore crew is hand picked. Near shore " let's take Joe and Joan we owe them a dinner.
If you value your life you won't go offshore unless in an fully found offshore capable boat. Near shore "whatever- it will serve.
In short although "it's waves not the wind that will kill you" is true. It's also true it's the hard edges of the ocean that create a lot of the stress along with the other idiots in ships and boats.
I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.

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chall03

· #41 · Mar 16, 2015

We should be in Thailand in about two years as well, all being well.

Yes we are closer, but our boat is smaller and slower and the crew a little less help on watch.

aeventyr60's shout when we all get there

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jerryrlitton

· #42 · Mar 16, 2015

chall03 said:
We should be in Thailand in about two years as well, all being well.

Yes we are closer, but our boat is smaller and slower and the crew a little less help on watch.

aeventyr60's shout when we all get there

Come on over, the water is fine.

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aeventyr60

· #43 · Mar 16, 2015

outbound said:
That's the plan!!!!
Wife retires in 2 years. Mess around in eastern then western Caribbean. Make sure we are up to it and still want to do it. Then through the canal and off we go. Can't wait. Totally psyched. She wants Seven Star to get us back from Thailand. Just hope I can scrape together the boat units. Can't believe what they and Dockwise get.

By the time you get this far you will be a seasoned blue water sailor and wouldn't dream of shipping your boat on a boat. It''s all down hill from here to the ol caribe, well, except for that nasty bit down the Africa Coast.

outbound

Discussion Starter · #44 · Mar 16, 2015

Thanks for the encouragement. Maybe we can get a section like the cheakepeak folks have here on SN.:laugher

JonEisberg

· #45 · Mar 17, 2015 (Edited)

davidpm said:
The very idea of dealing with bad weather for several consecutive several days and attended loss of sleep and broken gear makes off-shore more challenging.

Sorry, but anyone who feels seriously challenged by the very IDEA that one might have to deal with a prolonged period of serious weather has no business being out there to begin with, and had best confine their sailing to within cell phone range of SeaTow...

Also, the extent to which a boat might be 'battered' by heavy weather offshore is generally, in my view, greatly overstated... If things get that bad, where the boat and crew is being punished by the conditions, there's often a pretty simple alternative: just HEAVE-TO, for chrissake! And yet, it's amazing how rarely this most basic of seamanlike tactics seems to be employed these days... Can anyone recall a particular instance of a boat in the Caribbean 1500 or Salty Dawg Rallies simply taking the decision to park it for awhile, go easy on the boat for a bit, and let the crew get some rest, and re-group? Perhaps someone has done it, but it's certainly rarely done, everyone seems to think they have to keep moving at all costs... A contributing factor, of course, might be that so many of today's Latest and Greatest boats can be rather difficult to be make to heave-to properly... But there is no greater 'Stress Reliever' in rough weather offshore than heaving-to, nothing else even comes close...

Scott & Kitty Kuhner, describing their first of 2 circumnavigations, this on on a 30' Allied Seawind, which they prepped for by reading Eric Hiscock

S&K: One thing we learned from the Hiscocks before we set sail was that whenever they encountered heavy weather, they'd heave-to. We'd do the same thing. We hove-to between Rarotonga and Bora Bora for three days in 35 to 45 knots. Seas were breaking over the boat, green water every 15 or 20 minutes. But we never worried about the boat. It was just a matter of when it was going to end. She hove-to very well, and generally it was very comfortable.

BWS: It's sundown, the wind is gusting to 35, and the glass is still falling? What did you do with the Seawind?

S&K: Simple. We'd heave-to. If we're running downwind, we fly the twin storm jibs. Sustained 35-plus with plenty of sea room, we'll just heave-to.

» She?ll Cross the Ocean if You Will

davidpm said:
Off-shore if something go wrong it is a big deal to get help and may take days and often the loss of your boat. Near shore help is usually only an hour or so away and the boat can typically be saved.

Help being "within an hour of so" presupposes you're sailing in places like Chesapeake Bay, or Long Island Sound... I can think of many places where being within 2 miles of land, may as well be 500 for all intents and purposes, in terms of how quickly "help" could be on the scene...

In addition, boats are hardly "often lost" offshore when things go wrong, such catastrophic events are actually rather rare... Now, if you really mean they are sometimes DISCARDED, that's quite another matter, and it does seem to be occurring with increasing frequency, and the comparative ease with which offshore rescues can summoned, and effected today...

The extent to which the notion of self-sufficiency or self-rescue has gone by the boards today is one of the more striking changes I've seen over my lifetime on the water... When I was taught to sail as a kid, one of the first things drummed into us by our mentors, was that each of us was solely responsible for getting our little boats back to shore, and anyone who required outside assistance to do so suffered a sort of youthful Public Shaming

Obviously, there can be circumstances where outside assistance is absolutely required, and the smart thing to do... But again, the prevalent mindset I see today to "Call for Help" as the first response to trouble, it's really quite stunning... The immediacy with which people will call SeaTow after running aground on the ICW at or near low tide, for instance, it never ceases to amaze...

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ccriders

· #46 · Mar 17, 2015

JonEisberg said:
A contributing factor, of course, might be that so many of today's Latest and Greatest boats can be rather difficult to be make to heave-to properly... But there is no greater 'Stress Reliever' in rough weather offshore than heaving-to, nothing else even comes close...

I've read elsewhere here that the Jordan Series Drogue accomplishes the same calming in storm situations. Would you care to compare and contrast heaving-to vs jsd? Also what boat configurations make heaving to difficult? Would the jsd work where heaving-to won't? Has "lying a hull" been discounted?
Thanks,
John

Minnewaska

· #47 · Mar 17, 2015

Lying a-hull is the worst choice in serious seas. The JSD must be sailed against and some say brings the risk of a breaking wave over the stern that could damage the boat, although, not sink it. Heaving to is great, unless your boat doesn't heave to well, or winds shift suddenly and she self tacks. A parachute anchor, off the bow, can pull out of the face of a wave and jar the boat, or worse, break a deck cleat.

I've recemtly become curious whether one can run a JSD off the bow, like a parachute.

aeventyr60

· #48 · Mar 17, 2015

Most of the offshore voyaging has been magic! It's what I dreamed about, prepared for and live for. Dream passages to the Gaalpagos, cross the Pacific to the Marquessa, trade wind sailing at it's finest. Distance landfalls made possible buy a well found boat and able crew. Sure the NW passage down the Oregon/ Washingtoncoast were not much fun, and the nasty trip from Tonga to new Zealand would cause many to give it all up. Easy sail plan on a cutter rigged boat, trysail on a second track. stout storm jib all have been used. If you will not learn to heave to and have the appropriate heavy weather gear onboard, then your voyaging life will be short. Take the time to to learn how your boat heaves too..practice in the light stuff, when it gets a bit lumpy, heave too. Make a cuppa, roast a chicken, take a well deserved sleep, hey I racked out for 20 hours hove too after a very nasty series of lows off the South Island of New Zealand, pure bliss that ol heaving too...

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outbound

Discussion Starter · #49 · Mar 17, 2015 (Edited)

As pointed out on a another thread some current production boats would seem to be at risk of down flooding if pooped while using a JSD. I carry one. During construction of my boat asked stern cleats be moved as far aft as feasible. That blacking plates not washers be employed. Also had stainless plate placed under cleat and run back to edge of deck to minimize chafe. I might lose my Bimini but won't lose my boat.
I have tried to hove to with triple reefed main and storm jib. Best I can achieve is a fore reach. Have yet to need to employ either tactic but nice to know there are there.
Think with modern boats they are less likely to behave well lying to any sort of sea anchor. Read the JSD site for more info and read about history of boats using JSD v. sea anchor. Maybe a better technique for multis but lead to understand they have moved away from them as well.
Know two different boats/sailors who said when doing the clock they never saw more than 40 and that briefly. Think they sailed in season and were lucky. Still once you know you have a technique that will allow you to button up the boat and lie down below this is not an issue of daily concern and stress.

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JonEisberg

· #50 · Mar 17, 2015

outbound said:
I have tried to hove to with triple reefed main and storm jib. Best I can achieve is a fore reach. Have yet to need to employ either tactic but nice to know there are there.

John Harries has an interesting suggestion that might work for you, streaming an undersized drogue (a partial section of your Series Drogue would probably do nicely) to help hold the bow up, and inhibit the tendency to want to fore-reach...

How to Stop Wave Strikes While Heaved-to in a Sailboat Offshore in a Storm

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JonEisberg

· #51 · Mar 17, 2015

aeventyr60 said:
Most of the offshore voyaging has been magic! It's what I dreamed about, prepared for and live for. Dream passages to the Gaalpagos, cross the Pacific to the Marquessa, trade wind sailing at it's finest. Distance landfalls made possible buy a well found boat and able crew. Sure the NW passage down the Oregon/ Washingtoncoast were not much fun, and the nasty trip from Tonga to new Zealand would cause many to give it all up. Easy sail plan on a cutter rigged boat, trysail on a second track. stout storm jib all have been used. If you will not learn to heave to and have the appropriate heavy weather gear onboard, then your voyaging life will be short. Take the time to to learn how your boat heaves too..practice in the light stuff, when it gets a bit lumpy, heave too. Make a cuppa, roast a chicken, take a well deserved sleep, hey I racked out for 20 hours hove too after a very nasty series of lows off the South Island of New Zealand, pure bliss that ol heaving too...

Your post gets to the heart of a point I've tried to make repeatedly, how many people's attitude towards offshore sailing and passagemaking has changed as 'Voyaging' has morphed into more of a 'Lifestyle', as opposed as an 'Activity' based upon a love of sailing, combined with a heavy dose of wanderlust...

It's amazing how few cruisers today seem to view passagemaking as a truly unique adventure, and something to savor, or revel in... Most view passages with trepidation, and as something simply to be ENDURED as the price of admission to the next destination where they can once again, begin living the Cruising Lifestyle... Really a pity, how many folks really don't appreciate the actual SAILING, and the rare ability in today's world to truly "check out", and experience the raw beauty of nature to be found out there, perhaps even managing to go a day or two without checking email, or posting to a blog...

Everyone seems to want to get a passage over with as quickly as possible, and view something like heaving-to, or reducing sail at night when squalls might be encountered, as undesirable tactics that will only serve to prolong the 'misery' of offshore sailing...

I've been a runner (well, more of a "jogger", actually) for most of my life, yet I've never experienced the "Runner's High" that many serious runners speak of... But I have experienced a sort of 'Atlantic High' on some passages, and it is something very special indeed, when you actually manage to have somewhat mixed feelings upon arriving at your destination, tinged with a bit of regret that the sailing is nearly over...

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aeventyr60

· #52 · Mar 17, 2015

Yes, Exactly. On a recent light wind passage from the South West coast of Palawan, Philippines back to our secret spot in the South China Sea, Malaysian waters, we kinda had that Nirvana offshore experience that so many lust for. Seven months of day sailing, coral infested waters, extremely challenging coastal cruising, found us greatly relieved to be offshore. Average winds of 10 knots, kite out, slowly making our way South across tha Palawan passage, skirting the "dangerous ground, wanting to go a bit further North into the hotly contested Spratly group, days of endless sailing, catching a mahi mahi, fish tacos on the bbg, Cinco de mayo fell and we were well into a few margaritas, fish jumping everywhere, knew it was really going on when my gal said, lets not hurry, don't turn on the engine, quiet is nice, lets go slow., we will get to the next paradise soon enough...and we did, well stocked up on Subic Bay, yankee style provisions, a full tank of diesel and 4 months of hiking, snorkeling, fishing and diving to get us ready for two months of trekking in the Himalaya....

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JonEisberg

· #53 · Mar 17, 2015

ccriders said:
I've read elsewhere here that the Jordan Series Drogue accomplishes the same calming in storm situations. Would you care to compare and contrast heaving-to vs jsd? Also what boat configurations make heaving to difficult? Would the jsd work where heaving-to won't? Has "lying a hull" been discounted?
Thanks,
John

As others have already said, they're all quite different tactics, and as always, IT DEPENDS on a number of different factors whether one is better suited than another...

I view the drogue as a heavier weather tactic of a more final resort, than heaving-to... The beauty of heaving-to, is that with the right boat, it can be accomplished so easily. Likewise, when you want to resume sailing, there's nothing to it... But, once a drogue or para-anchor has gone into the water, you've got your work cut out for you retrieving the gear, and getting underway again... For that reason, it's a tactic best reserved for a prolonged period of heavy weather, as opposed to the sort of 'rest stop' that heaving-to can so easily afford...

That's why I rate a boat's ability to heave-to as one of the most important characteristics when speaking of a boat's suitability for offshore sailing... And, why I view many of today's production offerings - with their flat bottoms, high freeboard, high aspect underwater appendages, and so on - distinctly less desirable as a choice for shorthanded offshore sailing, where a boat should be expected to take care of her crew, when left to her own devices...

Many people dismiss lying ahull out of hand, but I wouldn't be so quick to do so in less than extreme conditions, and the absence of large breaking seas. Again, depends entirely upon the boat. Halfway to Bermuda, I found out quite by accident that my own boat has the ability to lie ahull very comfortably in the right circumstances. I encountered a brief gale near the north wall of the Gulf Stream, and decided to park it for awhile. While setting up for heaving-to, between dropping the main and getting ready to hoist the trysail, I noticed I was getting a perfect sideways drift downwind, and the creation of the often mythical slick to windward... the effect of such a slick really has to be seen to be believed. As a result, I simply lay ahull for about 6-8 hours in mostly 40 knots gusting to 50, never once being struck by a breaking wave of any significance, and the decks remaining essentially dry... So, there are times where it can be a viable tactic, but you really need the right boat. Most modern designs under bare poles will want to sail out from beneath their slick. Helps to have a lot of hull volume beneath the waterline, a deep forefoot, and a rig placement close to the center of the boat...

Like this "outmoded" design, for instance...

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MedSailor

· #54 · Mar 17, 2015 (Edited)

Minnewaska said:
I've recemtly become curious whether one can run a JSD off the bow, like a parachute.

Yes... and no.

It's important to break up the JSD tactic into it's separate components. It is a drag device, just like a parachute, but achieves it's drag through multiple cones instead of one big cone. It is steamed from the stern with a bridle, and it is designed to not have enough drag to stop the boat but rather to significantly slow it so waves will go under the boat. It's also important to note here that it slows the boat down to just a couple of knots of boat speed, whereas a traditional drogue from the stern usually only slows you a little and requires active steering. A JSD is a passive technique. You toss it off the stern and you can go below and are not required to steer.

A parachute tactic involves streaming a big enough parachute from the bow to stop the boat cold, which is part of why the loads are so huge and chutes are often lost (according to the Drag Devices Database DDD)

Part of the success of the JSD tactic is the bridle. It's also why (I believe) chutes work better with multi-hulls and why Larry Pardey's tactic works (for smaller boats). A bridle can't easily be set on a mono-hull as the beam is too far back to be useful without chafe. From the stern, you can space the bridle legs far apart and thus keep your stem always pointed into the waves.

A JSD is also designed to not completely stop the boat, thus lessening the loads and impact as well as softening the motion of the passing waves. This can not be done from the bow as the boat would slip backwards and damage the rudder. A JSD could be constructed to have more drag by adding 2-3x as many cones and it would stop you cold. At this point it would act more like a parachute from the bow but with the possible advantage of not having the chute collapse. In addition, not having the single drag component means not having to worry about paying out enough rode to match the wave trains (that trick always looks so easy in the books doesn't it?).

To answer your question, yes a series drogue of sufficient size could be used (with improved effect IMHO) from the bow, but it would not really resemble the JSD tactic that bears Jordan's name.

MedSailor

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Omatako

· #55 · Mar 17, 2015

Have laid a-hull and hove-to in varying conditions from strong to positively wild. Have had waves break alongside and roll my boat onto it's side - I will never again allow my boat to stand still in the water for any reason.

Whatever drogues one uses are personal choice but IMHO the boat needs to be stopped from surfing and no more - continue on my way even though the course may not be exactly the chosen one. Also important to cut across the bad weather using the Buys-Ballot assessment of the location of the low pressure - that will get you into better weather sooner.

But park off in bad weather? Not for me. Not again.

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vega1860

· #56 · Mar 17, 2015

JonEisberg said:
Your post gets to the heart of a point I've tried to make repeatedly, how many people's attitude towards offshore sailing and passagemaking has changed as 'Voyaging' has morphed into more of a 'Lifestyle', as opposed as an 'Activity' based upon a love of sailing, combined with a heavy dose of wanderlust...

It's amazing how few cruisers today seem to view passagemaking as a truly unique adventure, and something to savor, or revel in... Most view passages with trepidation, and as something simply to be ENDURED as the price of admission to the next destination where they can once again, begin living the Cruising Lifestyle... Really a pity, how many folks really don't appreciate the actual SAILING, and the rare ability in today's world to truly "check out", and experience the raw beauty of nature to be found out there, perhaps even managing to go a day or two without checking email, or posting to a blog...

Everyone seems to want to get a passage over with as quickly as possible, and view something like heaving-to, or reducing sail at night when squalls might be encountered, as undesirable tactics that will only serve to prolong the 'misery' of offshore sailing...

I've been a runner (well, more of a "jogger", actually) for most of my life, yet I've never experienced the "Runner's High" that many serious runners speak of... But I have experienced a sort of 'Atlantic High' on some passages, and it is something very special indeed, when you actually manage to have somewhat mixed feelings upon arriving at your destination, tinged with a bit of regret that the sailing is nearly over...

Can't think of anything to add. As much as we have enjoyed harbor hopping from one spectacular, indescribably beautiful, anchorage to the next, we find ourselves wanting to head out to sea for a long passage again.

Minnewaska

· #57 · Mar 17, 2015

MedSailor said:
.....To answer your question, yes a series drogue of sufficient size could be used (with improved effect IMHO) from the bow, but it would not really resemble the JSD tactic that bears Jordan's name.

MedSailor

I understand the stated intent of the jsd, as a method that allows (actually requires) the boat to continue sailing in a more controlled fashion.

You make a very good point, if one were to set one off the bow, it would likely require larger chutes than designed from the stern. I was thinking that the series of chutes was a good way to distribute loads and avoid the single chute from pulling through the wave face.

Omatako

· #58 · Mar 18, 2015

JonEisberg said:
Everyone seems to want to get a passage over with as quickly as possible, and view something like heaving-to, or reducing sail at night when squalls might be encountered, as undesirable tactics that will only serve to prolong the 'misery' of offshore sailing...

Except that the art of sailing generally includes wanting to make the boat do its best and that generally speaks to short passage times. So what seems to one sailor like an unnecessary dash from one place to another, to another sailor it is the essence of sailing the boat correctly and is viewed as a successful voyage.

JonEisberg said:
But I have experienced a sort of 'Atlantic High' on some passages, and it is something very special indeed, when you actually manage to have somewhat mixed feelings upon arriving at your destination, tinged with a bit of regret that the sailing is nearly over...

But I don't differ from that sentiment.

outbound

Discussion Starter · #59 · Mar 18, 2015 (Edited)

Jon with your having more experience you've said it just right. I have about a dozen real off shore passages of more than 5-7 days but from the first had that mixed feeling of joy and regret at the time of the land fall. Although storms made for possibilities of brown pants coastal or offshore find pleasure when the boat is working hard and cleaving the seas. Remember doing a bermuda. Periodically the boat would disappear with just the mast stub showing. Then it would rise and we thundered along. After about a half hour of this started to giggle. A crew came up (I was alone on deck). He clipped in then looked around and gave me beatific smile. Not a word was spoken. We took turns surfing the boat. It doesn't have to be sunny with fair winds to get that peaceful totally in the moment egoless and stress less feeling. I only get that rarely coastal. I gotten at least a moment or two of it on each passage I've ever done.
BTW- the JSD works fine on more modern cruisers. If you have some one to tail with a power winch not that hard to retrieve. Yet to use it in a storm so that's just an opinion for now. Hassle is to put back correctly into the device they give you with it.

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JonEisberg

· #60 · Mar 18, 2015 (Edited)

Omatako said:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg

Everyone seems to want to get a passage over with as quickly as possible, and view something like heaving-to, or reducing sail at night when squalls might be encountered, as undesirable tactics that will only serve to prolong the 'misery' of offshore sailing...

Click to expand...

Except that the art of sailing generally includes wanting to make the boat do its best and that generally speaks to short passage times. So what seems to one sailor like an unnecessary dash from one place to another, to another sailor it is the essence of sailing the boat correctly and is viewed as a successful voyage.

Sure, but I would also suggest that the art of sailing - and cruising in particular - also includes getting the boat and its crew to the destination in one piece

My reference to heaving-to was a follow-up to the point I first made in Post #45, which was a reply to another poster's contention that one of the things that make offshore sailing more stressful is the possibility of the boat suffering damage and gear breakage, and the crew becoming fatigued, as a result to a prolonged exposure to heavy weather. I'm not endorsing heaving-to as the ultimate survival storm tactic, but rather as a very simple means of mitigating the punishment a boat and crew might be dealt by trying conditions encountered on a passage... Hell, even racers sometimes acknowledge that to finish first, you first have to finish, and that by throttling back one can greatly reduce the risk of gear breakage, injury to crew, and so on...

It's an option that has certainly worked well for many successful cruisers over the years. The Hiscocks, for one, as already mentioned. John and Phyllis on MORGAN'S CLOUD are others who are big proponents of heaving-to. Even though they sail a much bigger and heavier boat than most of us do, they freely admit that whenever they're beating into anything approaching 25 knots or so, unless there's some compelling tactical necessity to keep soldiering on, they will always park the boat until conditions moderate... And, I met an Austrian couple last summer in Nova Scotia who have been out for about 20 years now, probably embarking on their third circumnavigation, and who have done a lot of high latitude sailing, etc... They sail an Alubat, a great boat but one not especially weatherly, and they jokingly confess they're almost embarrassed to admit how often they resort to the tactic when the going gets tough...

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