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High anxiety-passage v. Coastal

10302 Views 85 Replies 24 Participants Last post by outbound, Apr 20, 2015

outbound

Discussion Starter · Mar 7, 2015 (Edited)

A recurring theme on recent threads had been the suitability of various boats or features for open water transits. Repetitively folk infer " if it's gowing to happen...it will happen out there".
At dinner last night people from U.K., Australia, Canada, both coasts of U.S. who made it to BVIs reported what broke and when. When were their hairy moments. When they were scared or very stressed. All seemed to involve coastal sailing or day hops between islands.
This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.
Off shore even with no weather fax coming in and the radar off you can see the weather. Coastal that thunderstorm can come over that hill and be on you in a blink. Waves break when their bottom hits the bottom of the ocean. Rather be in a 10' swell with a long period than 5-6' chop.
Offshore being 25 or 50 or even 100m off your position doesn't matter. Near shore a few yards maybe critical.
Before leaving to go offshore everything is as perfect as you can make it. Near shore. "aw I wont need it today" so let's go sailing I'll fix tomorrow.
Offshore crew is hand picked. Near shore " let's take Joe and Joan we owe them a dinner.
If you value your life you won't go offshore unless in an fully found offshore capable boat. Near shore "whatever- it will serve.
In short although "it's waves not the wind that will kill you" is true. It's also true it's the hard edges of the ocean that create a lot of the stress along with the other idiots in ships and boats.
I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.

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61 - 80 of 86 Posts

ccriders

· #61 · Mar 18, 2015

Heaving-to when beating in 25 knots or so. Is this a good threshold? Seems you could have 25 knots for several days. When I get 20, gusting to 25+, I find the chop is causing more problems than is the wind. Is this so on an ocean passage? At what wind speeds does one deploy a JSD?
John

Minnewaska

· #62 · Mar 18, 2015

ccriders said:
Heaving-to when beating in 25 knots or so. Is this a good threshold? Seems you could have 25 knots for several days. When I get 20, gusting to 25+, I find the chop is causing more problems than is the wind. Is this so on an ocean passage? At what wind speeds does one deploy a JSD?
John

Geesh, I hope not. I just spent an entire week sailing in the Virgin Islands with 25kts everyday. Reefed maybe.

I'm sure it depends on the boat and the specific sea condition. We had maybe 5 ft seas, but short interval, at least on the south side of the islands. 44 ft boat.

One can heave to whenever they want, just to take a break. But needing to, because the stink is up, probably doesn't start till a gale (which we also had for one passage and still didn't heave to

)

smackdaddy

· #63 · Mar 18, 2015

What's with all the "anxiety"?

JonEisberg

· #64 · Mar 18, 2015

ccriders said:
Heaving-to when beating in 25 knots or so. Is this a good threshold? Seems you could have 25 knots for several days. When I get 20, gusting to 25+, I find the chop is causing more problems than is the wind. Is this so on an ocean passage? At what wind speeds does one deploy a JSD?
John

Of course not, I'm only saying that the "threshold" for heaving-to could well be whenever it occurs to you that it might be a good idea...

I simply mentioned that for John Harries and Phyllis Nickel, sailing a 58' aluminum cutter, their personal choice to do so might often come a bit sooner than one might expect from such seasoned voyagers...

They've sailed over 100K miles, several transatlantics, ventured as far north as Svalbard, and have compiled THE cruising guide to Norway... Damn, just imagine all the places they might have made it to, if they hadn't wimped out and wasted all that time spent heaving-to every time the going to weather got tough, eh?

outbound

Discussion Starter · #65 · Mar 18, 2015

Minnie- went from peters to north sound in that crap. Right on the nose the whole time. But got to see 170-200' sailboats race around Virgin Gorda for the next three days. It was glorious. Like you say with any decent boat and reefed down and luffing in the gusts not an issue. But if on passage can see the wisdom of taking a break as Jon suggests.
I've come to believe both coastal and offshore schedules are a major contributor to stress. Be it to meet a plane schedule, to get to mooring before they are all filled up, t return to work. In any case whatever the schedule is you are under the gun to get to a specific place by a specific time and mother nature often just doesn't care. I envy those who are totally free of such constraints.

Omatako

· #66 · Mar 18, 2015

JonEisberg said:
It's an option that has certainly worked well for many successful cruisers over the years. The Hiscocks, for one, as already mentioned.

As I recall reading Hiscock, he made a habit of stopping his boat (heaving to) even in benign weather to get a good night's sleep almost as a routine.

smackdaddy

· #67 · Mar 19, 2015 (Edited)

outbound said:
This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.

If you value your life you won't go offshore unless in an fully found offshore capable boat. Near shore "whatever- it will serve.
In short although "it's waves not the wind that will kill you" is true. It's also true it's the hard edges of the ocean that create a lot of the stress along with the other idiots in ships and boats.
I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.

JonEisberg said:
Absolutely, but with one important caveat... That the boat you be taking "offshore" be well suited to handling whatever it might encounter out there, and not place excessive demands upon a shorthanded crew...

Otherwise, all things being equal, there's little comparison between the amount of stuff that can go wrong, or the potential consequences thereof, between coastal and open water sailing...

Oh look! It's the paradox twins!

You guys crack me up. So "coastal boats" are "inferior" to "offshore" boats - "not built to handle the real stuff" - when coastal is actually more risky than offshore?

Puuuhhhhhhlllleeeease.

Here's the bottom line - offshore is WAY easier than coastal, barring a survival storm. If nothing else, it simply means that you have a much longer time between having to try to dock the damn boat with onlookers again.

BTW - Oyster Yachts is now following my Twitter account. Cool eh? You guys must be full of anxiety.

jerryrlitton

· #68 · Mar 19, 2015

smackdaddy said:
BTW - Oyster Yachts is now following my Twitter account. Cool eh? You guys must be full of anxiety.

Because almost everyone can appreciate a little humor, Even Oyster Yachts. BTW true ref docks and onlookers.

Minnewaska

· #69 · Mar 19, 2015

smackdaddy said:
.......
BTW - Oyster Yachts is now following my Twitter account. Cool eh? ......

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Reactions: 1

JonEisberg

· #70 · Mar 20, 2015

Omatako said:
As I recall reading Hiscock, he made a habit of stopping his boat (heaving to) even in benign weather to get a good night's sleep almost as a routine.

Well, given the fact they sailed around the world 3 times during an era when such voyaging in small yachts was exceedingly rare, without ever losing a boat or a rig, I'd say it worked pretty well for them...

Besides, Eric was practically blind... Without the benefits of radar, AIS, and all the rest, theirs was probably a pretty sensible approach...

JonEisberg

· #71 · Mar 20, 2015 (Edited)

smackdaddy said:
Oh look! It's the paradox twins!

You guys crack me up. So "coastal boats" are "inferior" to "offshore" boats - "not built to handle the real stuff" - when coastal is actually more risky than offshore?

Puuuhhhhhhlllleeeease.

I know it's fun to cherry-pick excerpts, but try to keep up with the bigger picture, OK?

JonEisberg said:
Originally Posted by chall03

Thus is the silliness of the Bluewater vs Coastal debate. It is a nonsense. If a boat can't take heavy weather then it is not a boat I would wish to be in 2 miles from shore or 200 miles from shore.

Click to expand...

EXACTLY... That's why the whole "Bluewater vs. Coastal" thing has always seemed ridiculous to me, as well...

Seems to me that no other single event poses a great threat to most sailors - both in terms of the probability of it occurring, and the potential severity of the consequences - than a hard grounding, or some form of being driven ashore, or a serious encounter with something hard, and immovable...

Gotta say that this is one area where Hunter's approach to that issue certainly appears to be on the right track... Watch those videos of Steve Pettengill driving those Hunters up on the beach in St Augusting at full tilt, it's obvious they're paying attention to what's required to make at least the keels of their boats able to withstand that sort of trauma, so kudos to them...

smackdaddy said:
Here's the bottom line - offshore is WAY easier than coastal, barring a survival storm.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't...

At least, I think that's probably the prevailing opinion of sailors who have actually been offshore...

chall03

· #72 · Mar 20, 2015

Agreed.

The moment you take every piece of water on this earth and without reference to seasons, prevailing weather and sea conditions, local geography and access to safe harbour categorise all of it into two rather ambiguous categorises of offshore and coastal and then use this categorisation to shape both your vessel choice and sailing philosophy then you are misguided.

Perhaps the categorisation is of some use for a section of the East Coast of the US? Pretty much everywhere else I can think of it is unhelpful.

smackdaddy

· #73 · Mar 20, 2015

My point is precisely the same point you both made earlier - this "line" between "coastal boats" and "blue water boats" is extremely fuzzy. You guys are underscoring that with every post.

That's why, as I've said a million times, the production boat debate is dead. Dead. I think we all seem to agree.

JonEisberg

· #74 · Mar 20, 2015

smackdaddy said:
That's why, as I've said a million times, the production boat debate is dead. Dead. I think we all seem to agree.

Uhhhh, no... Not ALL of us seem to agree...

Hiowever, the "debate" may as well be dead, given the obstinate refusal on the part of some to even CONSIDER the opinion or experience of others, that many of today's production offerings just MIGHT possess characteristics that are less than desirable for offshore passagemaking...

smackdaddy

· #75 · Mar 20, 2015 (Edited)

Heh-heh. But they're perfectly suited to coastal sailing. Pesky paradoxes.

JonEisberg said:
Also, the extent to which a boat might be 'battered' by heavy weather offshore is generally, in my view, greatly overstated...

In addition, boats are hardly "often lost" offshore when things go wrong, such catastrophic events are actually rather rare...

Or maybe we're just talking tankage again?

JonEisberg

· #76 · Mar 20, 2015

smackdaddy said:
Heh-heh. But they're perfectly suited to coastal sailing. Pesky paradoxes.

Seems like your imagination has gotten the best of you, yet again... But if putting words in my mouth helps your feel like you're Winning, go for it...

chall03

· #77 · Mar 20, 2015

smackdaddy said:
My point is precisely the same point you both made earlier - this "line" between "coastal boats" and "blue water boats" is extremely fuzzy.

Well actually my point was there is no line to be fuzzy, because the entire paradigm is flawed.

Rather than bluewater vs coastal I think it is more meaningful to ask yourself two questions when selecting a cruising boat.

1. How long do you want to cruise for ?

a)Short term(A season)
b)Medium term(more than a season)
c)Long term( several years, circumnavigation)

2. Where do you want to cruise ?

a) Single cruising ground.
b) Multiple cruising grounds with at least one in season trade wind ocean crossing.
c) Everywhere

Depending on the answers to these questions you then can begin to make some more meaningful choices.

In terms of long term cruising I am in complete agreement with Jon, there are boats far better designed and built for this purpose than others. At the same time I would have no issue crewing on a Beneteau for the ARC depending on who was the skipper

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JonEisberg

· #78 · Mar 20, 2015

chall03 said:
Agreed.

The moment you take every piece of water on this earth and without reference to seasons, prevailing weather and sea conditions, local geography and access to safe harbour categorise all of it into two rather ambiguous categorises of offshore and coastal and then use this categorisation to shape both your vessel choice and sailing philosophy then you are misguided.

Perhaps the categorisation is of some use for a section of the East Coast of the US? Pretty much everywhere else I can think of it is unhelpful.

That's a very good point that I'm afraid many tend to overlook, as a significant percentage of these discussions tend to be informed by sailors mostly accustomed to cruising along the US East coast...

An area numerous harbors of refuge strategically spaced, extremely well charted and with excellent weather forecasting... Rarely out of cell phone or VHF range of the coast, or beyond the reach of the rapid response from Sea Tow or the Coast Guard, or convenient access to and infrastructure of boatyards/mechanics/suppliers to assist when problems arise...

Venture beyond the friendly confines of such a developed and popular cruising ground, and things can begin to change pretty quickly...

Reactions: 1

outbound

Discussion Starter · #79 · Mar 21, 2015

Smackie
Methinks you are not listening well.

Multiple people in multiple ways have expressed to you the truism-there are good boats and not so good boats. This is true at all price points,all ages of vessels, whether one offs or production, multi or monohullls. Good is defined in context of usage.
Several have pointed out the trends in current non high end production boats that detract from ease, comfort, safety, durability,serviceability in a long term distance cruising environment.
The mandate is different. Not better or worse just different. A professional captain who runs a new Bene in the mid 50s was on my boat and I've been on his boat several times. His boat is kicker. Wicked sound system, great icemaker, four zones of AC. He has nearly no storage for parts or tools. Rubbermaid containers fill one aft cabin. Even had trouble storing provisions for passage. Nor a place to work without messing up his interior.
At anchor I would much rather be on his boat. I could have many good friends/family with me. Cockpit parties are awesome.So much room. Nobody would wait for a head. Day to day moving around- not so much.
Returning to gist of this thread.
One thing that I hope is due to my inexperience and to date lack of need to date is the stress of fixing something truly broken while at sea. I've learned when anything breaks buy three. One to replace and two spares. But other than filters, impellers and the like have yet needed to actually fix anything significant. Having lost flexibility and strength with aging fixing stuff when not moving is difficult enough. For me this is a stress offshore that is not as germane coastal.

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chall03

· #80 · Apr 20, 2015

Current COASTAL weather forecast here in NSW.

These are average windspeeds and wave heights with gusts to be expected at 40% higher than the averages given.
These so called East Coast lows develop rapidly here are unpredictable and not always as accurately forecast as this one.

We are in Newcastle harbour on the NSW coast of Australia. We managed to get in here ok on the weekend before conditions worsened. North of here, in these conditions, there is no port you could enter safely for well over 500 nm.

Some might try for Coffs Harbour 250nm north, but officially that is closed, and I would not attempt it.

I would sail/motor like the clappers seaward ( towards bluewater) as far as I could as quickly as I could before conditions prohibited.

This is not abnormal here. It is seasonal and expected.

So again can someone please explain to me this whole coastal is easy vs bluewater is doom and gloom thing?

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