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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was racing this weekend and having a great time at our father's day regatta...
An incident did occur that brought up a question...

I was on a starboard tack, the other boat (a friend) was on a port tack. It was clear from our perspective that the port side boat wasn't going to clear us with especially with the wind shifts that were occuring. We yelled starboard, he yelled back 'hold your course'...which I assumed meant make my best heading. The wind shilfted so I headed up higher, and I think he was still trying to out run us instead of ducking?!? Eventually he did duck but as he narrowly passed us he yelled at me 'I said hold your f&*$)ing course'.

Later he said he yelled because he was scared and appologized ... my question is should I have followed the lift as I was on a starboard tack....obviously we need to avoid an accident but when he yelled hold your course my choice as I saw it was duck (and possibly wipe out or head up and crash anyways or clear him on his bow.)
 

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You were wrong:

RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing-articles/20795-new-racing-rules.html
 

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....obviously we need to avoid an accident but when he yelled hold your course my choice as I saw it was duck (and possibly wipe out or head up and crash anyways or clear him on his bow.)
If he is planning to avoid you, and you make a sudden last second panicked move as he approaches, like heading down, then you can cause a collision. If he is about to cross your bow and you think you are going to ram him, then pinch up or even tack as necessary, but don't head down. Then file a protest.

If he is crossing your bow already and he is just about there and you have to duck a little, that's easier then tacking, but I think you were describing a situation where you each still had a few boat lengths to go.

Remember, he can't plot a course to avoid striking you if your course in not predictable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."

From the description it sounds like the port boat is trying keep clear by ducking but the rule is saying it is illegal for the Starboard boat to bear off, making it hard for port boat to stay clear. In the case I decribed I headed up slightly which would increase the space IF the boat was trying to duck... the problem was I think the other boat was tring to cross our bow instead of ducking...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If he is about to cross your bow and you think you are going to ram him, then pinch up or even tack as necessary, but don't head down. Then file a protest.


This is exactly what I did (but he asked me to hold my course)...
 

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I would think he wanted you to maintain the course you were on and he would maneuver to avoid you so you don't look like 2 people who meet in a narrow hallway and are dancing around trying to get out of each others way. I could be wrong but that is how I understand the statement. I don't know if you were correct or not it is just what it would mean to me.
 

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Well he admitted he was scared. If you had to head up to avoid hitting him then that was of course the proper thing to do, although I am having trouble visualizing how heading up as he crosses your bow avoids him. If you headed up to chase a lift then you were in the wrong.

It's up to him how he is going to stay clear. He can duck your stern or if he thinks he can cross your bow without you altering course, then he is free to do that. As long as you are not *forced* to alter your course he is okay.

I did a little more reading, and it seems that this rule change was designed to prevent exactly what you did. You didn't do it to mess with him, you were just taking advantage of a shift, but the effect was the same from his perspective.
 

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If he was able to cross in front of you, then you weren't technically on a collision course. It was just a close crossing. If you changed course, you caused it to become a collision course. I'm not savvy enough about the rules to give you chapter and verse, but I'll bet it's in there. If I were crossing in front of someone, and they changed course to intercept me, I might yell too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
We were beating (heading up).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the input. The name of the game is avoiding an accident.
 

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We yelled starboard, he yelled back 'hold your course'...which I assumed meant make my best heading.
I would've thought "hold your course" meant "hold your course."

RRS 16.2 "Changing Course: In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."

From the description it sounds like the port boat is trying keep clear by ducking ...
From what do you infer that?

,,,but the rule is saying it is illegal for the Starboard boat to bear off, making it hard for port boat to stay clear. In the case I decribed I headed up slightly which would increase the space IF the boat was trying to duck... the problem was I think the other boat was tring to cross our bow instead of ducking...
I don't see anything in the wording of that rule about heading up or bearing off. I see: "shall not change course."

Diagrams would be good, but given what you've described and the wording of 16.2, it sounds like you were in the wrong.

Jim
 

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So you got lifted and he got knocked? Honestly, he probably wasn't going to cross you in the first place if he was letting a wind shift decide his fait. When crossing a starboard boat he needs to make damn sure he can cross, no matter what. If you guys hit, he looses the protest. No question about it.

And Course, refers to "proper course" which is the most direct route to the next mark. Now, if he tried to dip you, and you drove down on him to push him farther down, then you basically altered course to F*CK him, that won't fly and is why rule 16.2 or whatever was written. What he did was drive himself into a hole.
 

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Now, if he tried to dip you, and you drove down on him to push him farther down, then you basically altered course to F*CK him, that won't fly and is why rule 16.2 or whatever was written. What he did was drive himself into a hole.
I suspect the mark was to starboard of GW's boat and he was lifted by a veering wind, so he took advantage of it. I suspect his competitor was planning to cross in front of him and thought he had room to do it until GW's boat pointed up higher. Now that would have been a proper course for GW's boat to sail, but 16.2 doesn't say "proper course" (as the rules do elsewhere, when they specifically write "proper course"), but say "shall not change course." I'm no RRS guru, but it still looks to me like GW was wrong.

Jim
 

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So if that's the case port was going to cross close hauled, then he got knocked, did he not have to bare off to keep moving, changing his course as well? Or did he plan to 'shoot' a starboard tack boat at full speed?

I understand the rule was written very deliberately, but GW is on starboard, no committee judge is going to find fault in him getting lifted.
 

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So if that's the case port was going to cross close hauled, then he got knocked, did he not have to bare off to keep moving, changing his course as well? Or did he plan to 'shoot' a starboard tack boat at full speed?
Don't know. Wasn't there. That's why I earlier wrote that a diagram would be a good thing. If "boat B" would've otherwise crossed far enough in front of "boat A," he might've had plenty of room to make it even after being knocked. (Keeping in mind that "plenty" is a highly-variable amount ;).) Assuming he was close-hauled at the time: Yes, he would've had to have altered course.

I understand the rule was written very deliberately, but GW is on starboard, no committee judge is going to find fault in him getting lifted.
Don't know.

Jim
 

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The rule talks about the give-way (port) boat being in the process of giving way. The OP did not describe the give-way boat as giving way, and so the stand-on (starboard) vessel was not prevented from altering course.

If the port vessel had been ducking behind the starboard vessel, and the starboard vessel altered course upwind at the same time (what I'm pretty sure the OP is describing), then that alteration would not force the port vessel to continue to keep clear (remember they were on a beat).

There's no way the OP was in the wrong. The port vessel was probably wrong in thinking that she didn't have to give way in the first place; even if she was right, then a collision situation would not apply until after the starboard vessel headed up, at which point the port vessel definitely had to give way.

To summarize: the rule quoted only forbids the stand-on vessel from "hunting" when the give-way vessel is giving way, not when the give-way vessel has asserted that there is no collision situation and refused to give way. The rule doesn't apply.
 

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Now that would have been a proper course for GW's boat to sail, but 16.2 doesn't say "proper course" (as the rules do elsewhere, when they specifically write "proper course"), but say "shall not change course." I'm no RRS guru, but it still looks to me like GW was wrong.

Jim
I agree with this analysis. I don't think "proper course" is relevant here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)


- a rough sketch!

btw the green boat (us) are on a starboard tack heading close hauled.
 
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