Sailing into our cold season here in SC I was wondering how unsafe one of these old Colman units would be? I suppose that fuel lands somewhere between diesel and gasoline?
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rbyham
CO2 and CO will be one of the hazards for you. The water vapour created is a hazard for the boat.
So it looks like the consensus to "How unsafe is this?" is: Pretty darn unsafe!
I would go with tallswede's advice for a catalytic propane heater for occasional. We used a small one that takes standard canisters and it definitely helped warm up the cabin in the evening. I wouldn't sleep with one running, and the CO monitor advice sounds smart. I'll get smart on that one next year
I would go with tallswede's advice for a catalytic propane heater for occasional. We used a small one that takes standard canisters and it definitely helped warm up the cabin in the evening. I wouldn't sleep with one running, and the CO monitor advice sounds smart. I'll get smart on that one next year
Go buy a decent small propane catalytic heater or an origo alcohol heater. keep the hatches cracked, and a fan going, and turn off the heater before going to bed, then shut the hatches but keep the fan running to keep the air circulating.
A fan makes a BIG difference in comfort-it circulates heat throughout the boat.
A fan makes a BIG difference in comfort-it circulates heat throughout the boat.
I know several people who put a clay pot upside down over their stove burner for some heat. Although we have a regular diesel heater, it amazes me how much heat a kerosene lamp contributes. They can be smelly though.
If my older knowledge base is right.. catalytic heaters (ceramic) put out way less carbon monoxide. but they still make enough to kill you.
found this;
https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103972/CO03.pdf
found this;
https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103972/CO03.pdf
I read some of the report linked by Denise. Thanks. It appears that hypoxia (low oxygen) is a significant danger. It seems like a really bad idea to use this type of heater. If you're going to use one, get a carbon monoxide detector, and you better get one to detect low oxygen levels too. Don't forget that carbon monoxide can pool in an area not serviced by the monitor - like your bunk? I personally would not use an unvented heater.
Reading the test that denise linked, here's the good news- the likelihood of a catalytic heater killing you aboard a ventilated sailboat are very low. From the test:
" test chamber at air exchange rates of 0.0, 0.5, 1.0, and 1.5 ACH. During the test, gas samples were
continually withdrawn from the test chamber and analyzed for carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide
(CO2), oxygen (O2), and unburnt hydrocarbons in the form of propane. Long term testing of two identical
catalytic heaters was also performed to determine if the catalyst degraded over time.
The following is a summary of CPSC staff's findings:
· On average, the catalytic heater operated for approximately 6.5 hours on a 1-pound disposable
bottle of propane. This heater could not be attached to a larger fuel source (i.e., 20-pound tank).
· The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO
concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5 2
hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard
to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.
· When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted
from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can
deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The
degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in
the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen.
· As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting
the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in
the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to
64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further
increases the degree of hypoxia....."
" test chamber at air exchange rates of 0.0, 0.5, 1.0, and 1.5 ACH. During the test, gas samples were
continually withdrawn from the test chamber and analyzed for carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide
(CO2), oxygen (O2), and unburnt hydrocarbons in the form of propane. Long term testing of two identical
catalytic heaters was also performed to determine if the catalyst degraded over time.
The following is a summary of CPSC staff's findings:
· On average, the catalytic heater operated for approximately 6.5 hours on a 1-pound disposable
bottle of propane. This heater could not be attached to a larger fuel source (i.e., 20-pound tank).
· The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO
concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5 2
hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard
to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.
· When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted
from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can
deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The
degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in
the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen.
· As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting
the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in
the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to
64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further
increases the degree of hypoxia....."
Be Very aware, cats can be deadly, doesn't take much to accumulate. We lose several people here each year to catalytic heaters, mostly in garages and small rooms keeping people warm in confined space. A sail boat is a very confined space. Not enough cubic feet for combustion air. Like many things some folks get away with it each time. Very sad endings, once your dead!!!. No do-overs.
Please do not put yourself at risk, more important is your family, with a bad decision.
Please do not put yourself at risk, more important is your family, with a bad decision.
I have one of those Mr. Heater portables with built in fan and O2 sensor. I don't trust it at all. Puts out serious heat, although, up on the hard I can only get the cabin to about 50 degs in dead of winter. Exposed boat is a heat sink, but it's enough to get some work done. However, I always feel like crap afterward. Assume it's the CO.
I always feel like crap when the boat is out of the water, too. I don't think it is the heater, it's just winter.
These cat heaters are fine; when prudently used:
1. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
2. Crack a hatch, etc. to expel CO & CO2 ... and humidity.
3. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
4. If you develop the slightest headache, etc, turn it off.
5. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
6. Use a CO/CO2 detector alarm.
7. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
.... the exact same rules as when your propane stove/oven is on, or any other 'open flame' device (lanterns, candles, etc.) or any other 'camping heater' is on.
We've been using a similar Cat device for the past 30 years ..... its really good for a quick warm-up of the interior and doesnt 'hog' fuel from your 'main propane' storage/bottle(s).
Use common sense, protect it so it doesnt fall over, and always be keenly aware of what happens with 'misuse'.
1. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
2. Crack a hatch, etc. to expel CO & CO2 ... and humidity.
3. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
4. If you develop the slightest headache, etc, turn it off.
5. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
6. Use a CO/CO2 detector alarm.
7. NEVER go to sleep with one lit.
.... the exact same rules as when your propane stove/oven is on, or any other 'open flame' device (lanterns, candles, etc.) or any other 'camping heater' is on.
We've been using a similar Cat device for the past 30 years ..... its really good for a quick warm-up of the interior and doesnt 'hog' fuel from your 'main propane' storage/bottle(s).
Use common sense, protect it so it doesnt fall over, and always be keenly aware of what happens with 'misuse'.
But they do have a big stink when out gassing I used to have hybread wolves and yep those other dogs are to small
Not one of the heaters mentioned in this thread come anywhere close to meeting ABYC standards. Collecting on an insurance claim may be a problem but I guess that won't bother you if you are dead.
Are there any portable heaters that meet abyc standards how about an origo heat pal they double as a portable alcohol stove
As BLJones link indicates, the key to keeping the catalytic propane heater burning cleanly, is an adequate oxygen supply. When the oxygen supply is low, the catalyst cannot properly oxidize the exhaust or completely burn the fuel, and toxic gasses begin to accumulate.
My research indicates that an Origo Heatpal outputs more BTU's than a Coleman Black Cat catalytic propane heater- 5,000 vs. 3,500.
When anchoring out in cold weather, I typically fire up one of those heaters (usually the Origo) and get the cabin good and warm. I extinguish the heater before bed, and sleep with quality, sub-zero rated sleeping bags. I fire up the heaters first thing in the morning and cook breakfast. That's usually plenty to get the cabin cozy. Probably the worst thing about this arrangement is sitting on an ice-cold toilet seat in the middle of the night, if one needed to use the head.
I have slept with the Coleman heater on "low", with the sliding hatch cracked enough to provide an adequate oxygen supply.
Disclaimer: I do not advise anyone to follow my example.
My research indicates that an Origo Heatpal outputs more BTU's than a Coleman Black Cat catalytic propane heater- 5,000 vs. 3,500.
When anchoring out in cold weather, I typically fire up one of those heaters (usually the Origo) and get the cabin good and warm. I extinguish the heater before bed, and sleep with quality, sub-zero rated sleeping bags. I fire up the heaters first thing in the morning and cook breakfast. That's usually plenty to get the cabin cozy. Probably the worst thing about this arrangement is sitting on an ice-cold toilet seat in the middle of the night, if one needed to use the head.
I have slept with the Coleman heater on "low", with the sliding hatch cracked enough to provide an adequate oxygen supply.
Disclaimer: I do not advise anyone to follow my example.
What is funny is everyone in this thread is "speculating," or "reading" or pointing to something... None of them have used these...
I HAVE!!!
We used one of these regularly on our US Yacht when I was young.
Some things "guessed at," are true.
We NEVER ran it with hatches closed.
Forward hatch in the 27 was 2-6 inches open.
sliding hatch was always 2-6 inches open.
Sometimes the hatch cribs of which there were 2, 1 was removed to exhaust extra heat.
Because what none of these people know, is these things create so much freaking heat, that you can have all the hatches open and it'll STILL be too hot in there! Used this heater down until 17 degrees outside. Never got below 65 inside.
These heaters were designed for large tents (which are usually not air tight anyway, nor do they have insulated walls, so it had to output lots of heat).
What others AREN'T telling you is that heater is likely too old. What you will have a hard time finding is parts for that heater, as the wick is likely worn out, the tank is also probably rusted (causing contaminates for the burn).
The lighting process for these heaters is a PITA... you fill them with fuel, turn them upside down until the wick/dome gets wet... then you light it (open flame)... until it burns down, it's a fire hazard (we lit ours on the concrete dock, and it stayed their until it "glowed"). The nice part about these heaters though is a full tank will burn for about 20 hours straight.
Frankly I think the Mr. Buddy heaters are better (propane)... but they still have the same problem (you need lots of air for them). But they light like a little grill (piezo starter), and they don't have an open flame long.
I HAVE!!!
We used one of these regularly on our US Yacht when I was young.
Some things "guessed at," are true.
We NEVER ran it with hatches closed.
Forward hatch in the 27 was 2-6 inches open.
sliding hatch was always 2-6 inches open.
Sometimes the hatch cribs of which there were 2, 1 was removed to exhaust extra heat.
Because what none of these people know, is these things create so much freaking heat, that you can have all the hatches open and it'll STILL be too hot in there! Used this heater down until 17 degrees outside. Never got below 65 inside.
These heaters were designed for large tents (which are usually not air tight anyway, nor do they have insulated walls, so it had to output lots of heat).
What others AREN'T telling you is that heater is likely too old. What you will have a hard time finding is parts for that heater, as the wick is likely worn out, the tank is also probably rusted (causing contaminates for the burn).
The lighting process for these heaters is a PITA... you fill them with fuel, turn them upside down until the wick/dome gets wet... then you light it (open flame)... until it burns down, it's a fire hazard (we lit ours on the concrete dock, and it stayed their until it "glowed"). The nice part about these heaters though is a full tank will burn for about 20 hours straight.
Frankly I think the Mr. Buddy heaters are better (propane)... but they still have the same problem (you need lots of air for them). But they light like a little grill (piezo starter), and they don't have an open flame long.
It's good you have common sense! Thing about this type of thread is people do stupid very well. Being in the hvac biz all my life, I've seen really dumass things.
Storing combustibles paint, thinner, etc right in front of a gas fired furnace or water heater.
cardboard and duct tape "ductwork"
unvented furnaces and water heaters... apparently that way for many years because of blocked chimneys
Kerosene heaters used in bedrooms with windows closed.
I've seen chimney fire damage where it actually left the chimney and burned wood joists. (unlined brick city house chimneys.)
Disclaimer in contract by us "Existing chimney MUST be inspected, lined, certified by licensed chimney specialist. " A year later we get a call... go and find the chimney blocked with brick and loose mortar because it was never lined.
Stupid is a alive and well in the empty minds of many humans...
Having spent one night on one boat with a HeatPal and clay flowerpot over it...and the hatches opened enough so that we were sure of adequate ventilation...Woke up in a rainforest, and a chilly one at that. Lost all further interest in the use of a HeatPal as a boat heater, very quickly. As did everyone else aboard.
Obviously some folks have not had the same pleasure.
Obviously some folks have not had the same pleasure.
ok I give up... will never use this heater... sounds like it is either dogs or subzero sleeping bags for me.... or restrict my overnighting to warmer months...
sounds like it is either dogs or subzero sleeping bags for me.... or restrict my overnighting to warmer months...-
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