[Kimmi]

New to sailboats. We were going to go with a 30+ footer, but we went on a Hunter 27 last weekend in Florida and thought it would be a great little learning boat. So we came back to NC and looked online and found this cute looking boat, but knowing nothing about boats... well, know not what to look for!

Can anyone take a look at the pictures, many can be blown up to a HUGE SIZE, and tell us if you see anything obviously wrong? I plan on going to look at the boat in person later this week and if we like it put in an offer. The marina DOES require liability insurance, and BOATUS will require a survey for a boat of this age even for liability insurance.

The insurance only survey is going to run us over $600 due to the distance of the marina from the surveyors town. or a full pre-purchase survey will be over $800. The surveyor said we should self insure unless we are in a marina that requires it, but, the marina we want to be at... does.

Advice (about anything related to the boat, survey or insurance) is welcomed!!

Will have to scroll down and click on the Hunter 27

Boats for Sale Washington, NC ? McCotters Marina and Boat Yard

 

[Donna_F]

I didn't see a Hunter 27 on the list but how did you find a surveyor? Perhaps the marina can recommend someone closer?

We use BoatUS insurance and have been happy with them.

 

[Barquito]

I think this is a direct link:
Boats for Sale Washington, NC ? McCotters Marina and Boat Yard

Looks clean. Make sure outboard runs well, and can charge battery (unless you will be in a slip every night). Looks like the lifelines are toast. Not sure if I saw peeling paint on the deck, or cracked fiberglass. If the deck is painted, you will be faced with re-painting at some point. That is either a lot of work, or a lot of money. None of this would be a deal killer for me. Worth checking out.

Check this out before you visit the boat:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48177-boat-inspection-trip-tips.html

 

[cthoops]

I've never been able to figure out why surveys are required for some boats and not others. We have a 1975 Bristol 24 insured through BoatUS and there was no survey requirement.

 

[bblument]

This is just a shot in the dark, but perhaps for many boats (especially the smaller ones) a survey is not required if the owner only desires liability insurance, rather than hull insurance? When folks mention that their marina requires insurance, are they referring to liability only, or liability and hull?

To make an auto insurance parallel, it would seem the marina would be more concerned with the damage you would inflict on someone else (liability insurance) rather than damage you do or is done to your boat (hull insurance). If you don't have hull insurance and you cause damage to your own boat, you obviously have to take of repairs on your own. Whether or not you have hull insurance or not, if damage is done to your boat by someone ELSE, their liability insurance would be required to cover the damage. Having your own hull insurance would mean that your insurance company might pay a claim to you in that instance quickly, but your company would still go after the responsible party's insurance for reimbursement.

It would make sense that a marina would require liability insurance, but I'm not sure I understand why they'd require hull insurance.

Just musing out loud.. don't take this as advice or fact. I only have liability insurance on our little P26. I don't even know if our marina requires it or not.

Thoughts?

Barry

 

[SHNOOL]

Yep, I have minimum insurance on my boat, it's a requirement to be in the water at our marina... it does nothing to cover MY boat, only any damage I do to others boats or property.

By the way, that seems like a bargain basement price on that hunter 27. Its also the year/design I prefer. But then I remember looking at those boats as a kid when they were new, at the boat show. To me they offered a lot of boat for the size.

I can only speculate on pictures, but I'd wager, standing and running rigging are in order. I would also ask a Hunter expert, but I think if you go old enough on these hunters into the Cherubini designs, they are solid glass layup.

But I'd also wager it needs a bottom job too. Those are just maintenance items that would need to be done eventually anyway.

Agreed with above poster that if the outboard runs well that's at least one headache to avoid.

 

[Kimmi]

We are looking at liability only. At this price it probably wouldn't make sense to pay much for hull insurance. Anyeay, I called BoatUS and after taking down the info on us and the boat they told us a survey was going to be required.

Can we use any surveyor or only one recommended by BoatUS?

 

[Kimmi]

I can only speculate on pictures, but I'd wager, standing and running rigging are in order. I would also ask a Hunter expert, but I think if you go old enough on these hunters into the Cherubini designs, they are solid glass layup.

But I'd also wager it needs a bottom job too. Those are just maintenance items that would need to be done eventually anyway.

What type of money for the standing and running rigging are we looking at? I think as long as the boat looks as good as the photos I won't mind sinking a couple grand or so more into it as I think the price is good.

If we are going to have to pay $675 for an insurance survey then might as well spend $150 more and go for the full survey. I just hate to spend so much for the survey for a boat that is only 6K... but if we have to we have to!

 

[Skipper Jer]

We had a Hunter 25 for 7 years down in Florida. Ran it up a tree in Lake Okeechobee, more groundings than you could shake a stick at, went through two groundings after it broke loose from the mooring in the middle of hurricanes. Tough boat. Take a close look at the deck where the mast is. Ours was compressed due to rotten wood due to leakage. I'm surprised that this is an outboard, thought they only were equipped with an inboard. Outboard with a wheel? So what is wrong with the inboard? If the boat is out of the water look close at the rudder post where it enters the rudder. Ours broke off there.
Plastic through hulls? And take a look at the hoses that connect the cockpit drains to the through hulls.

 

[SHNOOL]

Maybe different insurance companies have different requirements... but mine didn't want to see the boat, nor cared if I only had liability... it's a 26 footer, but on a trailer (maybe that's the key)... but it's in a slip for 6 months of the year. I was actually quite surprised, but then this is my 3rd boat in 5 years, and they didn't require it on my 22, my 25, or my 26.

Cost of (standing) rigging, I can't even speculate. Running rigging figure on about $1-2 per foot of line (for cheap stuff).

I'm with you on survey... I'd have a hard time swallowing $700 for an inspection for a $7000 boat. But my attitude is, you pays your money, you takes your chances. If the insurance company won't allow you to buy without a survey, I suppose you have some choices don't you? Find another carrier, or pay the 10% penalty to survey a boat that likely won't pass for reasons you likely already know. But then some like to create a list of things they'll need to address. Question is, do you want the insurance company demanding you fix these things before you are insured.. I think its amazing what WE as consumers tolerate from the companies WE PAY for their service. Just my $0.02.

 

[GeorgeB]

What I find interesting is they have twenty five pictures posted and not a single one of the galley or even one looking to the stern of the cabin. Curious. You also know that this boat was originally equipped with an inboard engine and most likely the dead engine is still inside (It still has a prop less prop shaft). I personally have had bad luck with outboards in salt water - you need to flush them after every use and the swing-motor mounts tend to break. Not to mention, with the thrust so far aft of the rudder, it was a PITA for me to maneuver in marinas. Might not be a deal-breaker for you, but I personally would pass on this boat.

 

[Barquito]

If we are going to have to pay $675 for an insurance survey then might as well spend $150 more and go for the full survey. I just hate to spend so much for the survey for a boat that is only 6K... but if we have to we have to!

Remember that if you get the full survey, there could be good value for your dollar. You could avoid making a $6,000 mistake. Or, you could get good advice that will keep you from sinking on your new boat. This is just the first of many times you will have to pull that wallet out for your boat.

 

[RobGallagher]

Yup, prop-less shaft and an outboard.... If you can live with an outboard, that's not a deal breaker. In fact, some might prefer an outboard.

Unfortunately, you have some combination of the following:
Dead engine, needs to be removed, rebuilt and replaced
Dead engine, engine/systems needs to be removed, engine compartment cleaned, painted, nice storage area
Dead engine is gone
Strut needs to be removed, hull glassed and faired
Shaft log needs to be removed, hull glassed and faired
I see NO outboard engine controls to the helm. That's not cheap.
I see an outboard fuel line going into the the hull, that may or may not be legal or smart. Not a cheap fix.

With a running inboard and no other major pitfalls it's a good deal at 7K
From the factory with no inboard, designed for an outboard, it's anybody's guess at 7K
With the work that needs to be done, it may or may not be good deal at 3K

Not something the owner wants to hear and he may tell you to go pound sand, but that is what you need to hear.

At this point I would spend the $800 on that survey. Bring a pen, notepad, digital camera, flashlight and be prepared to follow the surveyor around for as long as he's willing to spend with you. Even if you don't end up buying the boat, people have spent more to learn less.

Edit: Without seeing the boat, I'm gonna take a wild shot...Offer him $3500 contingent on a survey. If he bites, pay for the survey. If not, walk away.

 

[Kimmi]

RobGallagher,
I know the info about the outboard must be very important.... However I just don't understand it!! Can you break it down into simpler terms as to what issues or problems (and dollar spending) I will encounter trying to fix the outboard thing?

Sounds like it may be a big problem to just throw an outboard on a boat should the inboard stop working...??

 

[Donna_F]

...

Sounds like it may be a big problem to just throw an outboard on a boat should the inboard stop working...??

Sometimes it isn't a huge problem and I have heard of people putting outboards on Catalina 30s, which is what I have.

If a boat has an inboard engine as part of the original design, then the boat was most likely intended to sail and motor most efficiently with the weight and engine and prop in that location. Change the location of the engine and you're modifying that design and not always for the better.

Some people don't care. Personally, if I know my boat had more thought and experience put into the hull design than I have, then I don't want to make any changes that may take away from my enjoyment of the boat as it was originally intended to sail because I don't know jack about boat building.

 

[RobGallagher]

RobGallagher,
I know the info about the outboard must be very important.... However I just don't understand it!! Can you break it down into simpler terms as to what issues or problems (and dollar spending) I will encounter trying to fix the outboard thing?

Sounds like it may be a big problem to just throw an outboard on a boat should the inboard stop working...??

Again, it's a guess without seeing the boat, but here is a couple of quick thoughts.

Small outboards are set up with all the controls (throttle, fwd, neut, rev, stop) on the tiller. Controlling and steering are very simple sitting in the stern of a small boat. Outboards on bigger boats have control cables from the engine to the cockpit. Your boat has a wheel, setup with engine controls (from the inboard) in the cockpit.

A sailboat that came from the factory with a wheel and a nice outboard setup, or a proper conversion, would have engine controls running to the cockpit.

The pilot might have trouble standing at the wheel and controlling the engine in busy channels or docking. The engine mount is designed to get the prop as low into the water as possible when underway underpower. Under sail, the engine mount is designed to lift the engine out of the water, reducing drag.

Under power, the way the boat appears to be currently set up, the pilot will literally have to lean out the back of the boat to reach those controls. It can be done, people do it, but it is far from ideal.

A sailboat with tiller steering might not need to have the engine controls in the cockpit as the pilot may sit in the stern and control both the tiller and the outboard. Still not ideal, but less of a hastle.

Then there is the fuel line. My first question is; how is it set up and is that the safe and correct way to do it?

A quick search of Yachtworld.com shows me that 1982 hunter 27's all came with Yanmar inboard diesels. A decent little engine. A repower or rebuild of the same engine, even you found a used engine and did some of the grunt work yourself, would not be cheap. I'm gonna guess 3K-5K.

Looking back at the pictures, (and big disclaimer here; I'm looking at internet pictures so my opinion is nearly worthless) maybe the boat could be worth a little closer to 5K. This is all considering the boat surveys well and there are no major issues.

If you are in a protected harbor or lake and only sail on nice days the outboard will get you in and out. It could be a nice boat to spend the weekends on, Hunters are well known for their roominess down below.

Again, this is speculation, I can't see the boat and I'm not a pro. I'll bet if you started another thread you might find someone one this list who lives in your area that might be willing to donate an hour of their time to give the boat a quick look over in order to help a future sailor out.

Final thought; The boat is listed through a broker, that means he's paying at least 10% to sell, maybe more as some brokers have a minimum fee on cheaper boats. If I was looking for a boat that was selling for less than 10K I might try to find private sales. Craigslist can be good for someone who is savvy.

I hope this rambling helps, good luck.

 

[miatapaul]

Yes the outboard is likely due to the fact that the inboard is shot. Figure a new inboard installed will be at least $10,000 or so, rebuilt all done by professionals (engine taken out rebuilt and reinstalled) will likely be close to $7,000 or so. Less if you do some of the work yourself. So what the last owner did was put an outboard on the stern on a mount for a few thousand. Looks like they did not do a through job of it (no remote controls, hacked fuel lines)as far as the pictures show. Yes the proper repair would have cost far more than the boat is worth, so the outboard solution may well make sense. So it is a bit of a hack, but if install is good, and meets ABYC standards then it is a good way of extending the life of the boat. But it's value is still that of a boat with a broken inboard motor + a little bit for the outboard.

While the outboard will work in reasonable calm conditions, it definitely will change the balance of the boat, and could effect it in a poor way. Personally I would look for another boat, with an inboard, and in that size range I would prefer the simplicity of a tiller. Tillers give you a better feel for what the boat is doing and is very helpful for learning on. They are much easier to maintain as well. If you look at almost all of the sailing training schools they use tiller boats for a reason. To me the lack of a tiller is more of a deal breaker than the outboard.

Seems odd it has two shore power connectors, for A/C perhaps?

 

[Minnewaska]

The pushback on what a survey and liability cost, as compared to the cost of the boat, never makes sense to me. The cost of your boat has nothing to do with the damage you may cause to another boat or the environment. An inexpensive boat can still pollute the water and require expensive recovery costs, if it's lying on the bottom. The survey is trying to determine the risk involved with a particular hull. In this particular OP's case, they would have no idea.

Many won't like this, but as far as I'm concerned, you should either be required to have liability insurance or prove you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in liquid assets that can be taken to pay for any damage you cause.

 

[krisscross]

I would much rather buy this boat (similar price):
1976 Cal 2-27 sailboat for sale in North Carolina
Inboard Atomic 4 in good working order, better boat design, better sailing, better quality build. The only minus might be the portable toilet (I would replace it with a simple composting head, less then $1000 in total cost)

 

[miatapaul]

I would much rather buy this boat (similar price):
1976 Cal 2-27 sailboat for sale in North Carolina
Inboard Atomic 4 in good working order, better boat design, better sailing, better quality build. The only minus might be the portable toilet (I would replace it with a simple composting head, less then $1000 in total cost)

Now that is a nice looking boat, but is more "basic" than the Hunter. Cals have a great reputation. I would prefer a diesel, but the atomic 4 is such a reliable old beast that they are hard to beat. Parts availability is better than many more recent motors to. It is a tiller boat, big advantage. Boy did they ever over process those photos.