[hellosailor]

With the HX851 being clearance so cheap, I decided my antique SH h/t needed a younger brother.

So now the question arises, what kind of AAA primary batteries ("primary" as opposed to rechargeable, not "primary" as in the preferred main battery pack which is LiOn) to put in the tray?

The tray takes five AAA cells (foolishly, rather than AA) and the radio wants to see 7.4 volts from them, for 1.5V each. That omits NiMh and NiCd batteries, which SH says not to use because of their lower voltage.

But they say alkaline batteries won't supply enough power to get full output from the radio.

Which leaves several options. There are Nickel-Zinc rechargeables, a quirky hundred year old option that never made mainstream, but does give a full 1.6volts (1.6) per battery.

And there are lithium primary (disposable) cells from Energizer, at 1.5V per cell, but several folks report that the radio won't work with them, apparently seeing the difference in internal resistance and deciding they're dead cells. Except, SH tech support didn't know anything about this, or that lithium primary cells exist. (!)

So...Nickel zinc with all the quirks they have? Energizer lithiums? Just buy another lion pack and a solar panel to keep it up? Sew 'em both on my hat?

Modify the tray? "But it was my smallest Sawzall!"

 

[MedSailor]

My radio should arrive shortly. I really want to use lithium primaries in mine so I'll pop 5 of them in and give it a try. If you pick up my signal, you'll know they work.

MedSailor

 

[miatapaul]

I have never seen nickel zinc batteries in AAA. I think that is what I have in AA (PowerGenix) but they hard to come by and I don't think I have ever seen them here in AAA but if they are available I woudl love it for some LED flashlights. I use the AA's in my photo flash gun, as it cycles faster with it.

Oh I had not seen these:

Amazon.com: BPI NiZn 1.6v 1000mWH High Voltage Rechargeable AAA Batteries - 16 Packs with BPI 1.6v Ni-Zn Battery charger: Health & Personal [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z0%2B-kL%[email protected]@[email protected]@51z0%2B-kL%2BML

 

[MarkSF]

In my opinion, you're over-thinking it.

The battery tray is only intended to be used as an emergency backup, in case of a flat main battery, in a dire situation. Put the battery tray, and a 20 pack of AAA alkaline batteries in your ditch bag, and forget about them. So it will only transmit at 5W, instead of 6? So what.

Looking for batteries that will give the battery tray the performance of the main battery is a waste of time. For a start, half the volume of the battery tray is filled with AIR! In my experience, rechargeable batteries are always flat when you need them. Hardly something you want as an emergency backup. One key point of alkaline batteries as a backup is extremely long shelf life (2018 expiry date on the ones I just bought).

If your main battery won't last the day, get another one.

NB, Amazon have packs of 20 AC Delco alkaline AAAs for $7.

 

[hellosailor]

Paul-
Yes, those are the ones. I should note, one of the reasons NiZn never conquered the world is apparently because the self-discharge rate skyrockets after some 25 uses or so. At least, that's what I've heard from the same source that recommended them as the best "1.5ish" volt solution for daily use & recharge.

Mark-
Delco? For primary batteries? I don't know but every time CR tests batteries, the "me too" brands come up short somehow, so I avoid them. I've had too damn many alkaline leakers as well, and the price for any of the brand names, even by the 50-pack on Amazon, just has me disgusted. So I'm looking for alternatives and cheaper alkaline cells just won't impress me.

Med-
I'm glad you're willing to try them first. I just hate AAA cells, I think they are a racket since they are priced dead even with AA cells but have 1/4 the power, no excuse for designers using them except to steal money. But having said that, I'd buy the pricey Energizer Lithiums for just-in-case IF they were the answer. Let's see...radio needs 5, package contains 8...I guess that means three to burn in one of the LED flashlights. Now, on to the hotdogs-vs-buns conundrum.(G)

I tried to email SH to confirm what the clueless techie said on the phone, but SH and I apparently no longer share the same Internet connection. According to DARPA that means there's probably been a truly massive nuclear strike, in order to take down all the nodes between here and there.

Or, someone in Shenzhen has attacked Yaesu's servers. Of course the Chinese tell us that could never happen.(G)

 

[MedSailor]

Med-
I'm glad you're willing to try them first. I just hate AAA cells, I think they are a racket since they are priced dead even with AA cells but have 1/4 the power, no excuse for designers using them except to steal money. But having said that, I'd buy the pricey Energizer Lithiums for just-in-case IF they were the answer. Let's see...radio needs 5, package contains 8...I guess that means three to burn in one of the LED flashlights. Now, on to the hotdogs-vs-buns conundrum.(G)

Yup, I'll order some today. I'll use them in my headlamps for backpacking if they don't work out for the radio. Also my other emergency ditch-bag VHF uses AAAs so I can test 2 radios at once. If they work, it'll be lithiums for my lifeboat and ditch bag.

My interest in lithiums comes from the number of leakers I've had with alkalines as well. I'd hate to be bobbing around in my lifeboat and find out the internals of my radio (and maybe the rest of my kit) was eaten alive by a mess of sodium hydroxide. Hmmm... I wonder if that could create a hole in an inflatable life raft...

MedSailor

 

[hellosailor]

For the last 10 or 15 years...maybe 20...every time I have had a leaker (mostly Duracell, many less Energizer, but even one RayOVac) I have made sure to call the company on their guarantee. Had a few devices replaced, cleaned out a few more, but always made sure to tell them I don't care if you have a more powerful battery, I want one that won't leak. Period.

Duracell's new "Quantum" brand, and one from Eveready, both supposedly are more leak-proof now with much longer shelf lives. We'll see, they're both terribly rare in stores.

Much as I prefer to keep batteries IN many things (like flashlights that may be stashed around and ignored for a year or three) I've been learning to keep them out for storage. And to use lots of silicon grease in the battery compartment, which also helps to contain the damage when they do leak.

Apparently the SH charger is a fairly dumb one, they say to remove the radio from the charger after the green light comes on, if the LiOn pack is in it. I guess someone forgot to tell them, many people toss many things in a charger, and then forget to pull it off in the morning, so the standard has to be either "overnight" or "overnight and the next day" if the charger is too dumb to throttle back on its own. (Motorola used to be good at that.)

 

[miatapaul]

For the last 10 or 15 years...maybe 20...every time I have had a leaker (mostly Duracell, many less Energizer, but even one RayOVac) I have made sure to call the company on their guarantee. Had a few devices replaced, cleaned out a few more, but always made sure to tell them I don't care if you have a more powerful battery, I want one that won't leak. Period.

Duracell's new "Quantum" brand, and one from Eveready, both supposedly are more leak-proof now with much longer shelf lives. We'll see, they're both terribly rare in stores.

Much as I prefer to keep batteries IN many things (like flashlights that may be stashed around and ignored for a year or three) I've been learning to keep them out for storage. And to use lots of silicon grease in the battery compartment, which also helps to contain the damage when they do leak.

Apparently the SH charger is a fairly dumb one, they say to remove the radio from the charger after the green light comes on, if the LiOn pack is in it. I guess someone forgot to tell them, many people toss many things in a charger, and then forget to pull it off in the morning, so the standard has to be either "overnight" or "overnight and the next day" if the charger is too dumb to throttle back on its own. (Motorola used to be good at that.)

I noticed the faster discharge, now that you mention it. I used to keep a log about charging my batteries (yea a bit overdoing it) but have stopped. If I had still been keeping it likely woudl have noticed it.

Funny story, my father sent an inexpensive flashlight back to Duracell or Energizer (forget what one) and they sent him this really cool coupon. Basically said one free flashlight. It had no limit on price or anything, just looked like a coupon/check. He bought another cheap flashlight. I was like why didn't you get a good Maglight?(probably the best available at the time) He was like "hey I should have! Always wanted one." I think the shipping on the flashlight was more than the one he wound up buying, but to him it was the principle.

 

[hellosailor]

Found an Energizer spec for their alkalines at http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E92.pdf
and the bad news is...if you read the charts for power output versus burn time?

I'd guess this battery tray, even at the unspecified "reduced output" that SH mentions, really will mean you've got one shot at one five minute call at medium power. Yowser.

That's kind of a rude surprise, but that's all AAA cells are good for?!

I have to check...is a spare LiOn pack more or less than a whole spare radio at the clearance prices? (sigh)

 

[Pendragon35]

$43.51 for a spare pack
[URL="Standard Horizon battery pack for 851"http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=standard+horizon+FNB-121LI[/URL]

 

[MarkSF]

Found an Energizer spec for their alkalines at http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E92.pdf
and the bad news is...if you read the charts for power output versus burn time?

I'd guess this battery tray, even at the unspecified "reduced output" that SH mentions, really will mean you've got one shot at one five minute call at medium power. Yowser.

That's kind of a rude surprise, but that's all AAA cells are good for?!

I have to check...is a spare LiOn pack more or less than a whole spare radio at the clearance prices? (sigh)

One more time. Emergency. Use. Only.

That's why I said a pack of 20 - gives you 20 minutes.

 

[hellosailor]

ROFL. A pack of 20 might give you 20 minutes, but you forget, that would also require 4 battery changes. Four times loading and unloading the tray, removing & inserting in radio, four chances to drop and fumble everything on what might be a very wet and busy day. "USCG, please standby, we're changing batteries again." Uh, not.

I think I'll just treat this one like the old one: when "the" battery is dead, it is dead, TFB if you still need the radio and the ciggy adapter won't do.

The ciggy adapter on the 851 has a special plug on it, maybe that's also 7.5V, in which case I'd just make up a 5-pack of C or D cells with an external plug for that purpose. Beats having a special tray with a five-minute life cycle.(G)

 

[MarkSF]

This is where a DSC portable is so much more useful than a standard one. In roughly 1 second after pressing the big red button, your position, MMSI number, and emergency are uploaded digitally to anything within range with DSC. Because it's digital, it's much more likely to get through ungarbled. You get an automated acknowledgement. The coastguard has massive antennas, so is much more likely to hear you than you are to hear them. That leaves you 19 mins and 59s of battery life!

Of course, this is all assuming that you've a) programmed the MMSI number into the radio, and b) filled out the online form.

 

[hellosailor]

Good question. An MMSI without a ship's license would mean a reprogram and service transits later on. Or another license with exorbitant fee now.

The manual, which I confess to skimming but not studying in depth, gave the impression that a DSC distress call would still work without an MMSI being programmed. ??

Or perhaps a DIY "group" programming number is all it needs to be happy?

 

[SVAuspicious]

Good question. An MMSI without a ship's license would mean a reprogram and service transits later on. Or another license with exorbitant fee now.

What is a service transits?

The manual, which I confess to skimming but not studying in depth, gave the impression that a DSC distress call would still work without an MMSI being programmed. ??

Most radios, not all, will transmit position and "fact of" distress without a MMSI programmed. Since most false alarms (unintentional or not) are from radios without a MMSI more time will be spent on validation before resources are launched.

For US-only day-sailers, weekenders, and coastal cruisers get a free MMSI from BoatUS or USPS and program it into all your DSC capable radios.

 

[MarkSF]

Imagine if the coastguard, as well as an anonymous distress call, knew the name of the boat, a description, typical cruising grounds, emergency contact phone numbers, and so on. If you filled the MMSI out properly, they would.

 

[MedSailor]

Found an Energizer spec for their alkalines at http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E92.pdf
and the bad news is...if you read the charts for power output versus burn time?

I'd guess this battery tray, even at the unspecified "reduced output" that SH mentions, really will mean you've got one shot at one five minute call at medium power. Yowser.

That's kind of a rude surprise, but that's all AAA cells are good for?!

I have to check...is a spare LiOn pack more or less than a whole spare radio at the clearance prices? (sigh)

I confess, last night when I looked at this, I couldn't make heads or tails of it. 5 minutes??? Really? Is that at 5W? Would transmitting at 1w give you 20min?

Could someone be so kind as to walk the back of the class through this? Thanks! Oh, and the AAA Energiser lithiums are on their way for testing. Cost nearly 20% of what the radio cost at this awesomely cheap price.

MedSailor

 

[MarkSF]

Well, I'll do some math and maybe someone could correct my assumptions if needed :

At 5W transmit power, let's assume 100% efficiency (unlikely, I know!) At 7.5V (5 AAA batteries), 5W would be a current of 676 mA. According to the table "constant power performance", and using the 1.2V blue line, we end up at about 0.2 hours (12 minutes).

If we assume some inefficiency, so we're actually using more than 5W, you could easily end up at 0.1 hours - 6 minutes.

 

[MarkSF]

I confess, last night when I looked at this, I couldn't make heads or tails of it. 5 minutes??? Really? Is that at 5W? Would transmitting at 1w give you 20min?

Could someone be so kind as to walk the back of the class through this? Thanks! Oh, and the AAA Energiser lithiums are on their way for testing. Cost nearly 20% of what the radio cost at this awesomely cheap price.

MedSailor

I just stumbled across this thread. Seems that the battery tray is intended to be used with alkalines only. It has trouble transmitting DSC with Lithiums. Maybe they have higher internal resistance?

Per Standard Horizon's instructions : "DO NOT INSTALL ANY OTHER BATTERIES THAN ALKALINE"

Standard Horizon HX851 Battery Tray - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

 

[hellosailor]

"What is a service transits?"
You know, "in transit" to and from service, so it is "in transit" twice, plural? Figure a week each way unless you want to expre$$ it, so you need to pick a convenient time (two weeks in transit, at least another week in shop, might stretch into a full month) to get the MMSI reprogrammed.

That month of no radio could be a deal breaker, even two weeks would be a PITA. If you program a free MMSI now, thanks to the clueless way things were set up, you're going to have to send that radio way to get a "real" MMSI that can be used outside the US, if you go to Canada or the Bahamas or anyplace else. That's just , really? In a sane world, we'd stone the guys who figured out how to complicate life that way for no good reason. And there IS no good reason.

"5W would be a current of 676 mA"
Right. Don't take this the wrong way, but after RTFM, you can get the actual current the radio USES for that output, and IIRC it is way higher. Wait, lifting my lazy butt and reading the manual again...the radio draws 1.6A at 6 or 5W, and a full 1.0A at 2.5W output. So...even on the 1W setting it draws 0.7A, more than the AAA's really want to ever put out.

In disaster planning and response, psychological operations are a big deal. (PsyOps, as the military call them.) This is why people were urged to "donate" pajamas, dry socks, toothbrushes, flashlights, on the days following 9/11, even though those resources were available all over lower Manhattan and NYC by the caseload. Makes people feel useful.

"Here, use the emergency power tray." ROFLMAO, one watt for five minutes?!

Don't get me wrong, I still think for $120 it is a great radio. Just, you know, a bit deceptive to let people think that battery tray is going to be of ANY use.

Maybe if you burn it, it makes thick black smoke? (See? I'm an OPTIMIST!)