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I want to re-ignite the eternal fight of the best sail plan on a boat. I cannot quit my love for the "old style" of boats. My dream boat is a Cherubini. I do not care if it is a ketch or schooner my world traveling boat will have two masts.

1) I know they are more money to maintain but what is the price for redundancy?

2) I will retire from the Army young enough to still want to turn in my own sails and tend to them. Electric wenches are not in anyway a good thing on my boat, weight, another thing to power, and have break.

3) Having a more versatile plan means needing to have more sails or does it? The Cherubini can fly a Yankee, has a reefed main and mizzen. Head sails are already a multiple campaign anyway. So what is really the more? head sails are a given multiple selection but the addition of a stay sail (or two) and a Yankee is well worth it to me. Well maybe this is form over function with the look of a full plan boat on a reach. You can decide.

( I would pick a Yankee over a ~130% genoa, another thing is that the high clew head sail are the bees knees)

So how ridiculous am I? I want to pay more for more.
 

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Freedom isn't free
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You are entitled to love what you love... and given the diverse nature of boat owners on this site, I can't imagine you'll be alone!

Honestly, if it HAS sails, you're there!
 

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Once again, it all comes down to use. If you're sailing around the world, the majority of your sailing is down wind and a split rig has little value, other than to use the mizzen for a radar, windgen etc. If you are sailing the Windwards and Leewards, then the wind is on the beam or forward, so a mizzen can be a lot of help.
If you are just a day sailor, then it doesn't really matter what rig one has, as long as it can be handled alone, unless you want to be dependent on others to go out.
If you are a coastal cruiser/snow bird on the right coast, then you are pretty much stuck with a split rig if you want a bigger boat that sails; the fixed bridges on the ICW sort of limit mast height.
There is no "right" rig, only the rig suitable to one's needs.
 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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I want to re-ignite the eternal fight of the best sail plan on a boat. I cannot quit my love for the "old style" of boats. My dream boat is a Cherubini. I do not care if it is a ketch or schooner my world traveling boat will have two masts.

Certainly should choose whatever rig you want. That is why different rigs have been built.

1) I know they are more money to maintain but what is the price for redundancy?

Not sure that the cost is particularly important after you get past the original purpose. Not sure how redundancy enters the discussion. If you have a triatic stay, and most split rigs do, if you lose one mast, the other mast has a big problem, unless you can work out a way to jury rig a forestay or backstay as needed. Same thing happens with a sloop. If something breaks, you need to jury rig. We sailed well over 1000 miles with jury-rigged lowers on the leeward side last year. Spectra is your friend as is a robust rig of any sort.

2) I will retire from the Army young enough to still want to turn in my own sails and tend to them. Electric wenches are not in anyway a good thing on my boat, weight, another thing to power, and have break.

I am not a fan of electric winches although they can be used manually if the electrics quit. I am in my mid-60s and have no problem using manual winches - of course we have huge winches that cost the original owner a lot of money. Many production boats have winches that are marginal at best.

3) Having a more versatile plan means needing to have more sails or does it? The Cherubini can fly a Yankee, has a reefed main and mizzen. Head sails are already a multiple campaign anyway. So what is really the more? head sails are a given multiple selection but the addition of a stay sail (or two) and a Yankee is well worth it to me. Well maybe this is form over function with the look of a full plan boat on a reach. You can decide.

( I would pick a Yankee over a ~130% genoa, another thing is that the high clew head sail are the bees knees)

You got excellent advice from another poster about the relationship between the rig and the usage you want. Most of our circumnavigation was in the Trades and having a 135 genoa with a big rig worked very well. Would not have wanted a plot rig.
So how ridiculous am I? I want to pay more for more.
My ideal rig, that would let you tackle just about everything would be a sloop with 135% genoa, set up with a solent stay and smaller genoa (~90 to 100%) and with a removable inner stay for a storm sail, along with a furling main and a downwind sail on its own removable furling unit. Might not be as pretty as split rig, but would do the job.
 

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Farr 11.6 (Farr 38)
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I want to re-ignite the eternal fight of the best sail plan on a boat. I cannot quit my love for the "old style" of boats. My dream boat is a Cherubini. I do not care if it is a ketch or schooner my world traveling boat will have two masts.

1) I know they are more money to maintain but what is the price for redundancy?

2) I will retire from the Army young enough to still want to turn in my own sails and tend to them. Electric wenches are not in anyway a good thing on my boat, weight, another thing to power, and have break.

3) Having a more versatile plan means needing to have more sails or does it? The Cherubini can fly a Yankee, has a reefed main and mizzen. Head sails are already a multiple campaign anyway. So what is really the more? head sails are a given multiple selection but the addition of a stay sail (or two) and a Yankee is well worth it to me. Well maybe this is form over function with the look of a full plan boat on a reach. You can decide.

( I would pick a Yankee over a ~130% genoa, another thing is that the high clew head sail are the bees knees)

So how ridiculous am I? I want to pay more for more.
While many of your assumptions show that you don't really have a particularly accurate grasp of how large sail boats work, (i.e. when a ketch or schooner loses one mast, it usually looses two since the structure of one supports the other, or when you have a less efficient rig, it requires more sail area, and that usually translates to some mix of larger, harder to tack headsails, more gear to adjust, or a further reduced performance) none the less, if you prefer to sail a less efficient, harder to handle rig for aesthetic reasons and personal rationalizations, then there is nothing wrong with your plan.

As to the eternal fight, there is no eternal fight among those who approach sailing with a science based understanding of how rigs work. But that does not preclude someone from personally preferring a specific rig for their own purposes. We all make our own decisions about what makes the most sense for us. When dealing with personal preference there is no eternal battle.

Respectfully,
Jeff
 

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Thane's two masts stood with no triatic. When I lost the main at the hounds I sailed back to the harbour (downwind just with the mizzen) just to see if I could. Also had three headsails available on three forstays .Big genie, yankee and then there was the gaff tops'l and the square tops'l .Covered from stormy to show and tell.
 

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More power to you.

My vision of "old school" is much more cheapo and less retro. Let's say, beater Triton but with decent rigging and sails I can coast-crawl in, hand-pump sink, alky stove, ice box, tow a beat-up Dyer, simple simple simple. Carl Alberg's fine with me. This was among the boats I grew up with in the '60s in New England, and loved, still do.
 

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On the other hand how about retro+space age? Two masts, maybe even a gaff, two jibs and everything done up in unstated carbon fiber. You could go all the way with a carbon fiber hull looking traditional top sides but totally modern below the waterline.
Herschoff gave value points for the number of sails a boat could fly. With a double unstayed mast configuration plus deployable bow sprit you could easily get up to seven sails flying at one time.
Wouldn't want to single hand that in a crowded bay!
Jihn
 

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So how ridiculous am I? I want to pay more for more.
You'd fit right in here on the coast of Maine. Schooner rigs are still an industry here after nearly two centuries. They're still working boats now hauling passengers(instead of cargo) on 2 hour to week long charters.

The rigs are pretty easy to manage on the bigger boats, if you have the manpower. But the smaller schooners look pretty easy to handle. The 2 hour boats raise and douse all sails several times a day.

They're not that many schooner rigged cruising boats, but I see a few. And some still get built new, up here. Like a log cabin, somebody will always want a schooner.

I like your comment, "I want to pay more for more". There's no doubt a Cherubini schooner will cost a bit. And any double rig is costly to build and maintain.

But what better reason to buy a boat and sail away, than that you just love the boat.
 

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Get what you love. Nothing about the decision to buy a boat is based in rationality, it's all based in insanity! Sailing is the slowest way to go anywhere, but we do it because we love it. Our ships require a lot from us, and you'd better be madly in love with your ship or you'll grow to resent the time and expense that she'll demand.

MedSailor
 

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Old Guy
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The only thing I'd add to Med's post is to question if your love for split rigs is based aesthetics, or on experience you've had sailing them? While there are lots of possible sail combinations available with them, and indeed some folks have and use 'em all, most ketches and yawls I've seen sailing the last umpteen years very rarely hoist a mizzen in practice. That said, I feel strongly that love for your boat is far and away the #1 consideration, and if two masts make your heart sing, well brother, go for it!
 

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The only thing I'd add to Med's post is to question if your love for split rigs is based aesthetics, or on experience you've had sailing them? While there are lots of possible sail combinations available with them, and indeed some folks have and use 'em all, most ketches and yawls I've seen sailing the last umpteen years very rarely hoist a mizzen in practice. That said, I feel strongly that love for your boat is far and away the #1 consideration, and if two masts make your heart sing, well brother, go for it!
Baah! Heresy! That's just because they're sloop sailors who don't know how to sail a ketch. We, on the other hand, almost never took our mizzen down on our Formosa. We sailed jib and mizzen as often as with all 3 sails, and always left it up at anchor. Sometimes, we'd go several days without striking the sail once.



Medsailor
 

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That said, I feel strongly that love for your boat is far and away the #1 consideration, and if two masts make your heart sing, well brother, go for it!
I'm of exactly the other school of thought. Loving your boat, especially a liveaboard cruising boat is a headache and very counter productive. I had a gold plate gaffer built in 1909, which I sailed through the South seas for 5.5 years. Every time I entered an anchorage, the natives would come out and toss coconuts and what not on deck as a welcoming gift, dinging my varnish, scratching my topside paint and messing up the decks with papaya sap, etc. Any ding or damage to the boat was heartbreaking.
Getting rid of my beautiful gaffer was the biggest relief and a huge load off my mind.
I now own a very good boat, that suits my needs, which I really like. But I don't love her, nor am I bothered when a local comes alongside in his unfendered wooden pirogue and tosses coconuts, lobster or papaya on her decks.
I am sailing with a sense of freedom that I never had with my beautiful, beloved, classic. I would never recommend anyone buy a boat because they love it or because they are thinking first of her looks. That is a sure road to heartbreak, if you use your boat for anything more than show.
 

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Get what you love. Nothing about the decision to buy a boat is based in rationality, it's all based in insanity! Sailing is the slowest way to go anywhere, but we do it because we love it. Our ships require a lot from us, and you'd better be madly in love with your ship or you'll grow to resent the time and expense that she'll demand.

MedSailor
'Slow' just gives people more time to admire your style. :)



----- Pilot Schooner 45 -----
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The Cheribinis are heart breakingly beautiful but they are
wet
very narrow with little usable space below
hard to work on as access may not be great with so much crammed in.
lots of string to pull. lots of sails/slots to worry about. lots to get back winded.

If I had the money I would get a Cheribini stay sail schooner. I would love one to do the Maine to Bahamas thing. But offshore unless I could reliably collect another 3 experienced offshore sailors for every passage I stick with a solent and removable stormjib stay.
 
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