[Dennis G]

A135 Jib with CDI FF2 roller furling with bearings and a main . I am looking for opinions on full battons compared topartial. ...and any other recomendations or comments

Product Code​	Category​	Sail Type​	Price​	Subtotal​
​	Roller Furling Package​	Sm Lead Block Kit​	$ 235.00​	$ 235.00​
​	Roller Furling Package​	CDI FF2​	$ 100.00​	$ 100.00​
RF22.8C​	Roller Furling Package​	CDI FF2​	$ 1465.00​	$ 1465.00​
CM21.0LFB​	Mainsails​	Main​	$ 711.00​	$ 711.00​

 

[Sailormon6]

I think fully battened mainsails might be good for long distance, blue water sailing, because they do seem to resist chafe. But for a boat like a C22, that is going to spend most of its time sailing inland lakes and bays, and especially if you are new to sailing, I think a mainsail with all partial battens is a better choice.

Your choices are Fully battened, 2 full and 2 partial battens and all partial battens. The optimum sailing performance will be with the first two choices, because the full battens will support a bigger roach, and that means you'll have more sail area, but that sail area comes at a cost. Full battens typically get caught on the backstay every time you tack or gybe. Whether you're a racer or a cruiser, that's a huge pain, but racers are willing to put up with it in exchange for a tiny speed advantage. If you're just pleasure cruising, the small speed differential isn't enough to justify the nuisance every time you tack or gybe.

If you look at a full battened mainsail, you'll see that it really can't luff because the battens hold it smooth from luff to leech. When you first learned to sail, your instructor told you to trim the mainsail in, and then let it out just until it starts to lift at the leading edge. You lose that with a full battened mainsail.

More importantly, however, is the fact that having a completely smooth mainsail is not always desirable. It's desirable until the wind strength increases to the point that you need to depower the main sail, to keep the boat on its feet. At that point you need to either tuck in a reef or depower the mainsail by sail trimming.

You can depower it by using the outhaul and the halyard or cunningham, and you can depower it by easing the traveler slightly and creating a "bubble" in the luff of the mainsail. The bubble is created when the wind coming off the genoa partially backwinds the mainsail. It's often called a "fishermen's reef." It's often used by racers, but it's also useful for cruisers.

Full battens resist the creation of that bubble. If you intend to rig your boat so that you can tuck in a reef and shake it out in a few seconds, then a full battened mainsail might be a small benefit. I've been racing sailboats of all sizes for over 50 years, and most race crews typically consist of volunteers who come and go and aren't very familiar with the boat, and they can't reef the mainsail without losing time and boat speed. That's why they use a fishermen's reef. They can depower the mainsail without losing time and speed.

You haven't mentioned whether your new sail will have an attached foot or loose foot. "Back in the day," mainsails were attached to the boom, usually with a bolt rope. Sailors often tied the clew of their mainsails so that their tension couldn't be adjusted. Modern sails are attached only at the tack and clew. Loose footed mainsails forced sailors to make their outhaul adjustable. Having done so, they started to play with the outhaul adjustment, and they learned how much they could improve the sailing of the boat by adjusting outhaul tension as the wind increased and decreased. Your quote is almost certainly for a loose footed mainsail, but you should ask to be sure.

The question, as usual, is how do you intend to use the boat? Do you intend to casually cruise or race? Do you want optimum performance, regardless of the nuisance you must tolerate to get it? I'm a racer, and I'll tolerate damn near anything for an extra 1/64th kt of speed. You have to choose.

 

[Dennis G]

First off I thank you for the time, effort and detail you put into your responce. I honestly do not have the answers to many of the points you question. HomeyD, name of my boat, is still burried under the snow here in NH. I can tell you I am not interested in racing. I am 70 years young and find myself often sailing by myself. I have been sailing a Mariner for a few years now. Moving up to a little larger boat I can sleep on alowing me to head out on Chesapeek bar for a few days is my dream. I am more thinking of a better set-up which doesn't end with the sails all over the place, ie... Lazy jacks and full battons. Hopefully alowing me to lower the main and flake it into order by myself and with grace. Now that you have pointed out the performance issues I 'll go back and analize each. I was concerned about it chafing the topping line and thinking of a rigid vang but then thought I would make the topping line easily slackened and pin it to the rear stay while sailing lifting it out and away. Thank you for your help.
Dennis

 

[robm]

Depends on your goals with the main.
If you are looking for easier handling when hoisting and dousing, short battens.

Longevity- hands down, full battens as long as the luff is properly constructed to handle the battens, and for that size boat it should not be an issue. Full battens will at least double the life of the sail as long as you take care of it, ie keep it covered when not in use and don't otherwise abuse it.

Short battens poke the cloth at the foward end of the batten and will fairly quickly develop a bump at that spot. Race boats that have deep pocket owners will get short battens and replace the main frequently.

So if you have the money to replace the main more frequently, short battens. If you want it to last longer, full battens.

 

[OntarioTheLake]

If you're in NH the boat will be used only part of the year, and the life of the sails, no matter what battens, will be 20-30 years. I think neither one will impact resale value. I'd just go short battens to make life easier.

 

[SchockT]

The mainsail on my boat came with partial battens and I just had it converted to full battens. That conversion has breathed new life into a sail that was starting to get tired.

When the time comes to buy a new sail I will definitely order it with full battens, because the benefits far out weigh any negatives.

Full battens maintain good sail shape far better than partial battens, particularly as the sail ages. I disagree with the assertion that you can't depower a full batten sail because "you can't create a bubble in the luff". The bubble is a symptom of a luffing sail, it is not the reason the sail is depowered. The best way to depower a mainsail is to flatten it. It will also depower if it is eased out, even if the luff isn't visibly backwinding.

When it comes to ease of handling, I find the full battens way easier than partial, particularly with my stack pack. (Lazy jacks and sail bag combined). With the partial battens when I dropped the mainsail it would inevitably bunch up, and I would have to stop lowering, straighten the sail out along the boom, and then continue lowering, sometimes multiple times. When raising the sail the partial battens were much more prone to getting caught on the lazy jacks. With the full battens only the shorter top batten is prone to catching on the lazy jacks, and once it is clear the rest of the battens don't have tendency to foul. When it comes to dropping the full batten sail all I have to do is pop the halyard and let it drop. The battens keep the bulk of the sail in line with the boom. I just have to tidy the sail and zip the bag up.

My only caveat would be that each batten should have a batten car to ensure the tension on the batten does not cause the luff to bind against the mast.

While it is true that full battens are more prone to catching on the backstay, that is usually on race sails where they are trying to maximize the roach of the sail. The sailmaker should be able to cut the sail in such a way that it isn't a problem.

The biggest advantage to partial battens is cost. It is cheaper to do partial battens.


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[Sailormon6]

Many sailors obsess about having their mainsail smooth all the time. A smooth mainsail is generating maximum power. But, as the windspeed increases, you reach a point when the boat is heeling excessively, and you need to depower the sails. You can depower the mainsail by flattening it or by luffing it or by reefing it. Inducing a bubble in the mainsail depowers it by luffing it. The more you luff it, the bigger the bubble.

Here's an example of how to use a fishermen's reef effectively. We were racing one design in wind rapidly increasing to 30 kts. Sailing closehauled about 1 mile from the finish line, the boat ahead of us tucked a reef in her mainsail. We continued without tucking in a reef. Instead, we created a massive bubble in the mainsail. The mainsail was luffed so severely that only about 1' of the leech of the mainsail was actually lying down flat. That strip of fabric really wasn't providing much forward momentum. It was mostly helping to keep the bow pointing to closehauled. While the opponent was tucking in the reef, we sailed past and beat her across the finish line.

You can't do that with a full battened mainsail, because the battens hold the sail flat. You can do it with a sail that has 2 full and 2 partial battens, and with a sail with all partial battens. I race with 2 full and 2 partial battens. On occasion when I race singlehanded, I can use a fishermen's reef to keep the boat on her feet as the wind rises, without having to reef singlehanded.

The sails that you or I would choose for our boats are not necessarily the best choices for Dennis G, who is interested in cruising. My recommendation was based on what I think would be most compatible with the way he intends to use the boat and, consequently, what he would most enjoy.

 

[robm]

.....
You can't do that with a full battened mainsail, because the battens hold the sail flat. You can do it with a sail that has 2 full and 2 partial battens, and with a sail with all partial battens. I race with 2 full and 2 partial battens. On occasion when I race singlehanded, I can use a fishermen's reef to keep the boat on her feet as the wind rises, without having to reef singlehanded.

The sails that you or I would choose for our boats are not necessarily the best choices for Dennis G, who is interested in cruising. My recommendation was based on what I think would be most compatible with the way he intends to use the boat and, consequently, what he would most enjoy.

Lift force is only a function of angle of attack, not whether or not you see a visual bubble or the degree of "smoothness." If there is not a pressure differential from one side of the main to the other, then no lift is created. I have a full battened main and routinely partially unload it when I need to reduce power. I can see the unloaded region by looking at the cloth between the battens and gage the light flutter even though the curvature is consistent from luff to leech. When in partial power mode, the loaded region towards the leech is tight and does not flutter. It is just trickier to see the transition region and takes practice to trim right for a full batten v short batten mainsail..

 

[SchockT]

Many sailors obsess about having their mainsail smooth all the time. A smooth mainsail is generating maximum power. But, as the windspeed increases, you reach a point when the boat is heeling excessively, and you need to depower the sails. You can depower the mainsail by flattening it or by luffing it or by reefing it. Inducing a bubble in the mainsail depowers it by luffing it. The more you luff it, the bigger the bubble.

Here's an example of how to use a fishermen's reef effectively. We were racing one design in wind rapidly increasing to 30 kts. Sailing closehauled about 1 mile from the finish line, the boat ahead of us tucked a reef in her mainsail. We continued without tucking in a reef. Instead, we created a massive bubble in the mainsail. The mainsail was luffed so severely that only about 1' of the leech of the mainsail was actually lying down flat. That strip of fabric really wasn't providing much forward momentum. It was mostly helping to keep the bow pointing to closehauled. While the opponent was tucking in the reef, we sailed past and beat her across the finish line.

You can't do that with a full battened mainsail, because the battens hold the sail flat. You can do it with a sail that has 2 full and 2 partial battens, and with a sail with all partial battens. I race with 2 full and 2 partial battens. On occasion when I race singlehanded, I can use a fishermen's reef to keep the boat on her feet as the wind rises, without having to reef singlehanded.

The sails that you or I would choose for our boats are not necessarily the best choices for Dennis G, who is interested in cruising. My recommendation was based on what I think would be most compatible with the way he intends to use the boat and, consequently, what he would most enjoy.

Like Robm says, it is the change in angle of attack that is depowering the sail, not the resulting bubble in the luff!

I actually had to look up "fisherman's reef" because I have never heard that term...we call it "dropping the traveler"! And it is a depowering technique that can be used effectively on any mainsail regardless of it's batten configuration!

There are a lot of factors that influence how much "bubble" you see on a mainsail. On a lot of older masthead IOR boats I raced on it was normal to have a bit of bubble in the luff when close hauled due to the tight headsail sheeting angles and the large headsail overlap. It was often referred to as the "speed bubble". Certainly there were times when we were so overpowered that the traveler was dropped down so far that only the leech of the main was still driving and the rest of the main was backwinded, but again a fully battened main would also be depowered in that situation even if the backwind bubble was not as dramatic.

If a mainsail is old and blown out you will get a lot of bubble in the luff when you ease it out because the sail is too full. In that case even with a big bubble in the luff the sail will still be overpowered because the rest for the sail is still too full. Full battens help keep a sail from getting too full with age, so in that situation a full batten sail would depower better.

Again, the bubble in the luff is not what is depowering the sail, it is a symptom of the shallow angle of attack that IS depowering the sail.


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[danvon]

My C27 had a full battened main which worked very well- I think it is helpful in light air. We had no trouble handling a reefed main if the wind really picked up. Also, on a boat that size, the CDI furler is a really nice solution.

 

[Dennis G]

Thank you all for all the time and thought you have put in on my question. I must admit much of it is over my head at this point but now I asm more aware of what to think about. What is most important to me at this point is a sail that will flake into a set of lazy jacks and if I can afford it a cover that will ZIp up. What is that called? If , as danvon predicts, they perform well in light air all the better. I plan on being a fair weather sailor. When the wind approaches the 20 knot range I plan on heading for the nearest cove. Thank you all for your help. I appreciate it.
Dennis

 

[SchockT]

What is most important to me at this point is a sail that will flake into a set of lazy jacks and if I can afford it a cover that will ZIp up. What is that called?

It is called different things, I it a "Stack Pack" others call it a "Lazy Bag" or "Lazy Pack".

I love ours! It makes handling the main a breeze, particularly on bigger sails. Some people don't like the look of the bag always being on the boom, but it doesn't bother me. It's all about the convenience.

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[Sailormon6]

IMO, the value of this discussion is not that it provides you all the "right" answers, but that it gives you a sufficient understanding of the issues so that you can ask the right questions of your sailmaker, and it will help you understand what your sailmaker says. Tell your sailmaker how you intend to use your sails (racing vs cruising and shorthanded vs crewed) and where you'll sail (eg. inland lake, bay and coastal cruising, etc.), and let them guide you. Deal with the more prominent sailmakers. There are discount companies that don't make sails. They only market sails that are made by others. You'll get the most knowledgeable guidance from the long established sailmakers. Finally, don't be shy about asking if any discounts are available. Sometimes boat show discounts are available, if you ask.

 

[Dennis G]

I have several request out and I think they are quality companies. I hesitate to actually post names in this forum but will scrutinize them a bit more thoroughly. Thanks again to all.
Dernnis