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moderate?
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1,000 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
First let me say that this is no joke and allow me to thank the many good friends and members who have made my job as moderator worthwhile and lent their support in tough times. I am NOT leaving sailnet; just ending my tenure as a moderator. Now let me get into why.

As many are aware, I started a "Prospective Tartan Buyers" thread here in summer of 2007. My initial purpose was to make members aware that there were reports of Tartan/C&C hull and outdrive problems and that a couple of owners had filed suit. I took no side then on that issue but merely alerted potential customers to a possible issue and suggested that buyers get a survey done and/or investigate the reports on their own. A year and a half and 464 posts later, the thread had taken on a life of its own and many unflattering facts had come to light about the management and legal and financial position of the company while the original issue I raised has still not been settled by the courts. It is not my intention to re-hash that thread here. The important thing to me is that the thread alerted fellow sailors to the possibility of some product problems that could possibly be a major issue at sea AND that Tartan/Novis has well over $1million dollars in judgment liens OPEN against them and several more suits pending. Prospective buyers should be aware of this so that they can take steps to protect themselves before taking possession of a boat or making deposits.

Imagine my surprise when Sailnet took this thread off line in late October.
To make a long story short... William Ross, President of Novis/Tartan called Sailnet management to complain about the "biased" nature of the thread and asked them to take it down. He made it clear that there was a possibility of legal action if they did not.

Sailnet management removed the thread without understanding the content or context since they do NOT follow this board closely. They did understand the math...remove the thread at no cost...or face a possible lawsuit costing 10's of thousands of dollars.

Over the last few weeks, CruisingDad and I have been trying to help Sailnet management understand the thread and they have come to realize, I believe, that there is a moral issue here and a free speech issue as well as a business issue. The bottom line is that despite what they might like or choose to do in normal times... they simply cannot afford to get involved in a lawsuit even if there is an overwhelming likelihood that they would eventually win. I was told that they would have to lay someone off to be able to fight a suit. Given that stark choice, I told Sailnet that I would probably make the same decision to delete the thread... but could no longer remain a moderator for a site that deletes a thread so important to sailors.

So folks...that is the unvarnished truth. I am not sure if this post will be allowed to stand or be deleted too and would ask my friends to make copies of it so that if it is deleted, it may go viral!

I want to once again state that I bear NO ill will to anyone at sailnet as they are not the CAUSE of the thread being deleted...only the implementers and VERY reluctant ones at that. For those still interested in reading the content of the thread you can get it all but in bits and pieces at Google using their "cache" function and entering prospective tartan site:www.sailnet.com/forums in the google search box.

I intend to remain a contributing member here with my friends unless my posts start getting deleted in which case you can find me over at cruisersforum under the same screen name.

Again... thank you all for your support and understanding.

Cam
 

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Tartan 27' owner
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5,242 Posts
So, not only is the formerly good name of Tartan Yachts ( & C & C) being dragged through the mud by their current management but our good friend and (former) moderator Camaraderie is resigning.
This is a sad day for free speech my friends and a very sad day for the Novis/Tartan brand. This kind of strong armed tactic should be very reassuring to prospective buyers.
I still like my pre-Novis built Tartan 27' from 1967 whent the company had a high standard of quality and integrity.
Mostly, I am sorry to hear of the anguish and BS you had to endure through all of this Cam. You have been nothing but a gentleman here, IMHO.
A sad day indeed.
CalebD
T27 #328, 'Odalisque'
 

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Registered
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The fact that they (Tartan) are actively engaged in pursuing discussion threads on the internet and requesting they be removed speaks volumes more than even the thread itself could ever say. Thank you for your service here on sailnet. I have always enjoyed your posts and respected your "moderation."
 

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Registered
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2,527 Posts
Cam,

Very sorry to see you give up your position. You did a very good job as moderator and will miss pocking fun at your red button, but I do understand your decision. glad you will still be here as a member to share your wealth of knowledge.
 

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Glad I found Sailnet
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3,842 Posts
Camraderie -- Very sad to see you relinquish your post. You've been a great moderator.

All -- Is anyone going to try to capture the old thread? Just because sailnet can't host it, doesn't mean it has to go away.
 

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ancient mariner
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439 Posts
cam_____ thanks for the help you have given me when i needed it . you did a great lob as moderator. sorry to see the elimination of free speech . do we sig heil to tarten with our upraised arm. i am old enough to remember hitlers fanatic followers with their upraised arms
 

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Super Fuzzy Moderator
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17,137 Posts
Cam...you'll get no grief from me for standing by your principles.......

Salute
 

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Super Fuzzy Moderator
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17,137 Posts
Cam...you'll get no grief from me for standing by your principles.......

Salute
ps - refer to my post re SA v SN on the DC thread....maybe this is part of what it's all about......
 

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Sorry to hear you're resigning as Moderator, Cam. Have always enjoyed and valued your posts.

And, I hope that you will continue to participate here and elsewhere. Your name and reputation are such that it won't matter a damned bit to most Sailnet participants that the "Moderator" title will no longer appear with your name.

Bill
 

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Courtney the Dancer
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3,971 Posts
Say it aint so, Cam! I applaud your decision to resign based on the circumstances, glad you will still be participating.

John
 

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Cam,

It's a real shame that your efforts to help prospective Tartan owners should end like this. No good deed goes unpunished, eh?

But SailNet is losing a well-respected moderator -- ultimately their loss.

I hope you're able to continue participating so we can all benefit from your experience and expertise. -JRP
 

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Hmm...

it would seem that there is a bit of a free speech issue happening here. Isn't this something that you Americans prize above all else ? I think that the responsible thing to do would be to post the thread on all the Sailing sites...

I don't think that they could afford to sue all the website operators at the same time could they ???
 

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1977 Morgan OI 30
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438 Posts
Sorry to see that.

If Tartan put some of the effort into correcting the real problem that they put into legal intimidation, perhaps they would have saved what is now a sinking ship. Remember rule #1? The customer is always right. Thanks for the truth Cam. You did an excellant job.
 

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Around one year ago I posted a question as a newbie looking for info on bahamas cruising. Cam, you answered many of my questions (very well) and last Jan. I crossed the stream and spent almost 3 months having the time of my life, following much of your advice. Now I am really hooked on cruising whereas before I just liked boats. This is just one example of the positive impact you have on this community. Thanks for your service as moderator in the past, but please don't withdraw your insight and support from the community.
 

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Senior Member
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19,489 Posts
Applaud your position, Cam, yet very sorry to lose your services and contributions to this board as moderator.

Please do stick around, your "boatless" status will not be held against you!!;)
 

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I don't discuss my member
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2,627 Posts
it would seem that there is a bit of a free speech issue happening here. Isn't this something that you Americans prize above all else?
Americans of late seem more than happy to give up their cherished freedoms without much complaint. That being said, this forum is a privately owned enterprise, a service that SailNet provides to its users for free and SailNet absolutely has the right to control content. It's their sandbox, they just let us play in it. Free speech in this forum is what SailNet says it is. And that's as it should be.

I think that the responsible thing to do would be to post the thread on all the Sailing sites...
I agree 100%.
 

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Owner, Green Bay Packers
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Gee, a man with honor, what a refreshing experience it is to encounter one. And a gentleman as well. There was nothing posted by our ex-moderator that could be construed as anything but what he has just said it was, objective information. And I'd say that the resignation was conducted with dignity as well, to Sailnet's loss. I fully understand Sailnet's position; they've all the risk while we risk little if anything.

As to Tartan, certain conclusions may be drawn and you may be sure that I probably agree with the membership's more obvious ones. I'm sure that they considered alienating Sailnet's vast membership when they vowed legal action. I'll be communicating my feeling about that elsewhere rather than here. I seem to recall a boat show coming up in Chicago where some other principled sailors meet annually.
 
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