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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is in response to another thread:

Seems like several people over here don't think that "poor" people should be raising their children on boats.


My wife and I traveled in an RV for several years in California and Arizona. Our oldest daughter who is 17 and graduated early was completely home schooled. She was in the K-12 program for several years and then transferred to Connections Academy when In 2010 I took a job in Iowa and we sold the RV and relocated to a house there.

We love to travel and aren't much into "stability". After, once again, failing to fall into the 9-5 home life of having a house, we bought a boat.

I spent a couple of months looking at boats and dreaming in the winter of 2012 and spring of 2013. Then we decided to actually do it. Buy Oct 2013, I had a deposit down and paid cash for it when I picked it up on the first of Nov, 2013.

We don't have a lot of money and live off of a very small budget. We have always been the poorest of all of our friends when we RV'd and been criticized for not being "stable" and having children.

In the USA, people consider it child neglect if you are poor can't give your children much. We have always been very mindful of making sure there is food to eat, clean clothes to wear, and regular bathing. Even through all that, we had been under scrutiny at one point in California for our lifestyle choice.

Our oldest is now no longer a child and our baby is 7 years old. We live in fear that some "do-gooder" is going to think they know what is best for our daughter and report us to Child Protective Services.

A post in another thread made me realize how blown out of proportion that "the facts" can be.

1. We have no "running water". We have a pump system.
2. We don't put toilet paper down the head, we put it in a waste basket next to the head.
3. We have no built in heat. We use a electric space heater at the dock and a My Buddy Propane heater at anchor.
4. We have no shower on the boat, we have to rely on marina showers or solar showers.
5. We have very little food on the boat because of storage restrictions and can only keep some much meat at a time because we have an Ice Box and no ability to freeze anything.


So, as you can see from the facts the media pointed out, they might have been technically right about everything they wrote in that article.

Our boat is old. It's 30' and feels more like a 22' Mini Winnie Motorhome. There is not a lot of living space in the cabin. But, each of the two girls have their own sleeping area and we sleep in the V-Berth.

How do you explain to the ignorant that mold/mildew are realities on a boat when everyone sees that sort of thing a health hazard and consider it unsafe.

The media and "do-gooders" can twist things anyway they want. While they may be technically correct in their statements, they may also be way out of context.

We aren't rich people. We enjoy mobility, adventure, and being on the move.

So, If you are like us and want to include your children in your cruising adventure, beware that some ******* is going to think they know how to raise your kids better than you.

We don't live on a derelict boat, by any stretch of the imagination. But, we also don't have the amenities of a Grand Banks. We make due with what we have and can afford.

My oldest daughter plainly states that we aren't white trash, we are white clutter.

IMG_2723.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #3
What promoted this post? Who's the ******* who is telling you how to raise your children?
Seems like several people over here don't think that "poor" people should be raising their children on boats.

The thread went from a clear case of child neglect to delusional greenhorns who include their children in their dream to sail and cruise.
 

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Very interesting perspective...and is changing my opinion on all these efforts to clean out homeless from the streets and/or derelicts from anchorages.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Very interesting perspective...and is changing my opinion on all these efforts to clean out homeless from the streets and/or derelicts from anchorages.

People talk about cleaning the homeless off the streets. Where do people think they go? The term should be "chasing them off". They don't magically decide to get a house because laws are made to prevent them from sleeping on the street.

I never meant to imply that derelict boats should be overlooked either. I think boats should have the same requirements as cars. They should have to be registered and insured. If they meet those two requirements, then that's a start. The problem comes in lack of ability to enforce those laws.

I think homelessness is a social issue that needs to be addressed in a humane way. Chasing people off and into hiding isn't addressing the issue.
 

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Pearson, hold on.
Before you get too defensive,and before this blows up into a far far bigger issue than the non-issue it actually is... no one is lumping you in with the example shown. You're on a dock, on shore power, you have heat, your kids are apparently happy, clean, no one is going hungry, and you all regularly leave the boat, AND you are on good relations with the marina and those around you.
On the other hand, the boat that started this is 28' long, apparently unable to move under it's own power, at anchor, occupied by three adults, two teen boys and two dogs. There is no way for the crew to get to shore, no way for the dogs to get to shore, no heat, and with two dogs on a boat for a sustained period of time i can imagine what the deck of that boat looked like. they refused coast guard assistance after having to be rescued once before.
They ain't you... but they are a a hell of a cautionary tale.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Pearson, hold on.
Before you get too defensive,and before this blows up into a far far bigger issue than the non-issue it actually is... no one is lumping you in with the example shown. You're on a dock, on shore power, you have heat, your kids are apparently happy, clean, no one is going hungry, and you all regularly leave the boat, AND you are on good relations with the marina and those around you.
On the other hand, the boat that started this is 28' long, apparently unable to move under it's own power, at anchor, occupied by three adults, two teen boys and two dogs. There is no way for the crew to get to shore, no way for the dogs to get to shore, no heat, and with two dogs on a boat for a sustained period of time i can imagine what the deck of that boat looked like. they refused coast guard assistance after having to be rescued once before.
They ain't you... but they are a a hell of a cautionary tale.
It is a very sensitive issue with us. We are not at the dock forever.

I see what marinas cost on the east coast and we'll be anchoring out a lot. This is the main reason we are staying here. It is cheap and will give us the chance to make upgrades to the boat and better prepare ourselves for when we can no longer afford a marina.

It concerns us greatly how people see us. We just want to be left alone and allowed to raise our children and live our lives the way we see fit without interference from "do-gooders".

That whole situation in Maryland started because a "do-gooder" saw a child on deck bundled up in a blanket. It didn't start because someone saw the condition of the boat.

What if someone called CPS on us because they didn't like something they saw or didn't agree with. Now all of a sudden we are under a microscope with some government agency telling us to live our life different.

What if CPS thinks a solar shower isn't good enough when we are anchored out because we can't afford $50 a night an east coast marina?

Things can snowball in a hurry when you aren't rich and can't defend yourself against people who are nosy and start making telephone calls.
 

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This points to the perils of regulating things...and regulation in general. Most bad laws start with good intentions. Just think of the ramifications of people being able to swoop aboard your boat...even if it is poop stained. When I'm away from my boat, the birds get me good. Does that mean that its a derelict? What if I wash that bird poop overboard...am I now polluting the waterways? Can they confiscate my boat now?

Better to have STRONG COMMUNITIES and systems (neighbors, churches, etc) handle situations like this than the government.
 

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People talk about cleaning the homeless off the streets. Where do people think they go? The term should be "chasing them off". They don't magically decide to get a house because laws are made to prevent them from sleeping on the street.

I never meant to imply that derelict boats should be overlooked either. I think boats should have the same requirements as cars. They should have to be registered and insured. If they meet those two requirements, then that's a start. The problem comes in lack of ability to enforce those laws.

I think homelessness is a social issue that needs to be addressed in a humane way. Chasing people off and into hiding isn't addressing the issue.
Exactly. Many people equate moving homeless people out of their sight, with having solved the problem. On land and on water.
 

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It concerns us greatly how people see us. We just want to be left alone and allowed to raise our children and live our lives the way we see fit without interference from "do-gooders".

That whole situation in Maryland started because a "do-gooder" saw a child on deck bundled up in a blanket. It didn't start because someone saw the condition of the boat.


Things can snowball in a hurry when you aren't rich and can't defend yourself against people who are nosy and start making telephone calls.
MD is the epitome of "nanny states". The gov't there, as well as many of their citizens, feel the need to "get involved" in every aspect of a life.

The rub comes in, where your life style is not one that is socially acceptable by that state's regs and rules. They will not hesitate to get involved and since they own the water right up to my water line in VA - they are able to actually dictate what two states do on the water.

As the do-gooders do more, and make their case - the more you will see interference in those life styles that are not socially acceptable. Yours would not be overly popular in MD. They want conformists, who question nothing, do what the gov't and their minions dictate.

I no longer live there, for these reasons and many more, but my family struggles with the constant intrusion of the state in to their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
 

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seems in usa one is negligent if one has children and no job... my son went thru having his daughter stolen from him by his derelict dad spouse abusing father....and CPSSTOOD WITH THe derelict dad spouse abusing JERK WHO PUSHED MY SON OUT OF A VEHICLE IN FRONT OF A HOMELESS SHELTER AND STOLE HIS DAUGHTER.
ok....i have worked in hospitals and respect social services. HOWEVER there is a LOT wrong with cps. i have found they will in the name of family unity, leave abused kids with the abusers. yet when .....gggrrrr..is not sensible and will never make any sense.
yes .
folks without money in usa are disrespected in and from many aspects of their lifestyles.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
MD is the epitome of "nanny states". The gov't there, as well as many of their citizens, feel the need to "get involved" in every aspect of a life.

The rub comes in, where your life style is not one that is socially acceptable by that state's regs and rules. They will not hesitate to get involved and since they own the water right up to my water line in VA - they are able to actually dictate what two states do on the water.

As the do-gooders do more, and make their case - the more you will see interference in those life styles that are not socially acceptable. Yours would not be overly popular in MD. They want conformists, who question nothing, do what the gov't and their minions dictate.

I no longer live there, for these reasons and many more, but my family struggles with the constant intrusion of the state in to their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I agree! That's why doing anything other than waking up, going to work, and dying before you can collect retirement is considered a threat and "they" want to stop that.

This is my concern. We are living outside the norm.
 

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MD is the epitome of "nanny states". The gov't there, as well as many of their citizens, feel the need to "get involved" in every aspect of a life.

The rub comes in, where your life style is not one that is socially acceptable by that state's regs and rules. They will not hesitate to get involved and since they own the water right up to my water line in VA - they are able to actually dictate what two states do on the water.

As the do-gooders do more, and make their case - the more you will see interference in those life styles that are not socially acceptable. Yours would not be overly popular in MD. They want conformists, who question nothing, do what the gov't and their minions dictate.

I no longer live there, for these reasons and many more, but my family struggles with the constant intrusion of the state in to their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I have a brother who has a cabin in Alaska. A large percentage of homes out of the cities in Alaska don't have bathrooms and still use outhouses. Many don't have piped in water and use cisterns. Many are off the electrical grid and have to make their own electricity. They are all self-sufficient people to the max.

That and a lot of other things that they do there, would make the average Marylander go catatonic (I lived for five years in Maryland).

He told me a good story from the other day. He had someone up from the states helping him on a construction project who became upset when he saw the 12 gauge shotgun mounted in a rack behind a bulldozer (for bears). Especially when he found it was loaded and wasn't even locked. He was even more surprised to find it had been like that for five years and that none of the people who lived there and saw it were upset.

Imagine the grief if you did something like that in Maryland. You would never get out of jail,except to be sued by someone. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #15
seems in usa one is negligent if one has children and no job... my son went thru having his daughter stolen from him by his derelict dad spouse abusing father....and CPSSTOOD WITH THe derelict dad spouse abusing JERK WHO PUSHED MY SON OUT OF A VEHICLE IN FRONT OF A HOMELESS SHELTER AND STOLE HIS DAUGHTER.
ok....i have worked in hospitals and respect social services. HOWEVER there is a LOT wrong with cps. i have found they will in the name of family unity, leave abused kids with the abusers. yet when .....gggrrrr..is not sensible and will never make any sense.
yes .
folks without money in usa are disrespected in and from many aspects of their lifestyles.
CPS is responsible for the death of a lot of children in the US. Foster children are killed by foster parents on a regular basis here. The "steal kids and adopt them out" racket is big business in America.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I have a brother who has a cabin in Alaska. A large percentage of homes out of the cities in Alaska don't have bathrooms and still use outhouses. Many don't have piped in water and use cisterns. Many are off the electrical grid and have to make their own electricity. They are all self-sufficient people to the max.

That and a lot of other things that they do there, would make the average Marylander go catatonic (I lived for five years in Maryland).

He told me a good story from the other day. He had someone up from the states helping him on a construction project who became upset when he saw the 12 gauge shotgun mounted in a rack behind a bulldozer (for bears). Especially when he found it was loaded and wasn't even locked. He was even more surprised to find it had been like that for five years and that none of the people who lived there and saw it were upset.

Imagine the grief if you did something like that in Maryland. You would never get out of jail,except to be sued by someone. :D
We are living high on the hog in this boat compared to the way the settlers lived. But as the "standard of living" goes up, so does the expectation of how people should live and are expected to live.

All of a sudden, what was good for Grandpa when he was a child is no longer good enough for your children. Give them a laptop and an Ipod or they'll call CPS on you.
 

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Okay, here's soem more info:
Parents charged after children found in dirty, unheated sailboat - baltimoresun.com

According to court records, officials found the adults, two children and two dogs living in a 10-foot by 9-foot area with two small makeshift mattresses. There was no running water, heat or electricity in the boat, and family members were urinating into plastic bottles, said Candus Thomson, a Natural Resources Police spokeswoman.
The boys, believed to be 13 and 14 years old, said they had not been to school since last year, Thomson said. One boy had no socks and shoes several sizes too large.
The children and the dogs went with Anne Arundel County's Child Protective Services and eventually were sent to live with a relative in Florida. A 22-year-old man, believed to be the son of at least one of the Kellys, was not charged and is believed to be headed to Florida also, Thomson said.
The Kellys first came to the attention of authorities on Jan. 28, when they called the Coast Guard for help from their sailboat that was iced in near Poplar Island in the Chesapeake Bay, Thomson said. The Coast Guard noted conditions on the boat when they rescued the family and took them to shore to meet a relative.
Then on Feb. 9, Natural Resources Police got a call from someone concerned about a family living aboard a sailboat in Cypress Creek, Thomson said. Police visited to the sailboat, but they declined assistance.
Natural Resources Police returned to the boat on Feb. 12 to warn the family of an impending snowstorm, Thomson said. Police learned that the Kellys were the same family rescued by the Coast Guard weeks earlier, and made a plan to return to the boat two days later with the Coast Guard and Child Protective Services.


Look at the timeline.
Look at the conditions.
Anybody still feel that a) CPS swooped in unnecessarily wiht no warning and b) the parents were actually doing their damn job as parents?

Holy crap, they had almost two weeks from first contact to clean up their act, solve the problem, get the kids fed warm and happy...
and they didn't do it.

Don't even try to defend their "right to parent." You don't have to be rich be responsible. You just have to care about your kids more than yourself.
They apparently didn't.
 

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Just before the peanut gallery slags me off for saying un-American things, i can tell you its just as stupid in many other countries.
I had to laugh about the "no running water", "no heating" stuff. How the Aboriginals survived I'm stuffed if I know! How my grandparents survived is equally miraculous! Even my dad would come home and turn off all the heaters and tell us kids to put warmer clothes on and tell mum to go keep warm in the kitchen.
When I was a real little kid we had a bath once per week wether we needed it or not, and I dont think my friends had more. If it was good enough for us in the 1960's its good enough for the new generation.

By todays weirdo standards I would be in some foster home and my parents jailed.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Just before the peanut gallery slags me off for saying un-American things, i can tell you its just as stupid in many other countries.
I had to laugh about the "no running water", "no heating" stuff. How the Aboriginals survived I'm stuffed if I know! How my grandparents survived is equally miraculous! Even my dad would come home and turn off all the heaters and tell us kids to put warmer clothes on and tell mum to go keep warm in the kitchen.
When I was a real little kid we had a bath once per week wether we needed it or not, and I dont think my friends had more. If it was good enough for us in the 1960's its good enough for the new generation.

By todays weirdo standards I would be in some foster home and my parents jailed.
LOL, I used to have to take a bath every Saturday night so I would be clean for church. But, as a child, I rarely remember taking baths more frequently than that.

It wasn't until high school that I started showering everyday.
 
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