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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
On the C34, the Mk 1.5 designation was where they merely notched the original transom. The “sugar scoop” happened later in the C34 production run.
I'm not really sure either. I don't think it's an official designation. More of a nickname is my impression.

1) The owner did the mod to the galley table. This was from a Mainsheet article some years ago. The original table was designed to compress the table pedestal to convert it into a double berth. This “cocktail table” mod was to make easier access around the table. Ask if the owner has the original table top and cushion insert. 2) the 65-amp alternator is an upgrade and it’s supporting arm is a recommended upgrade. I would ask them if it is externally regulated. 3) the Max prop is an owner upgrade. 4) I see numerous changes to the lighting fixtures so I assume the owner has been upgrading to LED.
1) I noticed that also. I've already put the inquiry in about the filler cushions for both the cocktail table and the starboard settee.
2) "externally regulated". Sorry, don't know what that means.
3) I asked the broker if he knew of anything that might come up in the survey. He said that the prop was over-pitched to accomplish a performance issue for the current owner. Not quite sure what this means either.
4) If owner didn't switch to LED, I will be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Good luck!! I hope you offered what your research suggests the boat is worth, or a tad less to allow for the owner to satisfy themselves they got you up a bit. A generic discount to asking isn't the way to go. You could piss off an owner that thought they offered her at a sell now price, or get ripped off, if offered at a test the very top of the market price.
This was advice I've seen you offer to others before and that's what I did. I didn't just apply a generic 20% discount. That was just what my offer happened to work out as. I've been watching the market like it was my religion for the past year and I used the JD Power NADA guide on boat values. The owner has it listed just a bit above the "Average Retail" and I offered just a small bit below the "Low Retail". I'm expecting we'll end up somewhere in the middle. My goal is for us both to walk away feeling like we made a fair deal. I might not feel the same way if it were a car or other widget where it is my express duty to get the other guy over a barrel before I kick him in the gut. But like you said, I feel like I should be more respectful to a sailboat owner about his vessel.
 

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2) "externally regulated". Sorry, don't know what that means.
3) I asked the broker if he knew of anything that might come up in the survey. He said that the prop was over-pitched to accomplish a performance issue for the current owner. Not quite sure what this means either.
The alternator has a higher output than the stock unit. It's sending more electrons into the system. Best practice is to regulate the flow with a unit that is external to the alternator itself. Regulators run the gamut from simple devices that just make sure the batteries don't get overcharged to very complicated electronic switching systems. Here's an article on one particular regulator from Mainesail, one of the moderators here (who is having some health issues now I understand)


As for the prop overpitch issue, it sounds like the owner needed to run the engine at higher rpm's than he wanted to, so he replaced the prop with one with a higher pitch (blade angle). Very simply (which is the only way I understand it), if you increase the pitch of the prop, you generate more thrust at lower rpms. The goal is to size the prop so that the engine can push the boat efficiently without working too hard (exceeding specs). It's a function of a lot of things, including boat weight, prop size and pitch, engine horsepower, torque, shaft angle, etc.
 

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I recently sold my TR WK C36 after 15 years on the Chessy and think it was a perfect boat fo the bay. Chessy wind is always too light until it was too much. You can always reef a tall rig if there is too much wind, but you can't grow your mast and boom when it's light and I certainly never wished for the fin keel except during Gov Cup races. The boat you are looking at is the same configuration mine was and does not meet the definition of a MK 1.5 in my book. It is simply a MKI with a walk through transom. The 1.5 by my definition gave up the large forward facing Nav station for the smaller outward facing nav with a door to the aft cabin. I think the feathering prop goes a good ways towards making up for the standard rig and there are many nice upgrades on the boat. The lack of AC would be a concern for me. It has been a lifesaver on several longer trips when it was so hot we opted to spend every night in a marina. The salon table also would be a big negative to me unless they also have the original, which I would put back in the boat. Without it, you loose what is, depending on circumstances, the best berth on the boat. We often slept there with just the two of us on board and always used it vs the aft berth when we had guests.

Good luck.
 

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The galley table berth is super comfortable so it would be great to get that cushion and table top. I think your alternator is externally regulated because it is a 65 Amp and not the “standard” 45 Amp “Motorola” that came with that engine. Car type alternators have a series of diodes that step down the charge rate as they heat up. This results in going to “float” sooner and super long charging times. External regulators have “brains” that sense the charge going into the batteries allowing them to charge at the higher bulk rate longer. Prop pitch is a PITA. I need to look mine up to tell you what I have. Pitch it one way and you get better fuel economy but slower boat speed (at least in the C34). The other way you get a higher top end. Have the surveyor tell you the pitch of the current prop and what he recommends. The chart table light looked like a replacement to the original black plastic one. I assumed that the owner “modernized”.

I think the build history goes as follows. First, both boats had the standard, classic sterns. Gerry Douglas then put a “notch” in the C34 transom along with some “tweaks” to the deck mold. Later he did a much more extensive change to deck mold, “sugar scooping” it. Below the waterline the mold is the same. Above the waterline is a much bigger flair allowing for the “scoop” as well as opening up the cockpit. He also did some major tweaks to the interior molds. The result was the Mark II. People with the original notched transoms started to nickname themselves as “Mk1.5”. Does the stern of your boat look like mine? Your interior photograph shows an accordion door to the aft stateroom whereas mine has a solid door.
 

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This couldn't be the same one. It has signs of being used but not "rode hard and put away wet". Also, the broker has sold the boat to the last 3 owners. It's lived on Lake Michigan most of its life and has been in Oriental NC for the past 2 years. The broker basically insisted that we get a survey or he might not deal with us. Husband and wife team that displayed absolutely no pressure. Great people.

Standard rig... I've been informed by an acquaintance that has owned Catalinas and several others that the tall rig with a shoal draft keel might make me unhappy in the long run.

Buyers market?!! I've been under the working impression that the buying frenzy over the past year has solidly put the seller in the drivers seat. Am I wrong? We offered 20% below asking price. Owner has 24 hours to respond.
How did the negotiating come out?
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
What did the broker say that wasn't true? Not terribly uncommon, I'm afraid.
Okay, let me see if I can give this a shot and have it make sense.

Only in the hopes that it might give other new shoppers like me a heads up.

So a timeline of events went like this:

I gave up trying to get the help of my own broker after being told by several in no uncertain terms, “I’m too busy selling $500K boats to help you only spend $70K. It’s not worth my time. Maybe you should check Craigslist.” So I figured okay then, I guess I’ll just shop on my own and be happy that a hard working listing broker won’t have to split a commission.

We found the Catalina and really liked it. I called and asked a few specific questions to be sure it was worth going to look at. Then I did some research on the brokerage with BBB and State corporation commission and background check on the listing broker. This is where I learned that they are not affiliated with any of the recognized professional broker associations. Nothing else came up so I figured I’d pay close attention to the negotiations and move forward anyway. We made a date and drove 4 hours. The broker ended up being delayed with a sea trial so his wife let us aboard. She was very pleasant and I felt comfortable with her right away. I did my amateur survey and balanced my positive and negative observations within her earshot. We ended our visit by telling her that we intended to make an offer and asked for First Right of Refusal for 48 hours so we could “think it over”. She happily agreed so I gave her a copy of the blank YBAA Offer to Purchase that we would be using. She gave me a copy of the one page slightly out of focus sales contract that they use.

The next morning (Friday) the owner called and seemed put-out when he told me that he doesn’t allow modifications to his contract but assured me that there is a blank line where I could write in his repeated suggestion of “subject to a satisfactory survey”. It became clear that he expected that would be all I would write in. Nothing else. Like that’s ALL he wanted me to write in. As if I would have no other concerns. So I compared the two contracts closer and realized I could drive a Mack truck through the holes in his contract. It really had me over a barrel. In comparing the two, I could now see that it gave only the seller specific advantages while holding only the buyer to specific obligations. I gave it some thought and decided “hell with it, this is my offer and I’m going to make it the way I see fit.” So on principle only I made my offer but I wrote in “See addendum” on the blank line that I was supposed to only write in “subject to satisfactory survey”. I copied and pasted from the YBAA document the several vital stipulations that protected my interests along with a Time Is of the Essence clause and an inventory sheet of everything that was advertised in the listing and the things that were verbally offered with the sale but not put in writing and sent it over with our offer. That was on Friday afternoon at 3 and I gave the seller until Monday at 5 to accept our offer. Over 72 hrs. Plenty fair.

My family agreed with my offer but I warned them that there was no possibility of our offer being accepted because the broker was adamant that he would only work with his own unadulterated contract. So we put it out of our minds and moved on. We figured it was a nice day anyway for a drive down the coast, had a nice lunch at a Carolina style road-side diner and my boys enjoyed the novelty of being pulled out of school to go boat shopping. We went on with our weekend knowing we were going to keep on shopping. I was still on track. I had planned on waiting until this time of year to begin shopping in earnest so I had all Winter and wouldn’t feel pressure because Spring is coming and “I better hurry up and find something so we can go sailing!”. Time is on my side.

Needless to say I was very surprised to get a call from the broker Monday morning telling me that the seller made a counter offer and I had 24 hours to accept. I told him then, unofficially, that the negotiations ended up right where all good deals end up; with a “meet in the middle” price plus a token “let me feel like I won” fee. He instructed me to strike through our offer price and write in the counter offer and initial it. I asked “do you need just the first page or do I need to send all 4 pages including the inventory back to you?”. I got the stammering evasive non-answer that I have become used to. I’ve been married 23 yrs. and have 2 teenage boys in the house after all. I also have a Germain Engineered quality detector for skullduggery. He answered by only referencing the inventory sheet. It became clear to me that he intended to ignore everything else. As if I never included it. He would have been able to do that because each page was signed. That sneak!

My grandmother owned a fine furniture auction house, my grandfather a furniture restoration and upholstery shop, my uncle a pawn shop. That’s where I was brought up. I’ve witnessed my grandmother bring car salesmen and grizzled estate sale trolls almost to tears once they realized an old lady just got the better of them because they underestimated her. We’re Scotch-Irish and know our way around hard-nosed negotiations and don’t think twice about walking away with cold emotions from a sour deal.

So with vitriol, I did what he asked except this time on top of each page I wrote in “PG 1 of 4, PG 2 of 4, PG 3 of 4 and PG 4 of 4”. I blocked his move. When he called back he was HOT!!! I got him where I want him, feeling like he’s got a knife in his back. “I thought I told you no modifications!!!” he screamed. In my calmest voice I politely asked why this didn’t seem to bother him when he called to make the counter offer. I knew my friendly demeanor would only make him madder and it worked. His voice getting more shrill he said “I’ve been using this contract for 3 years and none of that other stuff you put in has ever come up or been a problem.” I told him “I don’t want to be the test case and oh, by the way, I thought you told me you were in business for 13 yrs.” That’s the thing with lies; you have to remember what lie you told to who. He admitted the company had been in business for 13 years but he’s only bought it 3 years ago. So I’m dealing with a shady amateur broker wanting me to grab my ankles.

So that’s it.

The sad thing is, the owner of the boat had a buyer on the hook at a fair price for a boat that he MUST sell and it’s been on the market for almost a year and is still on the market. Being the time of year, it’ll probably stay on the market.

Naysayers have at it but I stand by my actions. And if faced with the same circumstances I would do exactly the same thing again. Though going forward I’ll only deal with a listing broker that is CPYD/YBAA affiliated and I have a few brokers of my own that are affiliated with CPYD and/or YBAA looking for what I want and the first one to bring it to me gets the sale. And if I find it first I’ll give it to the broker that’s put in the most effort.
 

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Do you mean...the brokers intention was to have you 're-sign' the amended offer page only, thus effectively striking the additional clauses you had added in your original offer?

I guess this mplies that there were things advertised or implied as included with the sale that were not spelled out in the sellers contract.

Thanks for sharing your experience for others to be aware of.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
Do you mean...the brokers intention was to have you 're-sign' the amended offer page only, thus effectively striking the additional clauses you had added in your original offer?

I guess this mplies that there were things advertised or implied as included with the sale that were not spelled out in the sellers contract.

Thanks for sharing your experience for others to be aware of.
Well... yes and no. He was hoping to get me to resign the amended offer page only and was willing to accept my inventory page. Even though there was no origional mention of any inventory items in his sales contract, I don't believe there was any intended deception about that. But he did try to outright ignore any mention of my additional terms without skunking the deal. He wanted to ignore my terms rather than reject them. Letting me believe that my terms were accepted. I determined that if push came to shove, he would have denied ever receiving those pages and would have gotten away with it too.
It was my terms that he was attempting to exclude without my knowledge.
 

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If you liked the boat, it's too bad the deal went down on paperwork. I had an OEM Service Manager (not the sales guy) tell me of all the deals he saw die, because of little things that he swore the parties wouldn't remember years later. Sometimes, just personalities.

The basics of the YBAA contract are that the Seller is fully obligated to sell the boat to you for the agreed upon price, no more, no less, without any encumbrances. The Buyer is not obligated to purchase, until after the Acceptance Date, which is typically a few weeks later. In the middle, the Buyer gets to do whatever was agreed to and that is typically a non-destructive survey at the Buyer's cost.

It's not bad thinking to stay focused on deals with a YBAA contract. They do cover other things, such as who is responsible for the boat before closing, disposition of the deposit and others. Something to consider in your next deal is that the Buyer holds absolutely all the cards, up until Acceptance. There is a good argument for holding back a long list of things, until then. First, to see whether you really want to buy the boat. You might also be in a better negotiating posture, because at that point you're telling the Seller you've surveyed and will be fully obligated under this new list of terms. Typically, the Buyer would also use the time between Contract and Acceptance to try to clear that list, rather than put things like insurance on it and make their offer look more tenuous. If, for example, the Buyer learned they could not obtain insurance, they could just reject the boat before Acceptance, even before Survey, if they chose to. At contract signing, all sorts of contingencies might only make a Seller feel the odds are against them.

One more negotiating tip is that the Buyer is never obligated to sign, so there is no reason to draw hard lines in the sand. You may even have a change of heart. I advise to always state what you would agree to, not what you won't agree to. If the Buyer won't agree, keep it cordial and let them know you're available, if they have a change of heart.

Good luck finding the next one.
 
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Discussion Starter · #34 · (Edited)
What were your terms that he was trying to ignore?
Stuff lifted word for word directly from the YBAA contract. Keep in mind that much of what I'm posting here WAS already addressed but only to specifically to protect the seller.
Please also keep in mind that this isn't my first go-round. I've done well for my family in buying/selling land and real estate and have sat at many closing tables and even though I'm not an attorney, I'm well versed in contractual negotiations and it's been a very long time since I've been pulled over a barrel.

TERMINATION OF AGREEMENT: If the BUYER gives notice of his intention to reject the YACHT under the terms of this Agreement, such notice shall constitute termination of the BUYER’s obligation to purchase and the SELLER's obligation to sell, and the BUYER and the SELLER both authorize the SELLING BROKER to return the deposit to the BUYER, after deducting any fees and charges incurred against the YACHT by the BUYER, or by the BROKERS on behalf of the BUYER, including the cost of the survey and related expenses.

CLOSING: The “closing” on this sale shall take place by five o’clock p.m. local time on or before_____ at the office of at ___. The closing of the sale shall be deemed completed when:
A. All documents necessary to transfer good and absolute title to the YACHT have been received by the BUYER, or by the SELLING BROKER on behalf of the BUYER; and
B. The balance of the SELLING PRICE is paid in collected funds to the SELLER, or to the SELLING BROKER for transmittal to the SELLER.

TIME OF ESSENCE: The BUYER and SELLER expressly recognize and agree that time shall be of the essence with respect to any and all times, dates, and deadlines set forth in this agreement, including but not limited to those set forth in Paragraphs #3, #5 and #11 herein.

SELLER’S REPRESENTATIONS: The SELLER warrants and/or agrees as follows:
A.That the SELLER has full power and legal authority to execute and perform this Agreement, that the SELLER has good and marketable title to the YACHT, and that, if necessary, the SELLER will obtain permission, prior to closing, from any authority to sell the YACHT,

B. That the YACHT will be sold free and clear of any mortgages, liens, bills, encumbrances, or claims whatsoever. If any such obligations remain outstanding at the closing, the SELLER authorizes the SELLING BROKER to deduct the funds necessary to satisfy such obligations from the proceeds of the sale.

C. To deliver the YACHT and its inventory as accepted in inventory addendum, on or before ____.

D. To pay any and all duties, taxes, fees, or other charges assessed against the YACHT by any governmental authority prior to the closing, to hold harmless and indemnify the BUYER and BROKERS against any claims or actions for such fees, and to provide validation of such payments at the closing, upon written request by the BUYER.

E. To hold harmless and defend the BUYER and BROKERS against any and all claims incurred prior to closing that may impair or adversely affect the BUYER’s receipt, use, and possession of the YACHT and SELLER’s possession of good and absolute title to YACHT, and to assume all costs incident to defending the BUYER and BROKERS against such claims, including their reasonable attorney’s fees.

INTERIM RESPONSIBILITIES: The SELLER shall bear all risk of loss or damage to the YACHT, or to any person or property on said YACHT, until closing. Any damages to the YACHT subsequent to acceptance as set forth in Paragraph #3, and prior to completion of closing, shall be repaired by the SELLER at his expense, subject to approval of the BUYER who has the right to request a reasonable price adjustment or to cancel the sale if substantial damages cannot be repaired to his satisfaction. The SELLER agrees not to use the YACHT after completion of survey(s) undertaken on behalf of the BUYER except to move the YACHT to a suitable storage location and to conduct any sea trials requested by the BUYER.

11. DEFAULT BY SELLER: The SELLER’s failure to deliver the YACHT to the BUYER or otherwise to perform the terms of the Agreement, due to any reason (including loss of or substantial damage to the YACHT caused by the SELLER’s negligence which prevents completion of the sale), shall obligate the SELLER to pay all costs and charges incurred in connection with any survey undertaken on behalf of the BUYER. The SELLER’s obligation is without prejudice to any other rights the BUYER might also have as a result of the SELLER’s default.

MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS: This Agreement shall:
A. Be construed and interpreted in accordance with, and the arbitral authority shall apply, the substantive and procedural law of the State of the SELLING BROKER’s principal office.

B. Constitute the entire Agreement between the BUYER and SELLER, and supersedes all prior discussions, agreements and understandings of any nature between them, and may not be changed or added to except by agreement in writing and signed by all parties to be bound.

C. Be binding upon and shall inure to the benefit of and be enforceable by the successors in interest of the BUYER and SELLER, including but not limited to heirs, executors, administrators or assigns.

D. Survive the closing of the transaction and shall not be merged in or otherwise be affected by the execution, tender, delivery, or acceptance of the Bill of Sale or any other documents related to this transaction executed or delivered at or subsequent to the closing.

I often use a Severability Clause in my contracts but didn't see one in the YBAA contract and didn't think it was really necessary here anyway.
 

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Stuff lifted word for word directly from the YBAA contract....
I'm a big fan of the YBAA contract concepts and have used those to format contracts for several personal DIY boat sales. But just to note, that document text is copyrighted, so any use of it in its original form could be problematic. A comment like "closely followed the logic..." I assume avoids implying mis-use..

You didn't include the YBAA section defining "Acceptance of the Yacht", so I assume the broker's mini contract had included an equivalent concept. As Minnewaska mentioned above, the Acceptance Date is the cornerstone concept creating the responsibilities and liabilities for the buyer and seller through the sale process, in a manner I have always felt is most fair to both parties.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I'm a big fan of the YBAA contract concepts and have used those to format contracts for several personal DIY boat sales. But just to note, that document text is copyrighted, so any use of it in its original form could be problematic. A comment like "closely followed the logic..." I assume avoids implying mis-use..

You didn't include the YBAA section defining "Acceptance of the Yacht", so I assume the broker's mini contract had included an equivalent concept. As Minnewaska mentioned above, the Acceptance Date is the cornerstone concept creating the responsibilities and liabilities for the buyer and seller through the sale process, in a manner I have always felt is most fair to both parties.
Point taken about the copyright. I justified myself because I'm not using it "In whole or in part for commercial purposes". I don't know that would absolutely cover me if YBAA wanted to take me to court over copyright infringement but copyright law is given as little respect as patent law is in this Country so I'm not too worried. In any case, I won't be dealing with another situation that isn't being handled by a certified broker on one end or the other.

Re: "Acceptance of the Yacht". That one obligated me so, yeah... it was there already.
 

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I'm well versed in contractual negotiations and it's been a very long time since I've been pulled over a barrel.
I'm certain no one here suggested otherwise. Are you saying the broker did? Trying not to let business get you personally defensive.

While I get the reference to real estate deals, boats are a very different thing and the deal are different. It is far more common to have a list of contingencies and smart legal language in a real estate deal than a boat deal. All boats are flawed in some way. Remarkably, even those directly from the factory. No one invests in boats, nor needs a boat. They resolve a personal want.

I've sold boats and airplanes, which are very similar. One of the early conversations I have with the buyer is to insure they realize they are making a deal for a used boat. We're not making it new at Acceptance. As Seller, I consider it my moral obligation to honestly represent what I know. Beyond what I know, it remains used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
I'm certain no one here suggested otherwise.
I wasn't directing anything to anybody here at all. SchockT asked an honest straight forward question so I was just stating my perspective on an issue that turned out for the best.
And I'm only comparing real estate and major boat purchases in the manner that both can be very expensive, fraught with important legal repercussions if not done carefully and incumbent on the buyer to beware. All homes are also flawed, even new ones. You should have seen the look on the face of the last real estate listing agent I dealt with when I put on my Tyvek suit, knee pads and headlamp and disappeared into the crawlspace. She thought I was there to admire how big the walk-in closets were. Now if I was attempting to write this sort of agreement for a 20 yr old car I would rightly be labeled a kook. But a big chunk of my families money is on the line (real money too, not OPM) along with my credibility amongst my family. And the expense of getting out from under a bad boat purchase has got to be huge. They're counting on me to make the right deal. And if I have to hurt some feeling along the way, so be it. I've made it clear that this broker was hiding his intentions and only a fool would suggest that was a deal worth perusing. (Not directed at you).
Please keep in mind that the Offer to Purchase agreement belongs to a nationally recognized professional marine broker association. If they see fit to use this contract in their transactions, the idea that it is out of place with my transaction doesn't hold water.
That's the last that I'll defend my position. Like I said, if I had it do do all over again, I'd go about it the same exact way. Other than not insisting on dealing with a professional broker of course. That lesson I had to learn the hard way.
 

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I have no problem with how you handled this. I am puzzled by a broker that killed a deal based on terms that are in the generic contract used by most brokers. I wonder how he explained this to the seller.
 
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