SailNet Community banner
21 - 40 of 63 Posts

·
██▓▓▒▒░&
Joined
·
13,645 Posts
pye-
In with your considerations, also consider that if you hsould drop your insurance and then later decide you want insurance again? You may find it much harder to get. Some companies will continue to reissue insurance on older boats--but not issue it to a "new" customer. Others will issue it to a former customer, but not to a new customer.

And then there's liability. It doesn't matter what your boat is worth, if you lose it, OK, you lose thirty grand. If you lose it and you have to pay for envorionmental cleanup and wreck removal, or the Hinckley it pulled off a mooring and smashed...you could lose way more than the value of the boat. And some of that liability would extend 20 years and survive bankruptcy as well, so even if you are "judgement proof" there's some risk beyond the price of your boat.

How the numbers and odds work out for oyu, depends on your own numbers. Just beware that once you drop it, on an older boat, you may not be able to get it back again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
740 Posts
I must have gotten lucky with my only two boat insuring experiences. Right after I bought my boat, I applied for insurance and they required a survey. The surveyor listed "recommended changes" and "mandatory changes." The mandatory changes were things like installing an automatic bilge pump (the existing pump was manual only,) putting the two batteries in covered containers, etc. The insurance company required only that I give them a plan for how I intended to fix the mandatory changes. Coverage was not contingent on having everything fixed, I just had to have a plan. Of course, I'm a reasonable man, and I would not expect them to cover a claim that was caused by one of those listed problems not being fixed yet.

Then, a year later, that company jacked up my premium 20%. So I shopped around and got a much lower rate (lower than the first year at the other company even.) The second company didn't even require a survey.

I don't think it's unreasonable for an insurance company to require a boat owner to fix problems that a surveyor found. I also strongly suspect, though I don't know for sure, that there is some sort of legal protection from a denied claim based on something totally unrelated to the cause of the claim, provided that the premium was paid up and the owner was completely honest in all information given during the application. I don't think an insurance company can just retroactively void a policy because of something that was not originally a condition of coverage. It's a different matter if there was an explicit statement that coverage was contingent upon certain things being done by the owner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
Self insurance is not a good option in this day when lawyers are just waiting for and excuse to sue someone. And then there is oil spill costs and wreck removal. If your boat should sink at the marina due to a storm you are libel for the thousands it could cost to clean up oil from your engine and then have the boat removed. If you have a guest and they get hurt you are libel. The worst case I knew of was a man who bought a boat. The broker assured him he had transfered the insurance with the title. The new owner was bringing the boat home and it sank due to no fault of his. His girl friend died before they were rescued. Her family sued. He found out that the salesman never did file the paper work and he was not insured. He lost everything he owned and after years of endless law suites took his own life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
What happens when your mast falls over onto the $250k boat next to you?

"Self insuring" for your own loss is one thing; self insuring for liability is quite another.


Sorry about that, with most marina's requiring liability insurance, I meant self insure in the sense of carrying only liability insurance and I took it for granted that you would understand that.

My bad.

Wonder how I can re-post the same question with the added information because I am sure I am going to get a lot of replys like this. I am not as dumb as you think I am. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
740 Posts
Sorry about that, with most marina's requiring liability insurance, I meant self insure in the sense of carrying only liability insurance and I took it for granted that you would understand that.
Hmmm, that almost sounds like sort of a clever, passive aggressive (learned that term from my wife) retort. Fortunately I don't worry too much about such things.

But now I do understand. Thanks for the clarification.

Edit: Hey wait. Did you add the "not as dumb as you think I am?" I don't remember seeing that the first time.:p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
A good surveyor will take into account the age and type of boat he is looking at. I used to survey every boat built for a major manufacture and I would right up at least a page of things. I would not write up any of those same items on a 30 yo boat. I had been building and repairing boats for 30 years when I started surveying. I was arrogant enough to think I could run circles around most surveyors. I have since learned there is a lot more to being a good surveyor than just looking at boats and pointing out defects. It is a skill that takes practice. Honestly most surveyors do not want to make the boat owners life hard we do care. But you better believe the insurance companies will not think twice about suing us if we screw up. When I look at a older boat I am looking more at safety issues. It sometimes happens a owner is blind to some real issues. It is all a careful balance and a good surveyor will do their best to make sure the owner is safe and the insurance company will not have a loss.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
Hmmm, that almost sounds like sort of a clever, passive aggressive (learned that term from my wife) retort. Fortunately I don't worry too much about such things.

But now I do understand. Thanks for the clarification.
:p
So, who's the PA, you are your wife? And it appears you do worry about it or you wouldn't have brought it up.

But, in any event, your welcome, hope I can get some meaningful information now that I left out important information. Maybe I should start a new post, what do you think?
 

·
██▓▓▒▒░&
Joined
·
13,645 Posts
scrathchee, you're right that an insurer can't retroactively change the terms of your policy.

But in reality? They know that 99% of all customers never read their policy. They actually pay typesetters and designers to make the policy as unreadable as possible, even when there are legal requirements about the print. There are ways to make things so damned hard to read, that you'll give up. And brokers and insurers have paid people to design their documents that way.

Then they also know that if they deny a certain number of claims, a substantial nbumber of people will accept that and not argue--even if the denial is wrong. Big article in the NYTimes about medical insurers doing that some time ago (5? 10? years) where the claims agent said they were specifically told to reject every nth claim, right or wrong, because so many wouldn't appeal the denial. Legal? No. Industry practice? Apparently.

And then there are insurers who will offer you "book" value, except, they'll also intentionally use an illegal and incorrect valuation method, even when state insurance regulations specify otherwise. "Gee, we're sorry" and they never get penalized, because the penalty would have to be shutting them down and then catch-22, there'd be no insurers left at all.

So...it is a zero-sum game, and the insurer is rarely your friend. Some are more reputable than others. A few sometimes are honest. But overall? Most of them are for-profit corporations, and they'll do whatever they think gives them the biggest profit in the shortest term.

Like Vegas, the house always wins.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
740 Posts
...Then they also know that if they deny a certain number of claims, a substantial number of people will accept that and not argue--even if the denial is wrong.
I think I've encountered that in other areas, not just insurance. I strongly suspect that in many areas of business, the default answer is often "no," in hopes that a certain percentage of people won't take it any further than that. And they probably know what the percentage is, and that probably figures into their financial planning.

[Totally off topic, but that reminds me of my dad telling me about having dinner with an executive from a phone company. My dad asked him what percentage of pre-paid phone cards were never used, thereby giving the phone company a huge profit margin on those cards, and the phone guy wouldn't even acknowledge that my dad had asked the question. Again, I strongly suspect that the phone company knows precisely what percentage of phone cards will never be used.]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
474 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Certainly part of my problem is that this is my first boat and I have not encountered all these nuances of the industry. Initially I was annoyed that I had to spend $400 for a survey, knowing full well that they would be jacking up my insurance rate anyway (because of Sandy I assumed). And they did not disappoint, my insurance bill went up 20% this year. But after the survey was done I was glad I had it done, because it helped me focus on what the important issues were that should be taken care of. Prior to that I was more likely to be concerned that I had the teak all stained nice. So I had full intention of taking care of the surveyor's recommendations anyway, but it caught me by suprise that they would require all the recommendations to be addressed, in the next 30 days. I guess I should be glad it is only every 5 years or at least that is the attitude the insurance company is trying to instill. It is fortunate that I can take care of most of the items myself, even if it means making up a warning label for a diesel heater that has no warning label.

thanks,
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,508 Posts
....(Seems the way the typical banking, insurance, medical businesses operate now days anyway, but that's another rant).....
Lumping them all together is like rallying a lynch mob. Not all banks, insurance companies and medical businesses are the same.

Specific to your question, not all insurance companies have the same claims approach. Some charge lower premiums, but will highly scrutinize every claim, in order to keep their prices low. Others will charge more and pay out more. Still again, some will only insure the lowest risks to keep their claims low. They are all different, its business. You need a good agent to help you know who is who. If you want the lowest cost, you will get what you pay for. That may be okay with you. Listening to little green lizards is the worst way to choose. So who is the real dope in the equation, when lizards actually work.

Here's a common example of a coverage exclusion. Say the insurance company charges you $100 to insure against the loss of your barn that would cost them $10k to rebuild. The policy is going to exclude anything that may be inside the barn of value you didn't tell them about. Store your '63 split window corvette in there and it is not covered by that policy. The Vette is worth more than the barn itself, so one shouldn't expect it to be covered for free. Often, the insureds find out later and blame it on the small print. One needs a good agent to explain all of this and the consumer needs to be sure they are actually buying the coverage they want or need. Same with boats. Most only look at the price of the policy and get what they deserve.

As for banks and medical businesses. My bank is a community bank. Good people, honest and personally help at the same local charities. They expect they will be paid back when people borrow money, because the money is actually from the depositors in the same community. They profit from taking the risk that some will lose their jobs, or get sick and can't. Way too many loans were made by large banks and mortgage brokers to borrowers that knew themselves they could never afford the house they bought and are the most likely to blame the bank.

My doctor actually spends 30 full minutes with me to review the results of my annual physical and blood tests. He charges me for the time and I gladly pay it.

Find what you want. Lump them together and you'll get what you deserve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
I hate beating a dead horse but;
Marine surveyors use many credentials, letters and terms such as "accredited", "certified", "qualifed", "AMS", "CMS", etc. There are many ways to train to become a marine surveyor including taking correspondence courses, apprenticing, or simply opening a business.
However, marine surveyors pursue their profession independently of required organizations, and there is currently no national or international licensing requirement for marine surveyors.
All association terms and initials represent training and certification are by private organizations.
Enough said.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,205 Posts
I hate beating a dead horse but;
Marine surveyors use many credentials, letters and terms such as "accredited", "certified", "qualifed", "AMS", "CMS", etc. There are many ways to train to become a marine surveyor including taking correspondence courses, apprenticing, or simply opening a business.
However, marine surveyors pursue their profession independently of required organizations, and there is currently no national or international licensing requirement for marine surveyors.
All association terms and initials represent training and certification are by private organizations.
Enough said.
Maybe you figure if you wait long enough you can again post your incorrect assertion that all marine surveyors are not accredited. Please refer to Maine Sails post #17.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
Dude, I have made myself very clear about how I feel toward marine surveyors, banks and insurance companies many times on this website. If you have something else to contribute to this thread then go ahead, otherwise......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
Maybe you figure if you wait long enough you can again post your incorrect assertion that all marine surveyors are not accredited. Please refer to Maine Sails post #17.
Dog Ship is correct. Anyone can call themselves a surveyor and there is no law or rule they have to belong to any particular organization. That said most (but not all) insurance companies will only accept reports from a SAMS or NAMS accredited surveyor. SAMS and NAMS have some strict requirements and require all members to keep continuing education in an effort to keep members up to date. It is an expensive process to maintain membership in good standing. This does not mean all members are good surveyors but it helps weed out the wannabes from the professionals. Being a member means you have trained in the standards and you follow basic guidelines for report formats. There is more involved than just finding problems and this why reports get turned down from non members. A survey needs to be an appraiser, an inspector, an expert on standards, an expert on insurance and have some knowledge of maritime law as well as knowing how boats are built and how to look for problem signs. He needs to understand engines, electrical systems and structure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
Lumping them all together is like rallying a lynch mob. Not all banks, insurance companies and medical businesses are the same.

Specific to your question, not all insurance companies have the same claims approach. Some charge lower premiums, but will highly scrutinize every claim, in order to keep their prices low. Others will charge more and pay out more. Still again, some will only insure the lowest risks to keep their claims low. They are all different, its business. You need a good agent to help you know who is who. If you want the lowest cost, you will get what you pay for. That may be okay with you. Listening to little green lizards is the worst way to choose. So who is the real dope in the equation, when lizards actually work.

Here's a common example of a coverage exclusion. Say the insurance company charges you $100 to insure against the loss of your barn that would cost them $10k to rebuild. The policy is going to exclude anything that may be inside the barn of value you didn't tell them about. Store your '63 split window corvette in there and it is not covered by that policy. The Vette is worth more than the barn itself, so one shouldn't expect it to be covered for free. Often, the insureds find out later and blame it on the small print. One needs a good agent to explain all of this and the consumer needs to be sure they are actually buying the coverage they want or need. Same with boats. Most only look at the price of the policy and get what they deserve.

As for banks and medical businesses. My bank is a community bank. Good people, honest and personally help at the same local charities. They expect they will be paid back when people borrow money, because the money is actually from the depositors in the same community. They profit from taking the risk that some will lose their jobs, or get sick and can't. Way too many loans were made by large banks and mortgage brokers to borrowers that knew themselves they could never afford the house they bought and are the most likely to blame the bank.

My doctor actually spends 30 full minutes with me to review the results of my annual physical and blood tests. He charges me for the time and I gladly pay it.

Find what you want. Lump them together and you'll get what you deserve.
You might want to consider the size of the company you are dealing with. From what I can tell large corporations are or as bad or worse than large government. Haven't you noticed that we have moved from too big to fail, to too big to prosecute. I think the way large business treats the general public does require a lynch mob at this point. If you are lucky enough to find a small local business to do your business, more power to you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
In BC we have government controlled auto insurance. The Insurance Corporation of BC is a branch of or Provincial Government. It is heavily regulated for obvious reasons.
If ICBC asks for a safety inspection on a vehical which is basicaly a survey on the vehical, you will be required to take that vehical to a government approved safety inspection facility where a licenced mechanic will go over a pile of peramiters and deem the vechile fit or not fit for the road. In other words, you get insurance or you are denied insurance until it is fit for the road.
The similarities with boats and cars ends there, but my point is that you are not allowed to take your car to "the guy down the street" for an inspection no matter how much "experience " he has.
Anyone can repair the vehical but you will still need that government approved, licenced mechanics signature on the bottom of the supplied ICBC safety inspection form.
With the money some people have invested into their boats I am surprized that the marine industry has not put something similar in place. Why does it have to be a crap shoot?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,205 Posts
Dude, I have made myself very clear about how I feel toward marine surveyors, banks and insurance companies many times on this website. If you have something else to contribute to this thread then go ahead, otherwise......
You can hold onto any opinion you want but when those ideas are in error you must be called on it. You contribute nothing when you spread falsehoods. Saying surveyors have no accreditation is false. Whether you like surveyors or not is of little value. So unless you have something truthful and of value to contribute then go ahead, otherwise...
 

·
██▓▓▒▒░&
Joined
·
13,645 Posts
"Why does it have to be a crap shoot? "
Why are doctors required to be tested and licensed and reviewed and attend professional education after four years of special schooling and further apprenticeship [sic] and still, they mistreat and kill a quarter million people a year in the US alone? From all sorts of totally avoidable errors.
And you think the insurance industry is going to find, train, and certify surveyors to a better standard?

I think it is a crapshoot because anything else would be incredibly expensive and not at all effective.

Minne-
You may have a great doctor, but have you ever tried to interview around to FIND one if you need one? You can ask friends, if they've had the same needs or you're looking for a GP. But to "try one on" or even interview their offices? In many places now, older independent MD's are either retiring or moving onto hospital staff, because they don't want to spend the money to computerize their office. (Which means they haven't been using computers for 20 years, which means they are lousy practice managers, but that's something else again.) And once they join a staff someplace, they're often rated on metrics and spending 1/2 hour with a patient needs to be justified--or they're fired.
Time are changing and sadly "Dewey, Screwem & Howe" is no longer a comedy.

Insurers? You can dig up ratings, you can ask around, but for the average customer listening to the little green lizard has some appeal. After all, you've never heard a little lizard lie, have you?

Didn't think so, neither have I. "Idiocracy". (sigh)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
You name me one university, college or government recognized trade school that offers a diploma or a degree or a government recognized trade certificate that states you are a marine surveyor and I will eat every word I have typed.
 
21 - 40 of 63 Posts
Top