[captain jack]

ok. this is about my 'new' cal27. the marina knows the boat so they aren't asking me to get a survey. however, liability insurance is required. they are being really good about working with me but i don't want to push them too far.

the problem, so far, has been the age of the boat. all of the insurance companies, so far, have required a survey. i was going to go with state farm because the price is great and, until today, they didn't say anything about a survey. however, when i went to get the policy started, it came up.

so, here's my problem. i never have carried insurance on a boat, before. i'd only have it now, because i have to. i haven't started calling around but i was told it would probably cost be between $10 and $20, a foot, to get it surveyed. that exceeds the cost of the boat just to have some guy look at it. that's not even a guarantee he wouldn't miss something. i need to buy a motor, yet. and running rigging. and bottom paint ( etc ). and spending $300 to have a guy tell me what i already know....

if i was going to get it surveyed, i'd want to wait til i got done what i know needs done, so he could tell me if i missed anything. but i don't think i will be able to wait, til then, for insurance.

anyhow, so i am looking to see if anyone knows an insurer that isn't going to ask for a survey or a surveyor that isn't going to ask for my right testicle, in payment.

 

[manatee]

Hmmmm...
don't want a survey until you fix it up --
can't keep it where you can fix it without insurance --
can't get insurance without a survey --

Are you familiar with the phrase "Catch-22"?

Maybe you can get a policy with a whacking great deductible.

 

[aeventyr60]

Looks like you may lose the left nut as well.

 

[billyruffn]

Caveat: this is coming from a guy who knows what he doesn't know and I don't know a lot about this topic, but I'll venture a guess and offer a possible direction for further inquiry on your part.

The survey is usually required so the underwriter can be sure the boat is worth what it's being insured for, and is in a condition that it's not going to sink once the lines are let go. Apart from the boat sinking at the dock and spilling fuel into the surrounding waters or the mast falling down and crushing someone walking down the dock, I'm curious as to why the condition of the vessel has much to do with liability for damage done in a marina. The reason the marina wants you insured may be that lawyers working for people who have sustained losses look for people they can blame/sue who have deep pockets. If you don't have insurance, the marina is next in line to be sued. They don't like that, and neither would their insurance company, which may be why there's a requirement that you have personal liability cover on the boat, i.e. the marina's insurer requires them to require you to have liability insurance so they're not the first in line when a law suit is filed.

Personal liability involved in taking people out in the boat is another matter -- the condition of the vessel has a direct impact on this. The marina isn't involved in this type of liability, but it may be that insurance companies can't separate the two types of liability -- i.e. that in the marina setting, and that once underway.

Talk to your home owner's / renter's insurance broker/company. You may find out that you're covered as far as personal liability is concerned up to the limits on your homeowner's / renter's insurance.

Others here, more knowledgeable than I, will certainly offer better insight and advice.

 

[Faster]

.....
Talk to your home owner's / renter's insurance broker/company. You may find out that you're covered as far as personal liability is concerned up to the limits on your homeowner's / renter's insurance.

Others here, more knowledgeable than I, will certainly offer better insight and advice.

I think this is a great place to start.. You're not insuring for any kind of replacement value, the marina wants the coverage in case you do damage to the docks or neighbours..

Oh... and same caveat!

 

[Markwesti]

27x10=$270. that exceeds the cost of the boat ? OUCH ! My broker is State Farm I have had good luck with them . Perhaps you could have another sit down with them and emphasize the situation that you only need liability . But really a survey is not the end of the world . Case in point , a guy bought a sail boat that was next to me . The PO rarely came to the boat , it had sat there for about 7 yrs. The PO was a good guy and wasn't trying to hide anything . The new Cpt. didn't get a survey. I was helping him with some stuff , and I said open up that seacock . It got loose! It was found that there was a steel reducer! (finest HomeDepot) . Another case in point, years ago a boat caught fire a couple of slips down from me it started at the shore power plug on the boat . Boat was a total ,me I was ok thank you. So to wrap things up here a survey might of caught these things .

 

[Alex W]

i was going to go with state farm because the price is great and, until today, they didn't say anything about a survey. however, when i went to get the policy started, it came up.

What is the stated value of the boat?

My State Farm rep told me that they require a survey on boats with a replacement value of over $20k. I insured a Catalina 25 with a stated replacement value of $8k with no survey. My Pearson is insured for more and I did need to get a survey.

Different agents and different regions may of course vary. I'm in Seattle.

 

[captain jack]

Hmmmm...
don't want a survey until you fix it up --
can't keep it where you can fix it without insurance --
can't get insurance without a survey --

Are you familiar with the phrase "Catch-22"?

Maybe you can get a policy with a whacking great deductible.

lol. yeah. you called it. that's what it is....not that i can afford a survey, now, at tose prices. i'm not sure the deductable will make a difference. i guess i could ask.

 

[captain jack]

Caveat: this is coming from a guy who knows what he doesn't know and I don't know a lot about this topic, but I'll venture a guess and offer a possible direction for further inquiry on your part.

The survey is usually required so the underwriter can be sure the boat is worth what it's being insured for, and is in a condition that it's not going to sink once the lines are let go. Apart from the boat sinking at the dock and spilling fuel into the surrounding waters or the mast falling down and crushing someone walking down the dock, I'm curious as to why the condition of the vessel has much to do with liability for damage done in a marina. The reason the marina wants you insured may be that lawyers working for people who have sustained losses look for people they can blame/sue who have deep pockets. If you don't have insurance, the marina is next in line to be sued. They don't like that, and neither would their insurance company, which may be why there's a requirement that you have personal liability cover on the boat, i.e. the marina's insurer requires them to require you to have liability insurance so they're not the first in line when a law suit is filed.

Personal liability involved in taking people out in the boat is another matter -- the condition of the vessel has a direct impact on this. The marina isn't involved in this type of liability, but it may be that insurance companies can't separate the two types of liability -- i.e. that in the marina setting, and that once underway.

Talk to your home owner's / renter's insurance broker/company. You may find out that you're covered as far as personal liability is concerned up to the limits on your homeowner's / renter's insurance.

Others here, more knowledgeable than I, will certainly offer better insight and advice.

i don't own a home. this boat is the biggest thing i own.

 

[captain jack]

27x10=$270. that exceeds the cost of the boat ? OUCH ! My broker is State Farm I have had good luck with them . Perhaps you could have another sit down with them and emphasize the situation that you only need liability . But really a survey is not the end of the world . Case in point , a guy bought a sail boat that was next to me . The PO rarely came to the boat , it had sat there for about 7 yrs. The PO was a good guy and wasn't trying to hide anything . The new Cpt. didn't get a survey. I was helping him with some stuff , and I said open up that seacock . It got loose! It was found that there was a steel reducer! (finest HomeDepot) . Another case in point, years ago a boat caught fire a couple of slips down from me it started at the shore power plug on the boat . Boat was a total ,me I was ok thank you. So to wrap things up here a survey might of caught these things .

i have nothing personal against a survey, although i'd rather get it after i repair the known issues. it's a financial thing. in other words, i can't swing the extra $300 right now.

 

[captain jack]

What is the stated value of the boat?

My State Farm rep told me that they require a survey on boats with a replacement value of over $20k. I insured a Catalina 25 with a stated replacement value of $8k with no survey. My Pearson is insured for more and I did need to get a survey.

Different agents and different regions may of course vary. I'm in Seattle.

well, that i don't know. i have seen them go for 3000 and i have seen them go for 6500. te reason they gave me was the age. the underwriter won't cover a boat that old without a survey.

 

[boatpoker]

Ask the insurance broker if he will give you "Port Risk" liability coverage until you get her fixed up and then get the survey.

I can't see anyone giving you coverage on a $300.00 boat for general liability. A $300 boat is a screaming red flag and the risk is just not worth it against what it costs to remove a potential sinker or fire risk (their point of view).

 

[captain jack]

Ask the insurance broker if he will give you "Port Risk" liability coverage until you get her fixed up and then get the survey.

I can't see anyone giving you coverage on a $300.00 boat for general liability. A $300 boat is a screaming red flag and the risk is just not worth it against what it costs to remove a potential sinker or fire risk (their point of view).

ok. sounds like you know something about insurance. is a 'port risk' liability policy a common thing?

the boat wasn't a wreck, just abandoned. she's not taking on water or anything. i explain how i got it at that price, when they ask what i paid for it. but i guess i see your point. it's the age that makes them want the survey.

 

[ozsailer]

Hi Captain Jack,
Here in Oz if the boat is over 15 years old most insurance companies now require a survey every 2 to 5 years and also when a person buys a boat. There a lot more people getting 3rd party insurance as they believe their boats are not worth insuring. One thing to consider is not so much what your boat is worth but what occurs if your boat is responsible for an event which damages one or several other boats, many today are very very expensive. Not having a go but what is going to cost more, Insuring the boat and get the survey and have no worries if something goes wrong or having a life long debt if it all turns bad. Only recently there was a large fire at a local marina, Four boats totally destroyed. Estimated value 3 to 4 million. Hope the guy who boat was the cause of the fire is insured. Here in Oz some insurance companies are now refusing to insure boats on moorings yet there is a huge lack of marina's to put a boat, catch 22


Greg and Sue

 

[TakeFive]

I genuinely hope you can avoid a survey. Ir sounds like some here have given you reason to believe that for an inexpensive boat and/or liability only coverage, you might be able to avoid it. That's good news.

But if it's unavoidable and you need to "bite the bullet" and get a survey, you should let go of this idea that survey cost has anything to do with what you paid for the boat. It can be argued that the older/cheaper a boat is, the more difficult it will be to survey, and hence the more it will cost...and the more it is needed. You should realize that by getting a boat for very little money, you're going to pay less in up-front cost, but also may pay more for other things later. Not everything is going to be reduced in proportion to your original purchase price. So be glad whenever you can trim costs, but realize that some things will not be avoidable.

Make sure any potential surveyors know that this is an insurance survey, and not a pre-purchase survey. The latter usually costs more.

I used State Farm (my auto and home carrier) for my boat for my first year. After that first year I realized a couple of severe deficiencies in their policy. A couple of the deficiencies limited their potential replacement payout (which is irrelevant for a liability-only policy). But they also did not cover liability for environmental damage, which can be a huge bill. I switched to BoatUS, which covers over $800,000 in environmental damage. You need to consider that, especially if you are doing a DIY repower with diesel. My annual premium for my 25' boat is about $150, with full coverage but $1000 deductible.

 

[newhaul]

I'm with foremost for liability they didn't want survey just good pictures from all 4 sides showing that the boat wasn't derelict. Foremost insurance group fredrick MD 866 592 3770 mine cost a c note a year for 300k liability. (Mines older than yours 68 islander)

 

[barefootnavigator]

Contact the guy you bought the boat from get his agent who previously insured the boat bam your done, go sailing Life is so easy

 

[Unkle Toad]

I was told today that possibly progressive does not require a survey for Liability. worth looking into.

 

[captain jack]

Hi Captain Jack,
Here in Oz if the boat is over 15 years old most insurance companies now require a survey every 2 to 5 years and also when a person buys a boat. There a lot more people getting 3rd party insurance as they believe their boats are not worth insuring. One thing to consider is not so much what your boat is worth but what occurs if your boat is responsible for an event which damages one or several other boats, many today are very very expensive. Not having a go but what is going to cost more, Insuring the boat and get the survey and have no worries if something goes wrong or having a life long debt if it all turns bad. Only recently there was a large fire at a local marina, Four boats totally destroyed. Estimated value 3 to 4 million. Hope the guy who boat was the cause of the fire is insured. Here in Oz some insurance companies are now refusing to insure boats on moorings yet there is a huge lack of marina's to put a boat, catch 22

Greg and Sue

there's no question about getting insurance, or not. i have to. it's a matter of how....due to the survey requirement. at least here i don't need to get it every few years. yikes!

 

[captain jack]

I genuinely hope you can avoid a survey. Ir sounds like some here have given you reason to believe that for an inexpensive boat and/or liability only coverage, you might be able to avoid it. That's good news.

But if it's unavoidable and you need to "bite the bullet" and get a survey, you should let go of this idea that survey cost has anything to do with what you paid for the boat. It can be argued that the older/cheaper a boat is, the more difficult it will be to survey, and hence the more it will cost...and the more it is needed. You should realize that by getting a boat for very little money, you're going to pay less in up-front cost, but also may pay more for other things later. Not everything is going to be reduced in proportion to your original purchase price. So be glad whenever you can trim costs, but realize that some things will not be avoidable.

Make sure any potential surveyors know that this is an insurance survey, and not a pre-purchase survey. The latter usually costs more.

thanks sir. that's good to know. this is all new to me. every piece of info i get is a nugget of gold. this fits right in with the future of sailing thread. it's not learning to sail that is hard. it's jumping through the hoops of boat ownership!

I used State Farm (my auto and home carrier) for my boat for my first year. After that first year I realized a couple of severe deficiencies in their policy. A couple of the deficiencies limited their potential replacement payout (which is irrelevant for a liability-only policy). But they also did not cover liability for environmental damage, which can be a huge bill. I switched to BoatUS, which covers over $800,000 in environmental damage. You need to consider that, especially if you are doing a DIY repower with diesel. My annual premium for my 25' boat is about $150, with full coverage but $1000 deductible.

boats US was my first quote. then i learned tey needed a survey. if i have to get a survey, then they are back in the running.