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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Sirius 32, Sirius 35

THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.

Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.

Classical boats and traditional boats.


Small cruisers (less than 35ft)


Seezunge 27ft: PG1-PT9

Hanse 325: PG19-PT185;

Presto 30 : 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

Tess Yachts: 37-366; 38-373;

Tess 28 Magnum: 37-369; 38-371;

Delphia 28: 38-373;

Vancouver 27/28 : 42-412; 72-717;




Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft




Catalina 355 : 31-306;

RM sailboats: PG5-PT41; 5-42

RM1050: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

RM 1060: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

RM 1200: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

RM 1350: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

Morris Yachts: PG7-PT61

Bavaria 36: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

Bavaria 40: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

Bavaria 40s: 69-685; 78-775;

Bavaria 45: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

Rustler Yachts: PG11-PT104;

Jeanneau 409: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

Jeanneau 439: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

Hanse Yachts: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

Hanse 400: 81-804;

Bluewater cruising yachts: 21-206

Beneteau Oceanis 37 : 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

XC 38: 36-356; 96-954;

Diva 38: 39-386;

Diva 35: 40-391;

Dufour 405: 62-614;

Defline 43: 63-622

Walkabout 43: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;




Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)



Performance 32ft test: 29-87;

Sun Fast 3200: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

Elan 210: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

Elan 310: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

Quest 33: PG7-PT62

Olea 32: 25-243; 25-245;

First 27.7: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

First 30: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

Comet 26: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

Pacer 30: 36-357;

Django 7.7: 40-399;

Vivace/Evosion 34: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

Finn Flyer 34: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

Salona 34: 46-457;

Heol 7.4: 63-621; 63-622;

Azuree 33: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

JPK 10.10: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;




Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)


Pogo 10.50: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

Pogo 12.50: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

Este 40: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

A35: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

A40RC: 92-914;

Hammerhead 35: 64-645

Opium 39: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

Aerodyne 35: PG7-PT62

Elan 350: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

Elan 380: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

Elan 410: 32-316; 79-784;

JPK 110: PG9-PT85; 10-91

Olea 44: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

Olea Yachts: 25-247;

Dufour 40e: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

Salona 37: 36-359; 41-406;

Salona 41: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

Salona 42: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

Cigale 16: PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

Cigale 14: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

Santa Cruz 43: PG17-PT169

Sydney Yachts: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

Sydney GTS 37: 43-423;

Sydney GTS 43: PG18-PT173;

Winner 12.20: PG20-193;

First 40: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

First 35: 36-356

Dehler 41: 30-296;

Dehler 44: 79-785;

Dehler 45: 36-356; 79-785;

Luffe 40.04: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

XP 38: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

XP 44: 33-325;

Pacer 430: 36-357;

Pacer 376: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

Faurby 424: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

Comfortina 39: 40-395;

J 133: 43-426; 63-620

J 111: 100-993;

Maxi 11: 99-982;

Arcona yachts: 46-456;

Arcona 410: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

Arcona 430: 48-472;

Arcona 460: 50-495

Finngulf yachts: 46-456;

Varianta 44: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

Imagine 53: 63-628;

Zou 40.2: 63-620

Ker 39: 68-676;

Finn-Flyer 42: 77-762;

Azuree 40: 85-842;

Loft 40: 85-848; 85-852;

Vivace 35: 90-895;





Sailing boats over 49ft




Zeydon 60 : PG 12-119;

JP 54: PG18-PT172;

Salona 60: 70-695;

Stadships: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

Pogo 50: 32-318; 32-319;

X-50: 54-537;

Murtic 52: 54-537;





Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats


Sirius 32: PG1-PT1

Sirius 35: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

Sirius 31: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

Regina 35: 48-478;

Regina 40: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Luffe 43DS: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

Noordkaper 40: PG14-pt139;

Noordkaper yachts: PG16-PT155

Nordship 36: 30-297; 49-482;

Nordship 38: 49-482; 49-490;

Paulo's pilot house I: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

Paulo's pilot house II: 69-682

Lyman & Morse 45: 38-379;

CR 38DS: 48-477; 48-478;

CR 40DS: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

Arcona 40DS: 50-494;


Racers



Figaro 2:pG4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

VOR 70: PG16-PT160; 17-187

Farr 400: 67-661

Soto 40: 96-952;



Lifting keel/centerboarder


Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Allures 45: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

Allures yachts: 25-248;

OVNI 425: 23-228;

OVNI 395 : 68-679; 69-690;

J 108: 67-661

Atlantic 43: 68-67

Boreal 44: 97-970; 98-974;






Multihulls till 34ft

Several Trimarans: 28-273;


Multihulls with 34ft and over

Dragonfly yachts: 26-257;

Dragonfly 35: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

Dragonfly 1200: 56-551;

Corsair 37: 28-276;

Farrier 39: 28-277;

Challenge 37: 28-278

Hammerhead 34: 29-385;

Hammerhead 54: 29-288; 30-292;

Trimax 10.80: 29-285;

Sig 45: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

Gunboat: 56-551

Fusion: 56-551;

Outremer: 56-551;

Tournier: 56-511;



Classical and Traditional boats

Jclass boats: 54-537;

Tofinou 12: 71-703;

Folck boat: 73-727;

Puffin Yachts: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

Bestwind 50: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

Bestevaer 53: PG12-PT116;

Bestevaer yachts: PG16-PT155

Cape George 36: 41-410; 42-412;

Marieholm 33 : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.





(actualized till PG100) and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don’t advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn’t know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let’s see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.


The first one it will be the “Sirius”. I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won’t believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Sirius 35

Sirius 35:

Some months ago I have been inside that one, in the Dusselodorf Boat show. I chose to present the videos from the 32 because the quality of the first pictures of the 35ft is bad and doesn’t make justice to the boat. I think they have finished that boat just in time for the show and had no time to make proper photos.

The 35 is a beautiful boat with a great interior.

preview image
preview image

And a strong boat (don’t try this on an Oceanis:D ).

preview image

I have liked the boat so much that I have even considered to change my plans of buying a 40/42 to have that one (and my wife would not mind at all and she is a pain in the ass in what regards the minim storage space for a decent cruising boat). Unfortunately the boat is considerable more expensive than a 42 mass production sailboat.

I will post some pictures with the items that have impressed me most, and add some comments:

1- The steering wheel is a knock-out. It is of considerable size to ensure the most comfortable position while sailing, or to be taken out of the way to give passage, it swings from one side to another, or remains in the central position. Take also a look at the very neat arrangement of the bow anchor and to the well designed bath platform and passage to the cockpit.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Bathing Platform | Bathing Platform

2- Look at the oilskin locker, right where it is supposed to be, on the boat’s entrance to the interior, with dedicated space for wet boots, lots of space for jackets and an interior light. I know of very few 50ft that offer such a good and convenient space dedicated to oilskins.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Oilskins Locker | Oilskins Locker
Sirius-Werft Plön | Your individual yacht | Your individual yacht

3 – Click on the last two pictures and see why my wife likes this one. These guys are perfectionists to the point of obsession. Look at all that storage space and in the way all space is used the best possible way to be useful.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Pantry | Pantry

4-Look at the main room. It is incredibly “open” and big for a 35ft. It is not very apparent on the photos, but this “room” has a nice view. Look at the size of the hull ports, or should I say “windows”? I believe they are the same that are used on the big Hanse (630). Look at the zenithal light that comes from the top (big hatch) and the small portlight for ventilation.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | Owner´s cabin

5 – Look at the front cabin that in many bigger boats would be a very good owner’s cabin. It has a small sofa, like the other and also a small hull portlight. Plenty of light from above and lots of storage space. Look at the quality of the wood work.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Front cabin | Front cabin

6-Look at the size and quality of the head. Look at the completely separated shower room (on the opposite side of the head). Plenty of space, plenty of light. If you are taking a shower, the head remains available to be used by another person.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Shower & toilet room | Shower & toilet room

7-The photos of the saloon are really bad and don’t give you any idea of the quality of the space, but you can see that besides the upper hatch you have two very good quality side waterproof openings of considerable size, for lateral ventilation and you may notice also that all “windows” are situated at the right height to give you a perfect all around view, while seated. These windows are made of safety-glass in double aluminum frames. The windows are approved for world-wide cruise for impact of breaking waves.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Saloon | Saloon

8-You have a big technical room, and it is not only big but with the right things in the right places; I mean you have a work bench and dedicated space to store all that stuff that you need to have, but never know where to store it.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technic Room | Technic Room

9-This boat has a standard draft of 1.9M (lots of options) and in that configuration a lead ballast of 2.6T, for a total weight of 7.4T. That means that this boat will have more ballast than an Oceanis 43 (2.5T).
This means that this boat, with a very good ballast/displacement ratio, will have a very good stability with special relevance to the reserve stability.

10-This boat, notwithstanding the huge amount of interior space is not a beamy boat, with a 3.45M as max beam and only 3.15 on the waterline. For example, an Oceanis 34 will have 3.65 as max. beam. This points to an easily driven hull that will go well against the wind with not much pounding.

11-The boat has a 22 m² self-tacking jib, main sail 29 m² (automatic single line reefing) that will not be much for a 7.4T boat, but will guarantee a boat that will be easily handed in bad weather. The drawings show a big geenaker well positioned way from the front sail. This can be a fixed sail mounted on a roller, it is an option and it has 90m2. It will work like a giant genoa and will give the punch needed to sail well with weak winds.

12-This boat can have optionally a 55hp engine. This will give the boat almost the capabilities of a motor-sailor. A motor sailor that is also a good sailing boat;) .

13-This boat comes with a good standard inventory, including teak decks and has a list of optional that includes bullet proof windows among a lot of other more useful items like full batten mainsail and a redesigned mast for cutter stay with a second roller furling system.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technical datas | Technical datas

14-There is something that I don’t like? Yes, I don’t like the anchor locker and the impossibility to have an easy access to the chain on the bottom. I will prefer an open well and the winch situated on the opposite position (back), but that is easy to change and these guys will tailor the boat to your needs. I believe that they have learned a lot with the modifications that their clients had done in their boats and I believe also that they have mostly good and experienced sailors as clients, because the final result is a very sophisticated and practical sailboat.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Anchor Locker | Anchor Locker

15-A final note about the hull design: I will bet that you are going to look at these sleek hull lines and are going to think: How the hell is it possible to put that huge interior on this sleek hull? You will not be the first one:D .

preview image
preview image
preview image

This is a Great sailing boat, a boat that will raise admiration among all true sailors. A boat that will permit to cruise comfortably and living aboard without the extra costs that a bigger boat will inevitably bring (costs of marinas, maintenance, antifouling and so on). This boat will be a lot more easy to sail and mainly, a boat a lot more easy to put in and out of a tight marina.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The Seezunge C is a beautiful catboat. Check out the bar!

Seezunge C | VA Yachtdesign
You will find also some very beautiful and fast classic cruisers. Marc-Olivier seems to be a very versatile boat architect.

But regarding the Catboat, yes it is beautiful, it has a very open and nice interior but where the hell is the head?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Are you familiar with the Schmidt Boatyard in Germany?.........i2f
You mean this Schmidt Boatyard:

YouTube - Made in Germany | Boatbuilder Michael Schmidt

Eight years ago I went to the Hamburg boat show to buy a Hanse (34ft). It turns out that the front cabin was too small for my size:D and I ended up with a Bavaria 36. The guys from Bavaria proposed me a far better deal.

The Hanse are good boats. I would rate them for instance over Beneteau and under Dehler in what regards boat quality (by the way, they have bought Dehler).

They have a very good boat forum, supported by the manufacturer. We know that all boats have issues, but they have the courage to bring it all to the open. This permits the manufacturer to have a better understanding of what is wrong and what they need to change. They have a good after sales service and generally clients are satisfied and proud of their boats.

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum

It's a medium size manufacturer that is increasing in size and becoming a big one. But their boats are not in the same league as Sirius boats, not in quality, not in price.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Sirius 31

Paulo, You're right I was looking at the 32. I was really taken with the boat. It's not much larger than my 30 but it's a completely different design approach. Jim
Jim, this is the 31ft, the one that is going to substitute the 32. I believe that the interiors will be very similar but the hull is much more modern (and faster) and the outside design is much more elegant. They are building the first one.

On the last "Voile" (French) Magazine there is a small insert about the boat.
They call it "Le roi du salon de pont"- The king of the deck salons. A small king, but nevertheless, a king:D

It will cost around 130 000 euros (without VAT)







Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Sirius 35

Last post about Sirius Yachts:

I will finish with some nice renderings of the 35. It is really a good looking boat. you have a lot of information about this one (and more pictures) at the post nº 10 of this thread.







The next boat in this thread, unless someone wants to post another one, will be quite the opposite to SIRIUS.

A small and very inexpensive daysailer and basic mini-cruiser. It is a very old and a very new boat:D

It was once a huge sucess in Europe...and it will be again. In two months they have sold more than 50. You buy it through the internet, it is a 18ft sailingboat and it costs 10 000 euros, about half the price of other similar sized boat.

Do you want to guess?

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Pogo 10.50

It seems that nobody is interested in a 10 000 euros 18ft basic cruiser made by one of the most reputable European boat builders, so I am going to change subject, I mean, boat.

I would like to talk about some interesting and fast marginal cruising boats that are being a success in Europe. Not big, because the market they are pointing to is not a big one, but big enough to have them built in a production line. Pogo, in one year have sold 40 of their new 10.5 and Wauquiez have discontinued the production of their 40ft cruiser-racer and are manufacturing one of these.

Normally around here, when you talk of a fast cruiser, you are talking of a cruiser-racer, boats with a relatively good (or even very good) interior, made for fast cruising and for club racing, with a crew and most of them optimized for IRC racing. Boats like First, Performance line by Dufour, Performance line by Elan, Dehler, X-yacht, Arcona, Finngulf are just some examples. These boats are better sailing boats, adapted to cruising, more seaworthy and more expensive than their pure cruising siblings.

But the boats that I am talking about have little in common with these boats, First they are not designed taking into account any rule, except the design rules to make them faster and safer, second they are not aiming at crews, but at the solo sailor and third they have not luxury interiors, but solid, light and functional interiors, I would say very basic interiors. They make the sailing part of cruising the principal object of their design.

They are the opposite of modern mass production boats. While for the typical mass production cruiser, living at the marina is one of the principal design directives, on these ones, sailing is what matters, and having pleasure while doing it, the objective:D . These babies are made to go fast and away, out on the bluewater and can outperform any of the cruiser-racers that I have referred to….I mean a 35ft of these can outperform any 40ft of those:D .

As you can suspect, I am a big fan, but unfortunately, even produced in small series these boats are expensive. They are made with the best materials, hi-tech everywhere except on the furniture and, as I have said on another thread, a very good and well built sailing boat with a basic interior will be much more expensive than a basic sailboat with a good interior and I would add, unfortunately:eek: .

Let us talk about the Pogo 10,5. I will post some photos and the link….and if you are interested, just ask and I can probably add some more information. If you like it, please post some feedback.











Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
The Pogo 10.50 i a 35ft and it costs, fully equipped, more than 200 000 euro.

I know that boat is quite the opposite of what you find in the American market. It is very fast, it is basic, but you can cross safely oceans with it and it has plenty of space for a couple.

On Europe in less than a year Pogo have sold 40. That means that around here there are a market for cruisers that would trade a certain kind of comfort, for speed and sail pleasure… the Pogo 10.50 is the boat they favor in this moment (sail boat of the year).
 

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PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
I've spent 15 years living over in Europe, work there now, and am somewhat familiar with the European sailboat manufacturers. That said, I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?
 

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The 10.50 has forced me to go back to work - I just need one!!!

The guys at the shipyard are very nice and welcoming. The boat is beautiful and it just works like a charm. Quite practical & livable as well - just a do it all sailboat that will get you from point A to point B in no time.
 

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PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
I've spent 15 years living over in Europe, work there now, and am somewhat familiar with the European sailboat manufacturers. That said, I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?
Having sailed a 109 but only been on the 10.50 here's an initial take. The 109 is a cruiser/racer. The 10.50 is an offshore/cruiser.

The 109 has more creature comforts down under but is more cramped, less airy, and has less stowage and space. Above deck it is really well thought out but the wheel & main track positioning clutters up the latter half of the cockpit. It is a well built boat that is a bit of a do it all design from a pointing perspective. Sails and responds well. Certainly not worth (in my opinion) the premium compared to other boats in the range - SF32, 34.7, Dehler34, etc... 90's design before widespread planing hulls that can point (Finot et al)

The 10.50 is a more spartan environment underdeck but it is pretty open and airy. Decent stowage and although it's not classy, the drawers & lockers just work. The team really applied the KISS principle and although the lack of wood grain & trim may be an initial turn off given the price, there's a lot of smart thinking that's gone into it. Above deck it is a very well laid out cockpit and controls are readily available for singlehanding. Dual tiller opens up the space at anchor and there's room for the whole crew. the boat is very well made - feels rock solid and very well built - easy access to systems and areas of potential repair. Crashbox up front and excellent deck hardware. You can tell from my previous post that I'm a fan. This boat can point and maintain speed and off wind it's a monster! That's the 2 for 1 deal with some of these modern designs vs. the J boats these days. You get it all AND the swing keel to get where the other boats of half the performance can't reach. I see this as the near perfect boat for the sailing crowd that doesn't mind the lack of wood trim and some creature comforts.

I can easily see going on that 3 month family cruise, then a year later doing the ARC, then island hopping on the weekends, then heading off into the yonder for another destination. I'll take the concession of not having woodgrain & felt interiors for a boat that will regularly hit 13-15 kts safely off-wind and open up so many more navigation zones for short trips because of this. That's just me.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Pogo 10.50 / J109

PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
..., I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?
Thanks!:)

<O:p</O:p
Marty is right. Those boats are very different. Th J109 is a great boat, but a boat designed to be competitive in IRC and to be raced with a crew. To go fast upwind The boat really needs the weight of a full crew on the side of the boat and to go really fast downwind it needs weight on the back of the boat (crew) and a very experienced hand at the wheel. It is not a forgiving boat (if sailed on the limit), but it is a boat that is a lot fun to sail, because it is a fast nervous and demanding boat.

Both boats are about the same lenght but the J107 weighs 4,944kg and has a 2.1M draft (deep Keel) with a 3.51M beam and the Pogo weighs 3600kg with a 3.9M beam and a 2.8M draft.
That means that not only the Pogo is a much more stable boat (heels a lot less) as it is also a much lighter boat.

How is that done? Easy, while the J109 design is constrained by the IRC rules (to be racing competitive) the Pogo is designed with pure efficiency in mind (smal crew sailing). It is the offspring of many years of open solo ocean boat’s development from the minis to the open 60’s. The Pogo is lighter because its huge stability comes not only from a much superior form stability (beam) but also because its keel is a lot deeper . To have( a smaller) stability, the J109 with na inferior beam and with a much shorter keel, has to rely on ballast, and lots of it. The boat carries 1769kg ballast, and therefore it is heavier.

Probably both boats will go upwind at the same speed, providing you have the crew sitting on the side of the J109, downwind probably the Pogo will go faster, but that is not the point. The point is that you don’t need a crew to go really fast on the Pogo and that, while on the J109 you need a crew and an experienced wheelman to go at 16k downind, on a Pogo…you can sleep and leave the job to the autopilot. The Pogo is a very forgiving boat that goes fast with little heeling. The J is a nervous boat, (not a forgiving boat if sailed fast) and a boat that is designed to heel a lot while sailing fast.

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/croisiere/feuilletage/307/feuilletage-croisiere-essai-course-croisiere-pogo-10-50-structures-finot-conq
Photos

So, if you want to go club racing around the cans with a full and experienced crew, the J109 is the boat. If you want to cross the Atlantic fast, solo or with a mate, then the Pogo is your boat. Both boats, in their own way are very good fast sailing boats and boats that give a lot of pleasure to sail.

Of course, with the Pogo you can also pull the keel up and go to the beach:D .

Another diference is that the interior space of the Pogo is much bigger (beam) and also its load capacity and that increases its autonomy.

I leave you with the words of the Designer, Jean Marie Finot, the” father” of the French racing designers and the man that more contributed to the development of the Open solo boats (and its safety) :

“Pogo 10.50 is an offshore-going boat,
able to find shelter in any cove. Designed with simplicity in mind, it is fast and doesn't heel much. It can accomodate a family or a gang of friends. The hull is very wide and stable, with a deep lifting keel. The twin rudders keep control in all conditions.
The balance of the boat is retained under heel, allowing large sails to be carried. Stability and sail area grant high speed in all conditions.
All the lines are led back to the large cockpit. A stowage aft is dedicated to the liferaft.”

The man is now aproaching 70, has designed hundreds of boats, and guess what his personal boat is? A Pogo 10.50, to have fun while cruising with his wife. My kind of sailor;) .

http://www.finot.com/ecrits/ecritsurg/finotfather.htm
Groupe Finot, Architectes navals

Regards

Paulo
 

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Paulo,

Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................

I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!

Both are beauty's in there own right.

The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.

If any one of the 4 would show up in my slip to replace my 85 Jeanneau Arcadia, no big deal, I'd be a HAPPY camper......ooops......Sailor!

Marty
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Sunfast 3200

Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................


I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!


Both are beauty's in there own right.

The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.

Marty
Yes, I agree. The Jeanneau 3200 has a place on this thread.

It is a very interesting boat, it has nothing in common with other jeanneau boats and has a very surprising price, possible because the boat is built by Jeanneau in relatively large numbers. It is also a small fast oceangoing boat, very adapted to solo sailing and designed in the open boat tradition (minis and open 60’s).

I believe it that it is very revealing that both the 10.50 and the 3200 Designers have chosen to buy them as their personal boats. That gives you also an image of the typical French boat designer that, I believe it is different than most boat designers around the world: They love fast sailing boats, have their roots in racing sailing boats, particularly solo and small crew ocean racing sailboats. They are not only designers, but also sailors and it says a lot that both of them think that the most enjoyable boat to cruise is a light fast boat with a light but practical interior.

Daniel Andrieu have designed a lot of racing boats, from Class America boats to the 90’s most popular French monotype, the Jod 35.

AndrieuDesign - Achievements - Sail

I am going to have some days of vacations and I am going to travel, for a week or so, in the UK (Southeast), so I will not be around, but I would like to invite Marty to post on this thread about the Sunfast 3200 and ask BB74 to answer questions or to continue the discussion on the Pogo 10.5. After all it seems he is going to have one, while my wife has threaten me with divorce, if I buy one. He has also been inside one while I have only been inside its big brother, the 40class boat.

Just to open the Sunfast 3200 presentation, some videos about it:

Transquadra - Transat solitaire et double réservée aux amateurs.

Regards

Paulo
 

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There's a 3 year wait list on the Pogo 10.50 for a reason. Having said that some could be looking to swap options to a later date so last I spoke a 2013 delivery schedule could work... Last I spoke with the builders, there were a few slots late 2013 but that was 2 months ago so you never know...

I've not yet bought one, but my wife is OK with it so once we do the trial by fire with the kids in May on another boat, it may be tough not to write the check... I'll keep you posted.

190K € is a lot of coin but the good thing is with the demand, and the controlled volumes, the resale actually holds very well on these boats. Same can be said for the 8.50, not so much for the Open 40 given it's pure racing focus. Knowing there is a high probability you can sell the boat if the need arises and at a good rate is a comfort vs. ponying up top dollar for more mass market boats that may take a big hit (31.7, 34.7, etc, etc). Overall there will be a premium for usage but I don't think on a 5 year basis it would cost more than a 20K€ difference between going with a 10.50 or a more mainstream boat - that's a reasonable trade off for some to get this type of boat but I freely admit, it's reach for quite a few.
 

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Paulo,

have a good vacation.

Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.

sunfast3200, Sail boat

This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper!

Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm.......

There are a few JOD 35's around here. one won a SH trans atlantic race last summer.

Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!

Marty
 

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Paulo,

have a good vacation.

Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.

sunfast3200, Sail boat

This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper!

Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm.......

There are a few JOD 35's around here. one won a SH trans atlantic race last summer.

Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!

Marty
the new Figaro are really race boats. Undersides are all about carrying extra sails & rigging so I couldn't see refitting for a family type cruise. It's the difference between camping and doing outdoors bivouac if you see what I mean. They are ocean going boats however and work very well. I haven't been on the new model but have been on the previous one. Very technical rigging and you need to tune, tune, tune to get the best out of them.
 
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