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Excellent thread guys, thanks for the discussion.
I'm in Trinidad right now with a dial-up connection, so I'll make this brief. Has anyone mentioned the RM 10.50?? This seems to be in the same sort of genre. Any comments? At initial glance, I like this boat!
RM's - nice but haven't sailed on one visited in boat shows.

Pretty good reputation as a do anything boat, but no-where near the performance of the Pogo, Bongo, etc type builds. Well thought out, a number of transat & other trips. Pricey but again, good reputation with the builders & owners.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
RM's - nice but haven't sailed on one visited in boat shows.
Pretty good reputation as a do anything boat, but nowhere near the performance of the Pogo, Bongo, .... Well thought out, a number of transat & other trips. Pricey but again, good reputation with the builders & owners.
Yes, I agree (not about the price). I have visited the factory and I was impressed. These boats deserve a special place in this thread (as very interesting boats), they are fast, but they are not on the same category of Pogo (or Bongo) so we will talk about them later...I will only say that I like them a lot...and that the RM 1200 is the boat my wife prefers (it could be worse :D ).

Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.

sunfast3200, Sail boat
This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper! Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm

Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!

Marty
Marty,

BB74 is right. The Figaro are race boats, less comfortable (for cruising) than a Sunfast 3200 and very technical boats…made for the best Ocean solo sailors to fight with equal arms. On the Figaro the guys from the open 60 meet with the kids from the Minis , and the “Figaristes” just to see who is the fastest.

I remember the comment of a well known Open 60 sailor that also races the “Figaro”: He says that perhaps the Figaro could have more “power” but while on an Open 60 they have to manage the boat (not to break) with a Figaro is full blast all the time – the boat can take anything.

But there is another boat that is adapted for what you want. It is an Oceangoing boat, a little faster than the Sunfast, bigger and a lot better under IRC racing: The A35

The boat is a winner. Take a look:


http://www.archambault-boats.eu/maintenance/dir_upload/docs/A35PALMARES.pdf

It is also the boat that has won the last Transquadra in Duo. But for the Transquadra they fit the boat with a different Keel, for better efficiency ... but that would penalize the boat under IRC (that’s the stupidity of any rating rule, you do not design the better boat, but only the fastest boat under the rules).

They have a racing version but also a very fast cruising one…and that one comes with a very acceptable interior. Beautiful boat anyway.

BATEAUX ARCHAMBAULT

I believe you want to say a 40 class boat and not an Open 40. Almost all the 40 Class boats on the used market are racing boats. The cruising ones are very few....and with a 3 meters draft you are very limited in what regards cruising. Of course, if you plan to be a rich man:D , you can buy the new baby from Pogo, the 12.50.

Pogo

This one, like its little brother, the 10.50, has a movable keel and variable draft. An incredibly beatiful boat, even better than the 10.50 and with movable ballast...but at a price that is not for everybody, I am afraid (I want one).:(

Regarding the availability of these kinds of boats in the States, I would look to Maritinica. Lots of French boats there.

If you have the money go right now for this one;) :

Opium 39 Martinique

Very good price, very fast boat…and also a very good cruising one.

The Opium 39 is a Lombard designed boat. Its production (very small series) stopped some years back, but the design is so up to date that Wauquiez is going to start producing them, replacing its 40 cruising-racer

Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
Rn 1050

Excellent thread guys, thanks for the discussion.
I'm in Trinidad right now with a dial-up connection, so I'll make this brief. Has anyone mentioned the RM 10.50?? This seems to be in the same sort of genre. Any comments? At initial glance, I like this boat!
Well you are not the only one liking this boat. This is the more popular boat of the RM range and RM is one of the boat manufacturers that has grown more in the last years. No crisis for RM.

As pictures can say a lot I will post some that are revealing. Take also a look at the interior on the 360º pictures (link at the end)) and at the boat technical characteristics and at some unusual ones: Big tankage, lots of stability (form stability and ballast), big rig, lots of sail, cutter rig, fine entries, twin keels almost racing setup in what concerns running rigging, big interior with lots of light, good quality, comfortable and functional interior with plenty views to the scenery....and made of wood. I mean marine plywood impregnated with epoxy. They say it makes a stronger boat, compared with the fiberglass ones.

RM YACHTS | Le concept

RM YACHTS | RM 1050

That's an unusual boat, to say the least...and if I say that this is a favorite boat among the French bluewater sailors and among the ones that really sail a lot, that it is very difficult to find them at the used market and that it is one of the boats that loses less value....you would have to agree that it is an interesting boat.:)












Visite 360°


Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
RM 1050 / Twin keels

Paulo,
Imagine I'm buying you an RM1050,
is it going to be twin keel or single??
That's not possible cause I have not one:D but I think all of them (10.50) are twin keel. Everybody goes with the twins.

The shipyard says about it:

"Jusqu’à aujourd’hui, nous étions et restons totalement convaincus de l’excellence des biquilles conçus par Marc Lombard et mis en œuvre chez RM : tirant d’eau réduit, couple de rappel optimisé, plan anti-dérive parfait, stabilité de route, capacité à échouer, performances étonnantes à toutes les allures.
Ce principe de biquilles performantes, que nous sommes les seuls au monde à exploiter, reste un des axes fondamentaux de notre politique. Cependant, autant nos clients français en ont parfaitement compris la pertinence, autant les marchés export restent dubitatifs…

A la demande de nos importateurs dans les différents pays où RM est présent (Espagne, Italie, Norvège, Grande Bretagne), nous avons décidés de proposer une version GTE (Grand tirant d’Eau) en monoquille pour les RM1050 et RM1200. Marc Lombard travaille actuellement sur les dessins de quilles, de sorte que nous puissions équiper les RM1050 et RM1200 qui le demanderont à compter de l’automne 2008."

I mean, if you really want, they will make you a single keel (only proposed very recently) but the original concept is a Twin. The twin keels are almost as performant as the single (minimal difference really) and have the added advantage of less draft and the possibility of putting the boat out of the water, for small repairs or antifouling, or just to go at the beach:D .

The single keel is proposed more for the 1200 and especially for the 1350, for the guys that want to do offshore racing. They are not ridiculous at that. An RM 1200 has done well on a med offshore race against racing boats (3th and 4th) and this 1350 (look at the link) is going to race the "Route du Rhum" (famous and big transat) and I bet that it is going to be among the first cruisers-racers, if not the first (and the boat was not even designed as a cruiser-racer, but as a fast cruiser):

RM YACHTS | Actualités

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
Wow! That's my idea of fun. They are having so much fun they shout out of pleasure!!!:D

Thanks for the videos.

I know that a lot of guys are going to look at the videos and are going to say: That's a racing boat, for racing sailors.

No, it is not, it is a cruising boat for sailors that like to have pleasure while sailing. That's the same boat that we have posted about in this thread, the one that can pull the keel up and go right to the beach:) . If you take a good look you can see that the boat is going straight as an arrow and that the tiller guy is relaxed and the boat is fully in control while the other guys are just enjoying the ride.

Easy, fast and versatile....What a boat;)

Regards

Paulo
 

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Exactly!

Stable at speed - you could be down under making coffee & a snack for the crew at 20 knots because the boat is stable at speed.

Even the upwind routes are pretty good, stability and pounding wise. I was supposed to do a test sail in April but calendars permitting, it may be more along the lines of May now.

Finot knows how to design boats and I can't wait to try this one!

and for those wondering about the Figaro (another Finot boat btw...)

 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
Voyage

Cool!
Andy Lepiarczyk sailed a Figaro single handed around the world last year.
I have spoken to him about it a number of times but haven't managed to see his boat yet "mighty chicken" Perhaps next time home I'll get a chance.
What a name for a boat:D :D :D

If someone want to know more about a 60 year old guy circunavigating in a small modern and fast boat:

West Van resident conquers open seas

Pogoria.org - Off Around the World

Be carefull with the last one. Unless you speack Pollish, click only on the links on the end of the page.

He says that the average speed was 132 miles a day. That gives an average of 5.5K. Not bad:)

Regards

Paulo
 

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Hi Marty,
I owe Mr. Lepiarczyk a visit. You are welcome to join me. The last time I spoke to Andy, he welcomed me aboard his boat. To this date, I have always been overseas (as I am now) and have not been able to take him up on his offer. He is such a nice, accomodating guy. I can't wait to meet him. He just loves to talk about sailing, so he's got the right audience here!

He told me he couldn't find a suitable vessel in NA, so he flew over to France and singlehanded the boat back to Vancouver, via Panama. This guys got balls and my hat goes off to him. That's official.

We sometimes strive to emulate our Heroes, and that's my goal. To do what he did, but I want to take the love-of-my-life with me.
My ears are wide open, trying to keep mouth closed, and keep learning (fast!) :)
 

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When I first laid my eyes on the Pogo, I loved it, but then I eyeballed the swing keel and my heart sank. Because I do not want a gimacky boat. My next sail boat must be as simple as possible. I figured the swing keel was just another area of possible concern. Then PCP and BB74 come along and demonstrate that my original thinking may be off. I watch the videos and realize that perhaps I was too hasty. Certainly my initial opinion of the J109 has changd from listening to this thread. Anyway, the types of boats we are talking about in this thread is what I'm currently spending my research time on.

Drop me a PM and I'll arrange a meeting for us to see Mighty Chicken.
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
Pogo swing keel

I looked up the Pogo the other day a bit more. About as I figured it would be different from a SF3200. Not sure the swing keel would be my cup of tea, but interesting none the less. For sailing here where I am, I would prefer a fixed keel version if there was one. ...Marty
The swing keel has nothing to do with a centerboard swing keel. On those the keel has no ballast, on the Pogo, all the keel is ballast and most of it is at the bottom (2.80M). If they had a fixed keel, to give the boat the same characteristics (big stability and low weight), they would have to put a keel with about the same draft. A boat with 2,8M draft would not be practical for cruising purposes...and the solution was the swing keel.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
Daysailer, Morris yachts

....
...
I do know and understand that in Europe the smaller builders do a bit better than here in NA. Not to say there are not some smaller builders, BUT, the ones that do build here, seem to build "Old Shoes" shall we say or call them. Getting a reasonable high tech style boat like the Pogo, SF3200 or equal is hard. There is someone I recall is starting to build a Transat 6.5 in Texas that is reasonable in price per say. BUT< that is WAY WAY to small for spouse and keeping her happy. There are a few smaller builders, but they do not generally speaking, other than Morris yachts in Maine, seem to have smaller runs of boats. I would not call the Morris boat yard a high tech yard like a pogo. They do build excellent yachts mind you, but not what I would call a style "Marty" wants!
...
Marty
Marty,

I believe that the reason why you have less "modern" small boat hi-tech builders in the NA is because unfortunately there are fewer sailors interested in these kinds of boats there.

I know Morris yard. I have talked with some of the guys on the 2008 Dusseldorf boat show. They have boats with incredible quality and finish at some incredible prices too:D . I like particularly the M series (traditional old style day sailors). Yes I like all kinds of beautiful boats:) . But Morris yard has nothing of a high tech shipyard. In what concerns hull design, not even the fastest and more ambitious design (the 51) can be considered modern.

Anyway I have to say, that modern or not, I find the Morris 46 (very classical) and the Morris 51 (more modern) very beautiful boats and if I could own one (specially the 51) I would be a happy man:) . Considering basic prices, no taxes and 2008 prices, the 46 was priced at around 800000USD and the 51 at 1140000USD. Considering taxes, actual prices and equipment, you can add at least 50% to that price. Why am I talking of such big boats? Because, by design (Hull), the interior of the Morris yachts is very small. The interior of the 46 has about the same interior space of, for instance, a Najad 410, or a RM 1200 and that's in the size I am interested in.

Daysailer | Morris Yachts
Morris 46 | Morris Yachts
Blue water sailboat | Morris Yachts

When talking about small American Hi-tech shipyard, the name that comes to my mind is Aerodyne. But looking better I found out that it is not really an American shipyard:( ...Well, we can say half American, because they use an American architect and I believe that a substantial part of their boats is sold in America (they have a dealer in America).

The Architect I am talking about is Roger Martin and he is responsible for some very interesting, fast and modern boats, American boats.

Rodger Martin Yacht Design

But probably the Aerodyne boat that is more interesting to this thread is a Finot design. The A-35. The A35 is a kind of precursor of the Pogo 10.50...designed and built 10 years earlier. It is still a very interesting boat.

But even with water ballast and a bulb keel, to have the kind of performance he wanted, Finot could not reduce the draft to less than 2.5M and that is unpractical for cruising. That's why he has directed his work and thoughts to a practical lifting keel, to obtain the same performance without losing the cruising practicability.

Read this boat test and see how the guys of a relatively conservative American magazine were impressed by the boat:

http://www.aerodyne.fi/assets/models/ad35/ad35_review.pdf
Aerodyne Yachts Ltd.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
Quest 33, Roger Martin

Eh!eh! IT looks that I have found an interesting American sailboat, a modern and a very fast one. I had never heard about it. Does someone know the Quest boats? I have found them looking at the boats designed by Roger Martin: Find a good designer and you will find good boats:)

Roger Martin says about it:


"The Quest 33 is a superb example of a fast contemporary "club racer" in which a family can comfortably cruise, and win 'round-the-buoys or point-to-point races under PHRF. These boats are Open Designs, and are not based on any restrictive rules! The Quest 33 is a development of the successful Quest 30, designed by us and built by Holby Marine Co.
The Quest 33 offers a finer entry for increased upwind speed, a longer waterline for greater speed all 'round and larger interior and cockpit spaces. ...

This is a proven fast sailplan in PHRF, fast coastal passages & even in the Singlehanded TransAtlantic Race! while for cruising the boat has all the power you need from the mainsail & 100% jib. The ingenious bowsprit shoots out at the pull of a line for setting the asymmetrical spinnaker. Wide traveler, vang and halyard give infinite tuning power to the mainsail.
....
The Quest 33 is faster than many boats 5 & 10 feet longer! This boat is a PHRF winner! The sailplan is highly refined and easy to use & adapt, and the fin-keel & rudder are the latest, thin, high-aspect foil designs.
The design is based on the same principals as the Open Class 'round the world BOC racers & is unspoiled by slavish following of arcane 'racing' rules. These are called 'handicaps' for good reason! Yet a family cruising with ease will make very fast trips from port to port, & have the pleasure of gliding by bigger boats during a daysail.

The Quest 33 provides sportboat-like performance in a stable, easy-to-sail boat with generous cruising space in the cockpit and interior. "

Rodger Martin Yacht Design

Holby Marine Company - Quest 33

Regards

Paulo

Edit: PS- It looks that NA really don't like fast boats:

"After 25 years of being in business, Holby Marine Company has closed its doors for business. As a former leading edge composite boat manufacturer, the company is offering for sale the molds on the Pilot line of power boats and the Quest line of racing yachts. The sale will take place on May 4, 2010 at our former manufacturing location ..."

Holby Marine Company - Leading composite boat manufacturer, yachts, sailboats, powerboats, skiffs, Quest 33, Yacht Manufacturers
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
Elan 310

In this months "Sailing" Bob Perry does a review of the dehler 32 and Elan 310. I like the look of the E310 more than the D32. Potentially a nicer interior than an SF3200, but probably a bit slower, and no where near the quality of the Pogo. I've heard Elan is a lower end European boat, but, that does not always mean it is a bad boat either. ....Marty
The Elan is not a low end quality boat. They have two lines, a cruising and a performance one. The performance one (like on the Beneteau, regarding the "First line") has a better quality and it is more expensive. The Elan 31 is from the performance line.

The Performance boats have a better quality than Beneteau, Jeanneau and Hanse. Perhaps the same quality of the performance line of Dufours (better than the cruising line of Dufours) and a little bit under Dehler and Gran Soleil. I don't know why, but the value of used boats is not so good (probably because there are a lot of people that think like you):) .

The 31 is a great boat (great designer). It has made quite an impression on the market (all the boat tests are very positive).

Look at this video:


And the next one, the Elan 35 looks even better:)

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

http://sail.elan-yachts.com/slike/plovila/e350/Elan_350_design_notes.pdf

Elan 350


Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Also Marty a smaller builder will have a higher unit cost than a larger volume builder even if the boats were identical. ....
Yes I agree. If the boat is produced in large numbers I believe that the difference can be almost 50%.

That's not only the best prices you can have on all the hardware needed (if you buy 400 winches instead of 10, you would have a large discount and the same applies for masts, hatches, windlasses and so on) but also the hours of labor that you can cut using industrial robots. But those are very expensive and to have them you need a large prodution facility.

The price of boats is not proportional to their quality. More expensive boats tend to have better quality, but not in proportion with prices.

That makes specially interesting medium boat manufacturers like Elan, Hanse, RM, Grand Soleil, that are growing and becoming bigger, modernising their production units and proposing boats that are different than the ones produced by Hunter, Bavaria and Beneteau (mainstream) at prices that are affordable, even if not comparable.

But even if those Brands are having success, not all of the medium good quality manufacturers have done it. Dehler, whose quality was recognized by everyone didn't make it. Probably its offer was not the right one and the boats competed too closely with mainstream producers, like the ones from First and Dufour(performance), that could sell similar products for less money.

Regards

Paulo
 

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The only downside sailing wise for the 1050 and 1060 RM's is the main traveller that's smack in the middle of the cockpit. Any uncontrolled gybes and you have a dangerous situation for the crew in the cockpit.

Granted, any unplanned gybe can get nasty quick but on the RM (like quite a few other designs), you have a facefull of mainsail rigging if you're not careful. It would have been interesting to see them do a coachroof traveller or something farther back with a center console like the Pogo.

Upside is all controls are centered including the genois / foresail so no more sitting on the rail in the wet to tune.

Lombard has a very good track record as well and I imagine this should be a nice sailing boat.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
The only downside sailing wise for the 1050 and 1060 RM's is the main traveller that's smack in the middle of the cockpit. Any uncontrolled gybes and you have a dangerous situation for the crew in the cockpit.
.
The main traveller is not on the midle of the cockpit, it is behind the helm on the back of the boat, out of the way from the crew and at hand to the guy that is at the helm.



Regards

Paulo
 
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