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Discussion Starter · #521 ·
The Hammerhead 35 seems to get a lot of attention at the London Boat Show (not to be confused with Hammerhead 34, a multihull that you've already shown in this thread).

....
Please tell me you haven't already covered HM35 :) :) :)
Nah! That's an interesting concept...but ugly boat in my opinion. Why such big "windows" on the interior? It's the "DS" of the sport boats?:D

"The amazing canting keel is remotely controlled via a fob worn around the skippers neck."

What the hell is a "fob"?

Regards

Paulo
 

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What the hell is a "fob"?

Regards

Paulo
A 'fob' is like a key ring tag, or in this case more like a remote keyless entry for your car. Waaay back when, people had 'watch fobs' to which their pocket watches were attached.:)

fob 1 |fäb|
noun (also fob chain)
a chain attached to a watch for carrying in a waistcoat or waistband pocket.
• a small ornament attached to a watch chain.
• (also fob pocket) a small pocket for carrying a watch.
• a tab on a key ring.
Unless, of course, we're talking about an FOB - Freakin' Obese Boater - generally found among the ranks of Stinkpotters!;)
 

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THere is a fleet of the mini 12's here in Seattle too. IIRC a grudge type match once a year tween RVicYC ad SeattleYC, but do not quote me on that. They might even have slightly different mini 12's, as I believe there are a couple of variants.

I like the H35. Altho similar to a schock 40 that was built in California a number of years ago, did not amount to much. Still a few around, Think one could still get built. But locally anyhow, you can not use the CK as one should with the rating system used, so there are very few canters around. I would think if a fleet could be made on a local basis, so CK boats raced against ea other, not against fixed keels or multi's, then one might find more on the horizon in smaller versions like this. Otherwise, unfortunately, one is buying for the most part, a one off boat that one can talk about at the dock/cruising etc, but be pretty useless for racing.

Marty
 

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Discussion Starter · #524 · (Edited)
Pacer 376

One that I find beautiful and that has also made some impression in Europe is the Pacer 376. It is a South African boat and in its cruising version has a nice interior. To have more space on the salon, galley and front cabin they chose to have open back cabins. An Ideal boat for a couple with kids.

The only problem regarding cruising would be the 2.4M draft:eek: . Most cruiser racers come now with drafts like that but propose also a more reduced draft (about 2.1). Maybe they don't have it on the technical characteristics but can have it done.

They will show this one on the Dusseldorf boat show. I am going to have a look at it and its price:).













Pacer Yachts :: Information on South Africa's finest yacht builders for sportboat sailing

Regards

Paulo
 

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This is a very nice boat - and fast!
I will probably sail with this one on "Gotland Runt" this year. Let's see...

When you accept to live without doors, Pogo is part of the game again.

Ulf
 

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Discussion Starter · #526 · (Edited)
..
When you accept to live without doors, Pogo is part of the game again.

Ulf
No, the doors are important to me. Privacy is important to me, I have grown up kids, soon they will be married or living with someone and I love to sail with the family and without doors, well, it would be a bit...humm, you get my drift:D

Besides after taking into consideration the kind of sailing I do and that I hope to still make (mostly coastal sailing with some offshore passages and an occasional ocean crossing), the Pogo is not the ideal boat in what regards sailing. The Pogo is really good if you want to travel extensively along the trade winds, but if you want to do the kind of sailing I want, a good traditional cruiser-racer is not less fast and it is more comfortable in a seaway.

Look at the results of the last Sydney-Hobart: There was a racing Pogo doing it (class 40) and it barely finished ahead from the fastest First 40 (10m). If Two True, the fastest First 40 had not retired (with engine problems) it would have stayed well ahead from the Pogo.

And that is not an accident, That Pogo is extensively raced by local racers and have made several Sydney- Hobart. In 2009, again, it stayed ahead from Paca (the first First on this year's edition) by only 8m, but Two True, the First 40 that was leading in compensated time this year's race (before retire), finished ahead the racing Pogo by 8 hours.

The kind of sailing I do have more to do with those conditions than with following the trade winds, were the Pogo is unbeatable;)

Regards

Paulo
 

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2011 - a good year

A general observation: 2011 looks to be a very good year for sailboat design. We owe at least this to the recent year's financial circus. The large manufacturers have had to take their eye off boats rolling out the door and instead turn to development, and the marginal and also-rans have either been bought or gone down. You can probably count more new genuinely new models now than in the previous several years.

Another factor is that most have completed their transition to new production techniques and new materials that only began to mature ten years ago. The same goes for equipment all the way from engines and sails - will we see diesel-electrics? - to electronics. The product cycle is noticeably shorter. The big remaining question will be whether the buying public will be equally adventurous. Sailors are a conservative bunch.

Some trends:
Hard chines. Centerboards/Lifting keels, and twin keels - a surprising number of builders have added these to their range. Canting keels, yes - though I'd personally want these tested in numbers for at least 5-10 years before I rely on one. More glass. More light. Twin rudders. Better speed - motorsailors are gone from most markets, replaced by the less loaded term "Decksaloon", and these must increasingly improve speed to stay competitive.

Finally - and this may be too early to call: more boats adapted to families and individuals? The charter market has always been responsible for soaking up large numbers of beamy, roomy and under-rigged floating palaces with far too many cabins for private owners' needs. This market also drove the equipment market towards mass production of "average" quality - and a company like Lewmar almost went under when the bottom fell out of the market. Lately, Lewmar has rediscovered the after-market and new products. Judging by where innovation seems to occur now, we may be seeing more "real" sailboats - one hopes :)

I am a bit of an optimist. Perhaps that is why is see the 2011 market as closer to the 1970s when sailing interest peaked and great boats were made? There has been development in between, but now we see a mature crop where almost no boat is truly bad, and new materials and designs have lifted interiors a whole level across the board.

A quick retort to Paulo:
Nah! That's an interesting concept...but ugly boat in my opinion. Why such big "windows" on the interior? It's the "DS" of the sport boats?:D
Paulo
Well, there's no accounting for taste :) :)
The greater glass areas in new boats owes much to new materials - an extreme example being the Sirius 35DS in this thread, with hull ports in bulletproof polycarbonate almost three times the thickness of German Army bulletproof staff cars. The tiny pigs' eye round ports of the 1960's boats had to do with adapting to leaking frames, the imperfect strength and price of glass, and hull materials not permitting large glass areas to be stable or secure. Personally, I see many reasons to have large glass areas and almost none favoring the opposite, if we disregard sailing in Polar Regions. A big plus comes for single-hand sailors: you don't want to go below and lose all connection to the business end outside.

I'll follow up with a brief summary of more boats - they do proliferate!
 

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There was a racing Pogo doing it (class 40) and it barely finished ahead from the fastest First 40 (10m). If Two True, the fastest First 40 had not retired (with engine problems) it would have stayed well ahead from the Pogo.
So here we are again. >>> First 40 is faster? <<<

We had this discussion before and you said..

Who says that?

Regarding the polars they consider flat water. With waves, probably the First will drag less water and certainly will be more comfortable , but I doubt that it will be faster, at least with all the winds. Anyway the difference will not be big.
So meanwhile it seems the difference is not big, but Pogo has the tendency to be slower in mixed wind conditions, right?

Ulf

PS: How would you rate a Defline 43 in comparison?
 

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Discussion Starter · #529 ·
So here we are again. >>> First 40 is faster? <<<

...
So meanwhile it seems the difference is not big, but Pogo has the tendency to be slower in mixed wind conditions, right?

Ulf

PS: How would you rate a Defline 43 in comparison?
The Defline is fast but it is on another category. It will be slower than the Pogo12.50 or the First. It is a more heavy boat more orientated for passage making and it is with the same type of boats that he should be compared. For instance with the RM 1300. And I don't know if it will be faster cause the RM 1300 is a very fast boat:)

Besides the facts that I have pointed out regarding the Sydney Hobart race, I am just guessing but I would say that when things get rough upwind, the First 40 will have the upper hand (and will provide a smother ride).

By what is said on the tests, from 90º to the true wind to downwind, the Pogo will be faster. The main difference will be downwind with winds over 20K.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter · #530 · (Edited)
Hammerhead 35

A general observation: 2011 looks to be a very good year for sailboat design. We owe at least this to the recent year's financial circus. The large manufacturers have had to take their eye off boats rolling out the door and instead turn to development, and the marginal and also-rans have either been bought or gone down. You can probably count more new genuinely new models now than in the previous several years.

Another factor is that most have completed their transition to new production techniques and new materials that only began to mature ten years ago. The same goes for equipment all the way from engines and sails - will we see diesel-electrics? - to electronics. The product cycle is noticeably shorter. The big remaining question will be whether the buying public will be equally adventurous. Sailors are a conservative bunch.

Some trends:
Hard chines. Centerboards/Lifting keels, and twin keels - a surprising number of builders have added these to their range. Canting keels, yes - though I'd personally want these tested in numbers for at least 5-10 years before I rely on one. More glass. More light. Twin rudders. Better speed - motorsailors are gone from most markets, replaced by the less loaded term "Decksaloon", and these must increasingly improve speed to stay competitive.

Finally - and this may be too early to call: more boats adapted to families and individuals? The charter market has always been responsible for soaking up large numbers of beamy, roomy and under-rigged floating palaces with far too many cabins for private owners' needs. This market also drove the equipment market towards mass production of "average" quality - and a company like Lewmar almost went under when the bottom fell out of the market. Lately, Lewmar has rediscovered the after-market and new products. Judging by where innovation seems to occur now, we may be seeing more "real" sailboats - one hopes :)
...
Nice insight:) . I would add twin wheels, bigger and more hull ports, broader sterns and beam brought aft and electric winches that can "push and pull" without taking out the line. Also the keels are becoming thinner, with almost all the weight brought down to a bulb.

Regarding better mass production boats, what we are seeing is that almost all producers are presenting very well designed inexpensive boats (that will be used like that on the charter business) but boats that can be upgraded with lots of extras (no luxury things, but better quality equipment) to a good quality sailing boat, with very good performance. These upgrades go in some cases till the hull, that can be upgrade to epoxy or vinilester and to complete performance rigs (sails, masts, running rigging) and even better keels. The upgraded boat and the standard boat are miles apart... as it is its price, that can be 50% or more.

A quick retort to Paulo:


Well, there's no accounting for taste :) :)
The greater glass areas in new boats owes much to new materials - an extreme example being the Sirius 35DS in this thread, with hull ports in bulletproof polycarbonate almost three times the thickness of German Army bulletproof staff cars. The tiny pigs' eye round ports of the 1960's boats had to do with adapting to leaking frames, the imperfect strength and price of glass, and hull materials not permitting large glass areas to be stable or secure. Personally, I see many reasons to have large glass areas and almost none favoring the opposite, if we disregard sailing in Polar Regions. A big plus comes for single-hand sailors: you don't want to go below and lose all connection to the business end outside.
..
I don't have nothing against large glass areas, if they are structurally sound, but having them up in the air in a boat that will be used mainly for racing or performance sailing, has no sense. In a racing boat (or in a very fast boat) a big house like the one that we can see on the Hammerhead 35 is prejudicial to performance. On a fast boat we want the wind on the sails, not laterally on the hull or in the house, making the boat drift sideways and losing way.

On Architectural jargon we use to say that form follows function and that the beauty comes from there. On the Hammerhead case the main function is performance (canting keel) but the rest of the design, mainly the cabin height is not designed accordingly and if that cabin was not so discordantly high you would not have space for those big glasses. Voilá, that's what I was trying to express when I have said that the boat was ugly:).



Regards

Paulo
 

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High is no advantage

We are agreed, really; without the measurements I'm just not sure that the Hammerhead 35 is so high.

The determining factor is often the height of the cockpit; you do after all need some head height to step down into the saloon, and that determines the height of the coach roof. Low cockpits are in favor with me, but you hear people worrying about the low-down decks of the "Open" style - I guess they have visions of being swept overboard by a wave :) :)

High cockpits can be the result of engine placement, and more frequently by the demands for rear cabins. This is how centre cockpit boats often come to look absurdly high.

While on the issue of prejudice: I heard one sailor reacting to the "low freeboard" of a boat, viewing it as a safety issue. This must be a throwback to the old-style ketches and Colin Archers and so forth, very tall structures. They make you feel high and safe from the ocean - until the waves begin, that is. If I were to seek safety, I'd certainly not be looking for boats with a high freeboard.

I am very curious to see how the Moody 45 will be received, and now others trying to follow, such as the Beneteau Sense. These attempts to bring cockpit and saloon to a "walk-through" common level don't do much for windage, though they appear very convenient.
 

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Discussion Starter · #532 · (Edited)
A 35

We are agreed, really; without the measurements I'm just not sure that the Hammerhead 35 is so high.

The determining factor is often the height of the cockpit; you do after all need some head height to step down into the saloon, and that determines the height of the coach roof. Low cockpits are in favor with me, but you hear people worrying about the low-down decks of the "Open" style - I guess they have visions of being swept overboard by a wave :) :)
...
While on the issue of prejudice: I heard one sailor reacting to the "low freeboard" of a boat, viewing it as a safety issue. This must be a throwback to the old-style ketches and Colin Archers and so forth, very tall structures. They make you feel high and safe from the ocean - until the waves begin, that is. If I were to seek safety, I'd certainly not be looking for boats with a high freeboard.

....
It is high for a performance boat. Take a comparison with the A35, one of the most beautiful and successful of the really fast 35fter (more than a hundred sold). A lot Less free-board and a lot less cabin height. Off course it will be more low inside (it has standing height on the saloon), but on a really performance boat designers should give preference to warranty less windage.



Yes you are right about high freeboard. It is one of the worse features in what regards dynamic stability and breaking waves.

About the Archimbault 35, I think I have talked about it but not posted about it. It is a wonderful boat for the ones that don't mind about open cabins. The boat has everything it is needed for cruising and is also a very good offshore boat an ideal boat for solo sailing. Regarding racing, it has won an incredible number of major races. I find it more beautiful than the Elan 350, even if the Elan has better cruising interiors (it has doors:D ).

















I have been inside one of these and I can tell you that it has a cosy interior and that it really does not have that "plastic" look many of these boats have.

BATEAUX ARCHAMBAULT

Regards

Paulo
 

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Farr 400 and J108

More novelties:
J-boats have a good name in the industry, and they now embrace lifting keels. The J95 (pictured below) was already available with a lifting keel and earned a Boat of the Year Award, and now the J109 can be had under the name J108 with a lifting keel - or a "pivoting centreboard", in J-Boats terminology. Keel down gives the same 7ft keel depth as J109, but withdrawn it can sail in 4ft. Yes, they claim it can sail with the keel up.
J/Boats: Better Sailboats for People Who Love Sailing. The Ultimate Cruising-Racing-One-Design Sailboats. Try J Sailing Gear, Sailing Clothing, Sailing Calendar, Caps, Vests, Jackets, T-Shirts, Books

For the racing crowd, what better than a Farr 40? It has been a fixture at race meets for a very long time, but now it has an heir: the Farr 400.
The Farr 400 hasn't got a natural fiber in its body, other than the lead in the keel. Farr merely calls it "an all carbon 40ft racing yacht" and they're not just referring to the hull. The mast is of course carbon, but so is the standing rigging, and the two primary winches are carbon.
The ballast ratio is 60% - you're meant to do some low flying upwind. Do I have photos of the interior? Nah - the people wanting Farr 400 probably couldn't care less.
Farr Yacht Design
 

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And a new X-Yacht

X-Yachts 38
When you want to combine performance with comfort, I think it is hard to go past X-Yachts. These Danish boats are quality throughout, and you can be fooled by their looks - they appear too luxurious to be performers - but they are.
The new X-Yacht 38 won't be available untill summer, but in that size range it won't be short of customers. The Polar diagram says it will do 12 knots in around 20 knots of wind, with foresail only it is meant to reach 14 knots when the wind builds to 28 knots+
In the new model, X-Yachts' customary steel frame construction is replaced with a carbon frame.
X-Yachts
 

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Dear OsmundL,
this is not new to us. XP38 has already been discussed in this thread: see page 56. I think we should try not to repeat ourselves even though this thread is already quite long. Obviously any new entrant is recommended to read from the beginning in order to avoid useless repetitions.
I think the more repetitions we collect here the more difficult it becomes to get or keep an overview.
Best Regards,
Ulf
 

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Apologies

Dear OsmundL,
this is not new to us. XP38 has already been discussed in this thread. Best Regards,
Ulf
Profound apologies! I actually did a Search for it in the thread just to be sure, because I could not recall it being discussed. The search came up with so many false leads - lots of mentions of Bavaria - that I gave up and felt safe.

I'll be more cautious now - very cautious. And probably very quiet :) :) :)
 

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:)
Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
Ulf
 

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Discussion Starter · #538 · (Edited)
:)
Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
Ulf
Hi ulf.

I think the boat you should compare the OVNI is not one from the performance series of X-Yacht, but from the Xc series (c for cruising). There is also a 38 on that series (a recent boat). We have talked about it and it's a great boat even if it represents a completely different aproach to cruising, compared to the one from OVNI. I also would be interested in hear what Osmundl think about the two in comparaison taking as departing point his cruising needs.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Rave rave rave

:)
Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
Ulf
Bloody good question! I have to think carefully about this, and I'm not even sure my initial response will be the final. I have the sinking feeling that it will end up with Pros and Cons.

To get one elephant out of the room right away: I am not going to say "Aluminum". While I have preferences for it, I do not think material choice is decisive - composites also have a lot going for them.

Rig: I sometimes wish for the X-38 rig. My Ovni has a large overlapping Genoa, which is great for going downwind on Genoa alone. On the other hand it is heavy to tack and slow to furl, but most of all the X-38 balance with a larger main sails sharper and gives finer control upwind. In favor of the Ovni, its rig is massively strong, with enough stays to keep an Airbus from lifting. A couple of years ago I stupidly headed into a 38-knot wind without a single reef (being lazy, I knew I was rounding a cape in 5 minutes if I could last). It felt surprisingly safe (though it would have moved faster with a reef or two). An inner forestay on the Ovni gives you the option of a small jib, handy.

Keel: When all is said, I suppose this would be the decider. It is where the X-38 gains a sailing advantage, but Ovni's lifting keel is more than a gimmick. Some examples: I've hit a huge timber log in the North Sea; the keel tipped back undamaged, the rudder likewise - I've also risked light groundings with barely a scratch in the antifouling. It sits flat on sandy beaches like a brick - I can get out and scrape barnacles at will. Less obvious: in marinas with Med moorings and anchor chains lurking everywhere, you lift the keel and don't worry. That keel is going to save me a lot of money. You also motor with the keel up, BTW, gaining some 0,2 knots. I would like the Ovni to point higher, but that applies mostly to light winds < 7 knots or hard wind > 30 knots.

Hull: Ovni has a very steady motion in sea, should be sailed relatively flat (<10-12 degrees heel is normal) and holds its course. In steady breeze on a tack I skip the autopilot and tie down the wheel, she goes like a train. In the long run, the greater heel of an X-38 becomes a (dis)comfort factor, even though she's a fine boat in sea.

Cockpit: this is clearly a subjective preference, but X-38 is just too open for my kind of sailing. I need a sprayhood - indeed I replaced the canvas sprayhood on Ovni with my very own fiberglass structure, giving far better visibility in rain. In combinations of cold, wind and rain, some shelter in the cockpit is virtually a necessity for enduring 10-12 hours of sailing. This is something you know for sure in situations when top standard Musto ocean gear over wool in several layers still leaves you cold. The human machine must also function.

Finish and such: X-38 is exquisite craftsmanship and Ovni does not try to compete on luxury feel. The emphasis has been on practicality, keeping costs down, while still giving a timber feel inside and a pleasant environment. For me the quality is easily sufficient, and things just work.

Climate: I cannot speak for the X-38 here, but doubt that the Ovni can be beat for interior climate. It is so dry and condensation free that it surprises me every time. Left for months in winter without heating it is drier when I return than when I left it. This is due to insulation, good ventilation through dorades, not to forget a deck and cabin that is hermetically sealed from water - all welded deck fittings and no through-hull bolts.

Practical details: Once you've had a strong targa like mine, you're spoilt. Every day you sling a rope around it for some purpose, lower a dinghy - or as the kids of a friend: dive from it! Installations go there - antennae, wind genny, a radar, EPIRB. A bosun's hook tucks in.

Overall: I am impressed with all X-Yachts. This is very individual, but if I should have a reservation about them (and all of their type) it is that they give you some extra performance but not enough. If your focus is regatta, they fit right in. If you enjoy fast sailing, why not go all out and really notice the speed?

The Ovni is adequate and can be fun; a friend recorded a max of 11,6 knots on his maiden voyage in a 365. I count averages of 5-6 knots long distance and become very impatient if it drops below 5 knots. 9 knots downwind on Genoa goes well, and a Gennaker fills in the gap. In most conditions you're talking 1-2 knots more in X-38, but in heavy seas probably less. Sometimes when we judge sailboats, we rely too much on optimal wind, and they are after all not the rule. You spend a lot of time out there...
 

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Discussion Starter · #540 ·
More novelties:
J-boats have a good name in the industry, and they now embrace lifting keels. The J95 (pictured below) was already available with a lifting keel and earned a Boat of the Year Award, and now the J109 can be had under the name J108 with a lifting keel - or a "pivoting centreboard", in J-Boats terminology. Keel down gives the same 7ft keel depth as J109, but withdrawn it can sail in 4ft. Yes, they claim it can sail with the keel up.
...
I have seen that one at the Paris boat show. It has a very well made interior with good quality overall and it is a very nice boat with an interesting concept, but I doubt they are going to be a success. They would not directly appeal to the more oriented racing sailors and at that price!!!! ...You could get a much bigger and faster performance cruising boat.

Regards

Paulo
 
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