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PCP, you're right. My point is that downwind you're going to be seeing a lot of cordage sweeping across the cockpit. At the tiller you have the main sheet behind you which is tricky to manage even if it does bring you closer to the genoa winches for single handing. I'd have to see in real life how it works but I would have preferred a more recessed main traveler to creat a bit more breathing room from the tiller and crew on gybes.

Could be a good setup for double handing - someone behind the main traveler taking care of the main and the tiller / genoa/asym by the same person.
 

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Discussion Starter #42 (Edited)
Rm 1350

Yes they have a new 13.50.

That's a really big and fast boat. The boat has won, recently, on the Italian boat magazine "Vela", a boat test to chose the best fast cruiser.

The boat was test sailed and compared with the: Vismara 44, Salona 44, Dufour 45, First 45, Elan 450, Grand Soleil 46 and Hanse 47.

As you know Fora Marin is a small manufacturer and the RM 1350 was compared to boats from big manufacturers (that give a lot more publicity to the magazine), some of them Italian, with new and very good boats (Vismara 44 and Grand Soleil 46). They really have to love the RM to have considered it the best:D

The basic price of the boat is around 280 000 euros, but for a well equipped boat you will spend 360 000 euros.

Are you sure that the 1200 is not big enough for you? The boat seems bigger than its size, has big tankage and a very good interior (That's my wife's preferred boat). That's the one I am interested in;)

RM YACHTS | RM 1350



Regards

Paulo



 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
Rm 1200

Absolutely Gorgeous!
12m more than enough boat for me, but not for the Admiral.
Anyway, recent financial set backs mean they're all out of my financial reach anyway. :(
Nemier,

The RM 1200 is not a regular 40fter. I and my wife are looking for a 42, 44ft boat. At least it is what she wants. But the boat she likes most (the interior) is the RM 1200 and she will be happy with one.

If you put your wife inside one of these, I doubt she would not be satisfied. The notion of space is great, with a lot of outside views.

Take a look at the interior:

Visite 360°

RM YACHTS | RM 1200

And you know, with a smaller boat there are a lot of smaller bills:D

You can have one from 2003/4 for around 220 000 euros. I know that it is expensive for a 6 year old boat, but they have a very high resale value and there are more sailors looking for one than boats available:eek: . They normally come with a very high standard of equipment (ocean ready).

Come to the next Paris boat show, and we can have a beer.:)

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #44 (Edited)
RM 1200, JPK 110, Opium 39

I have been in France to test and see some sailboats.

I have sail tested the Opium 39, the RM1200 and I have been in the JPK shipyard, to see the JPK 110 and to have a talk with the builder (that is also a solo racer).

Wauquiez - Les Bateaux Lumière

RM YACHTS | RM 1200

JPK

I was impressed with the Opium 39 speed, not so much with the RM1200 (but my wife loved the boat) and very impressed with the JPK 110.

The boat is all infusion built and the builder really knows what he is doing. As I have said, as a solo sailor he is very experienced (won with one of its boats the Transquadra) and so, he really knows how to adapt the boat to solo sailing. He also will be glad to adapt the boat to my cruising needs. He had already done that sucessfully to some costumers that are very happy with their boats.

The boat is a 37ft and has the speed potential of regular 40ft cruiser-racer and costs 70000 euros less than the Opium 39. It is also a very safe boat and I believe, a comfortable boat, especially adapted to go upwind.

I am very interested by this one. I will test sail it, when there is a boat available and I will design some interior mods, to see if they are feasible. My wife wants more water (all the water works as ballast and can be moved from one side to the other) and I believe that there is space for more 180 L (90 on each side). No water (at least 300 L), no boat:D

For the next six moths I will have a lot of work ahead, so I will not post frequentlly, but if any of you wish to know more about any of these boats I will try to find time.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
Opium 39

I'm thinking the Opium, at least then, if you are stuck in the middle of now where, no wind, you can smoke part of the boat for a buzz!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher
Marty,
Actually I find the Opium 39 a good looking boat.



About the boat and its speed potential I think you would like to read this boat test:

http://www.wauquiez.com/presse/opium-39/pdf/YACHT-JANV-2010-FR.pdf

The Translation is really bad. This is the translation of a test by the Doitch magazine "Yacht". "Yacht" is in my opinion probably the best sailing boat magazine (and I know a lot of them) and they don't like particularly French boats. They normally like X-Yacht, Arcona, Luffe, Finngulf, Swan and the like. I believe that I never heard them say so well about a French boat.:D

Look at the wind speed and the boat speed. I have sailed the same boat (the one in the photo) with about the same wind and I can tell you that those numbers are for real. The boat sails not far away from wind speed.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
Allures 45

Hey Guys, take a look at this boat, it is a beautiful one. Look also at the very nice interior (amenagements):

Allures 45 - Allures Yachting

This is not an especially fast boat. It is a pure long range cruising boat, the kind the French prefer: An aluminum Centerboarder.

The Allures 44 was already, probably, the best midsized aluminum, center boarder. It was not ugly, but this one, the new 45, is a beauty….. and should be a relatively fast cruising boat. Probably one of the fastest among this kind of boat.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Wow....

Ok, I've been away from the forums for a while and just recently stumbled on this thread and am absolutely stunned at what's available in terms of these smaller yards.

Being in Canada, my knowledge of the European boats is fairly limited to the big names and to be honest, I hadn't even considered any of the "Racer/Cruisers" until I got a look at the POGO 12.50. WOW !! My jaw dropped !!

I curse you...I mean I was all happy day dreaming about a new HR 37 or 43 but now I've got POGO, Opium & JPK on my mind...Trying to figure out a way to sell the idea of a go-fast boat with a minimalist interior as being better for our sailing plans. Maybe I can highlight the lower maintenance costs & time due to less varnished wood. Quicker trips between destinations with cold beer. Less cooking cause we can't carry as much fresh produce.

Seriously though, this has opened up a whole new avenue of thought for me. Thanks for the introduction.

SRW
 

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Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
Olea 44

Glad to share.

If you have the money for an Halberg Rassy, perhaps you can dream with the Oléa 44 (it is not as expensive as a HS) and has better interiors compared with the Pogo. This boat made recently quite an impact in France and put a lot of guys dreaming with distant shores and really fast cruising. This one is quite an animal:D



It is a Pierre Rolland design and, like the Pogo 12.50 is a civilized class 40.

http://www.olea-composite.com/Download/Olea44%20Documentation.pdf

www.rolland-archi.com

Voiles et Voiliers : Croisière - Olea 44 (Olea Composite/Pierre Rolland)

Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Les nouveautés du Grand Pavois 2009 : Oléa 44, la grande croisière en biquille

Regards

paulo
 

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Glad to share.

If you have the money for an Halberg Rassy, perhaps you can dream with the Oléa 44 (it is not as expensive as a HS) and has better interiors compared with the Pogo.
Well, that's the thing. At first glance I thought that the POGO's interior was spartan and bare but then I had a second look at the photos on their website. After a while I grew fond of it. I imagine that the interior would be simple to maintain and clean (sponge & water). The white bulkheads and flooring look nice with the few wooden accents and the interior looks very functional (reminiscent of Japanese architecture). Plus in the heat of the tropics, I imagine that the white would have a "cooling" effect both physically and psychologically.

My one concern with the overall interior of any of the Racer/Cruisers is the apparent lack of insulation on the hull and the headliner on the cabin top. This would likely have an impact on regulating the interior temperature (hot or cold) and would not absorb any of the hull noise underway.

Now if only I could reassure myself that these types of vessels are indeed safe and comfortable enough for live aboard cruising. I've got numerous questions & concerns that have arisen when considering one of these.
1. Steerage at low speed because of the smaller rudder size
2. The obvious limitations on both water and fuel tankage
3. Load carrying capacity, especially in light of their light displacement
4. Provision for anchoring (a locker, spare anchor, windlass, can you carry chain ?)
5. Bimini, I need some kind of sun protection in the cockpit ?
6. Dodger, or do I live in foul weather gear on passage ?
7. Storage for a dinghy & outboard ?

Well, these are questions that I just posed to POGO in an email today and we'll see what they respond with. Maybe I'm being too North American and demanding too much. I mean I love the idea of these vessels, the speed and fun that they would be. I don't mind the "simple" accommodations and in fact almost welcome them. I like the lines and particularly like the idea of the swing keel which would be handy for beaching or at least getting closer to shore but the questions above have me wondering.

SRW
 

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Discussion Starter #52 (Edited)
Rustler

PCP,
..Have you seen a Rustler 44 Rustler 44 on the European boat show circuit ?
Bernd
No. I believe that you can only see them at Southampton (or London) boat show and I never went to that one.

But I know Rustler, the last of the traditional British boats. They are made with great care, hand made and very expensive. The quality is great, but I found the design a bit dated. They are great boats, seaworthy and reseonably fast, for medium displacement boats.

Rustler 44

I really love the Ruster 26. It's a classic. Look at the way they work. It is not surprising they are expensive. Take a look at the video:
Rustler 24

If you are interested in decksaloons, I find the new Southerlies (49, 46 and 42) and the new Regina (35 and 40) better designed. Never saw a Regina (for that you have to go to sweeden), but I saw several Southerlies and they are great sailing boats, very well made.

REGINA 40, Regina af Vindö Yachts (Sweden)
Southerly

Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
Pogo 10.50

Well, that's the thing. At first glance I thought that the POGO's interior was spartan and bare but then I had a second look at the photos on their website. After a while I grew fond of it. I imagine that the interior would be simple to maintain and clean (sponge & water). The white bulkheads and flooring look nice with the few wooden accents and the interior looks very functional (reminiscent of Japanese architecture). Plus in the heat of the tropics, I imagine that the white would have a "cooling" effect both physically and psychologically.

My one concern with the overall interior of any of the Racer/Cruisers is the apparent lack of insulation on the hull and the headliner on the cabin top. This would likely have an impact on regulating the interior temperature (hot or cold) and would not absorb any of the hull noise underway.

Now if only I could reassure myself that these types of vessels are indeed safe and comfortable enough for live aboard cruising. I've got numerous questions & concerns that have arisen when considering one of these.
1. Steerage at low speed because of the smaller rudder size
2. The obvious limitations on both water and fuel tankage
3. Load carrying capacity, especially in light of their light displacement
4. Provision for anchoring (a locker, spare anchor, windlass, can you carry chain ?)
5. Bimini, I need some kind of sun protection in the cockpit ?
6. Dodger, or do I live in foul weather gear on passage ?
7. Storage for a dinghy & outboard ?

Well, these are questions that I just posed to POGO in an email today and we'll see what they respond with. Maybe I'm being too North American and demanding too much. I mean I love the idea of these vessels, the speed and fun that they would be. I don't mind the "simple" accommodations and in fact almost welcome them. I like the lines and particularly like the idea of the swing keel which would be handy for beaching or at least getting closer to shore but the questions above have me wondering.

SRW
Sean, about the steerage at low speed, that would not be a problem. The boat has twin rudders and the area is equivalent to a big single ruder. You will not have the effect of the engine (water moved by propeller) on the rudder, but with most sail drives the effect is already very small.

About the water tankage, that is not a problem, the boat has big water ballast tanks and you can use that water for drinking.

About the fuel tanks, I believe you can have a bit more, but for sailing you don't need it. That boat sails at almost wind speed. Any wind will give you a decent speed.

Now, make no mistake, that is a Ferrari. Many would think that a Ferrari is a racing car and not the ideal car for touring. The boat comes from a line of Solo Ocean racers, so it is designed to cross oceans and even to circumnavigate. The question is: Do you want to travel on a Ferrari? I mean the way you would travel in a Ferrari?

The boat would not be as comfortable as a Volvo (not by far), but would provide you with an incredible and safe ride. The boat is big but is not made to carry much weight, so, as in a Ferrari, you would have to travel light. I would say that this boat implies a kind of lifestyle.

Me, I am used. I don't tour on a Ferrari (it wastes too much fuel:rolleyes: ), but I chose to tour on a very small and fast roadster (and I tour a lot). The Pogo is in what concerns boats the equivalent to my touring car. It is what I want and what I like, as a car and as a boat.

For me, the ride is as important (or more) than the places, otherwise I would be travelling by airplane. But I am a funny guy:D , some would say I am mad.

Better test sail that boat, even charter one for a while, to be sure. On this thread there is one Guy that is thinking in buying a Pogo 10.5. Perhaps you can join forces for a test sail. If you do that, tell me, I will be also interested.

Regards

Paulo
 

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Found out this morning, the 409 is being made in Marion South Carolina at the Beneteau US Eastcoast plant, and will be at the Sept Annapolis show for the fall BOTY shows. Jeanneau has had some 33/36 and 39's built back there, and are showing up price wise, on par with the next sized smaller built in France. a savings of about 15K US$ on shipping across the pond. A smart move on GB to do this, keep workers at that plant working too!

Have not heard or seen news about other sizes in the line, but looks like a small shift back to more sporty faster boats is in order. Good news for those that like the Jeanneau line.

Marty
 

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Paulo,

I agree that the POGO; or any of the other racers mentioned; would be a different approach to sailing and cruising. The ride itself would definitely fall into the Ferrari category. Fast, bumpy, exhilarating and I suspect very wet as opposed to the more sedate heavier displacement vessels we're more familiar with. And yes, like you, I think I am somewhat mad for even considering something like a POGO as a possible alternative to a more traditional cruising vessel. Obviously there would be compromises to endure but I'm beginning to think that they may be worth it. Plus, the prices advertised make them all the more attractive.
 

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Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
Luffe 43Ds

I have posted about this boat on another thread, but the truth is that I think that he deserves to be also on this one, as an interesting boat:)




This is a Luffe 43Ds and was for severall years my dream boat. It is not anymore becausen I refuse to have dreams that cannot be true, one day.:D

Before the crisis I thought that eventually I could have the means to buy one, so I have visited the shipyard, talked with the owner. They were building one, but they had not one available for test sailing, so I test sailed another luffe (the boat sailed wonderfully).



I liked everything, the boat, the shipyard, Oluf Jørgensen and the love of perfection that they put in all their work.

I don’t even think that the boat is expensive, if we compare it with for instance X-Yachts. And I say X yachts, because they are both Danish boats( the Luffe has a local nick name: X-eater:D ) .

The Luffe are very fast cruiser racers, the owner of the shipyard is a racer that 30 years ago made its own racing boat (a 37) . He made Wood Dragons at that time. The boat was so good that he started to build cruiser racers, first for friends then for a small market. He still races and have its own Luffe

Here you can see Oluf Jorgensen racing one of its boats on a major Nordic race (how many owners and designers of sailboats are active racers, or sailors?)



The 43Ds was borne by the desire that an old client (and an old sailor) had to travel extensively. This old racer wanted to travel, but have no desire to sail a slow or boring boat and asked Oluf Jorgensen to adapt a 43 cruiser-racer for extensive bluewater cruising, easy anf fast sailing and the result was that boat.




The 43Ds can be equipped with a self-taking front sail and, as the one on the picture and a top class Danish furler boom. The boat has at least an electric winch (for the furler boom). The boat is light, but strong, with an interior steel frame that support and distribute the rig and keel loads.



Regards

Paulo
 

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Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
Tiller / Wheel

Gents,
twin wheel, single wheel, or tiller...what does your next boat need?
I love a tiller on a largish boat (37' - 44')
I saw a few last season in the San Juan's, most likely custom built composite jobbies, but real easy on the eye...
The wheel has substituted the tiller on relatively small and light boats for comercial reasons. Consumers associate a wheel with a big boat and they want to have a boat that looks like a big boat:D

The tiller is simpler, cheaper, more direct and give you a better boat feeling.

Many of the boats on this thread, specially the sporty ones made by small shipyards, come originally with a tiller, and the wheel comes as an (expensive) option. They ended up selling more boats with a wheel than with a rudder.

For example, the Luffe 43, The Opium 39, the JPK and even the fast cruiser RM1200, all come originally with a tiller. The wheel is an option.

On the Opium 39, the running rigging makes not much sense (position of the winches) if you have a wheel. They are too much forward to be reached from the wheel (and this boat is originally designed as a solo boat). But that position makes sense with a tiller, cause the steering position is a lot more forward than the one on the wheel.

Regards

Paulo
 

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My preference is a tiller. If my next vessel is sold with a wheel, I'll consider the expense of converting to a tiller, such is the strength of my desire for a tiller. However, the twin wheels are a different breed altogether, and this appeals to me. Therefore my personal preference is:
1. tiller
2. twin wheel
3. single wheel, (& as Cesar Milan says)...in that order.
(everybody) What's Your personal preference)?
 

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Copy of Post from $100,000 Circumnavigator.

Paulo...sorry about the spelling....payback for calling me a cat....:p...I was actually going to ask you how come a Portuguese ended up with an Italian name......whoops.....Paulo it is. :)

Man that Luffe is one sexy beast. It really is a DS41, lengthened, updated and with what looks like absolutely awesome build quality. Nice to see the top loading (as well as front) refrigeration. American DS41s usually have a top loader but not the European. Galley layout on the Luffe is revised, they have done away with that silly controller at the chart table and ditched the odd anchor stowage. All for the good. Not sure about that stool at the bottom of the companionway but that is pretty simple to resolve and a very minor issue.

Show me where to sign. :eek:

Ah if only.

I have no idea what the Luffe would be worth but I suspect more than I am. There are none available used on Yachtworld.

I reckon I would still be happy with a Dehler but yes the Luffe does go one better and on the basis of the web site it has gone straight to number one on the Wombat list of desirable holes in the water.

Thanks for the links....I think....then again maybe I was better off when I didn't know this thing existed.....



<o>
</o>
This was my reply to Paulo re the Luffe 43.

I'm with Paulo on this one....I'd love this baby to be my dream angel but reality is I am never going to be able to afford even a used one. For that reason I am staying faithful to my smaller less expensive piece of fluff...the Dehler DS41. Older, slower, smaller but at least she comes close to my budget.
 

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My preference is a tiller. If my next vessel is sold with a wheel, I'll consider the expense of converting to a tiller, such is the strength of my desire for a tiller. However, the twin wheels are a different breed altogether, and this appeals to me. Therefore my personal preference is:
1. tiller
2. twin wheel
3. single wheel, (& as Cesar Milan says)...in that order.
(everybody) What's Your personal preference)?
I used to be a single wheeler but now not overly concerned which way I go. I've sailed the VDS34 in both tiller and wheel variations and if I had my choice there, I'd go tiller (and also fractional rather than masthead rig, which is another discussion altogether). However the choice to go tiller would be more to do with freeing up space in the quarter berth which on the Womboat is cluttered up with steering gear.

Twin wheels are cool. The only boat with twins I've ever sailed was Giulietta. Certainly preferable to one big wheel I reckon.

As an aside.....Sailing on Giulietta was a lot of fun and the fastest keel boat I've ever sailed on but I'd not choose such a design as my long term cruiser. Paulo spoke about driving a Ferrari v a Volvo....as long as the Volvo is a new one and not like the old 245 I had once :eek:, yes I agree....:). Then again even the 245 was pretty good on the open road, just a bit sluggish around town. To be frank crossing oceans at 15 plus knots does not have all that much appeal if only because should you hit something at that speed something is going to get very badly damaged. As a day sailor maybe its a different story.

ps (edit)....Absurdly expensive even when compared to the Luffe but i've always felt these things were pretty cool.....

2008 K&M Yachtbuilders Bestewind Bestewind 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



(thats big sister btw...Bestevaer 53)

and can anyone identify this ?

 
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