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Discussion Starter #6,503 (Edited)
Guillaume Verdier has pushed designs quite far away, he did the JP54
In the case of the Comance it is not a matter of pushing the design faraway or not: It is an oceanic race boat. It will work as previewed...or not, meaning the design is right or not.

If it proves to be the fastest boat on Ocean races, namely transats, in very little time all the boats made to win will be like that.

In this case it will not be a design pushed to a limit but just the way contemporary design proves more effective to attain a given goal: The fastest monohull on a Transat and possibly also on the Transpac.

Then it will be the norm and Verdier just the designer that pointed the way....If not, well, it will just be a design pushed to the limits...too pushed to be effective.

Time will tell.

http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.pt/
 

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Re: Monohulls versus Multihulls

Sure multihulls are great and I talked here about all the multihulls that are mentioned on that article and much more but they have some big disadvantages:

The first big one is the price: For having an offshore capable multihull able for crossing oceans with a big safety margin you need a big one, like the ones that are mentioned. The same level of seaworthiness can be obtained with a much smaller monohull. Besides size for size a multihull is substantially more expensive.

The second disadvantage are costs of maintenance and marina: Multihulls pay more 50 to 100% on the marinas or on the hard and the cost of hauling out is superior also. Today with the costs of marinas, that's a lot of money.

The third is that a multihull in bad weather is more uncomfortable that a sailing boat of the same size.

The fourth is that a monohul has a better performance upwind. The difference would not be very big regarding a multihull with movable lateral foils but on most cruising cats that's a very big difference, specially if we consider a performance cruiser. The biggest difference regarding a monohull will be downwind sailing, but only if the multihull is a light one and not a Lagoon type that are by far the more abundant and the less expensive. Performance multihulls, like the ones that are referred on that article are much more expensive than the lagoon type.

Regarding comparative performance you can have a look at the ARC:

This year there was lots of cats and you can see they are not doing better than similarly sized monohulls and that's an unfair comparison because price for price you would have a much bigger monohull that would not cost more to you in marina and maintenance costs.

That's true that this year was not properly a normal one in what regards trade winds, that have not been constant, but that's what I am saying: For sailing on the trade winds they are great, for being also a good one upwind, only some very special and expensive ones and even so there are some of those on the transat and the performance has not been great.

Take as example the Gunboat 62 that was beaten by a Marten 49, an Ocean Explorer 60 that was beaten by a X50 and an Oyster 655, a Catana 58 that are been beaten by the X50, by a Grand Soleil 56, a Discovery 55, a Gunfleet 58, a Oyster 48 and a Pogo 12.50. These multihulls are the fastest of the fleet and are fast cats. There are many more behind, some really big ones.

Now, don't take me wrong, if I could afford a 50ft trimaran, or even a 40ft one with retractile amas, not to pay a fortune on the marina and to have a decent interior space, probably I would have one but the only one on the market is an old and relatively slow one (a Dragonfly). The 35 Dragonfly would suit me fine if they upgraded it to 40ft, but the 35ft costs already around 450 000 euros. I wonder how much would cost a 40ft? Maybe 600 000? With that kind of money you can buy a Pogo 50 or any other very fast 50ft monohull and still have money left to enjoy cruising.

In fact most cats you see around are slow cruising cats that are not faster than a performance cruiser of the same size, quite the opposite and even those are a lot more expensive than performance cruisers, size by size. Of course they offer a much bigger interior space, but then we are not talking about performance but about living comfort and interior space.

Regards

Paulo
I'm not sure if you know how to read the race results, but the Gunboat was not beaten by the Marten 49. We took 5th across the line, behind Caro (wicked boat), a Volvo 70, a Southern Wind 72, and a maxi. We beat every monohull smaller, we beat every other cat by a huge margin. I think the performance of a Gunboat is remarkable. We had the most comfortable passage in the fleet with 6 cabins, plenty of privacy. We had a full Thanksgiving, and we didn't motor at all. You have an axe to grind, but you should base your argument on fact, especially when you are using false facts to base your argument. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In this case yours is wrong.

The rule of thumb (and evidence bears this out) is that a Gunboat is as fast as a similarly sized grand prix monohull (of the same vintage) or as fast as a performance cruiser (of the same vintage) that is 1.5 times the size. And a Gunboat will be FAR more comfortable than either platform. (granted, that last comment is subjective, but...)
 

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Discussion Starter #6,505 (Edited)
Re: Monohulls versus Multihulls

I'm not sure if you know how to read the race results, but the Gunboat was not beaten by the Marten 49. We took 5th across the line, behind Caro (wicked boat), a Volvo 70, a Southern Wind 72, and a maxi. We beat every monohull smaller, we beat every other cat by a huge margin. I think the performance of a Gunboat is remarkable. We had the most comfortable passage in the fleet with 6 cabins, plenty of privacy. We had a full Thanksgiving, and we didn't motor at all. You have an axe to grind, but you should base your argument on fact, especially when you are using false facts to base your argument. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In this case yours is wrong.

The rule of thumb (and evidence bears this out) is that a Gunboat is as fast as a similarly sized grand prix monohull (of the same vintage) or as fast as a performance cruiser (of the same vintage) that is 1.5 times the size. And a Gunboat will be FAR more comfortable than either platform. (granted, that last comment is subjective, but...)
Off course you are right in what concerns the Marten 49,a much smaller boat. If you had read the following of the 2013 ARC on this thread you would have seen that previously I stated it right. Obviously I wanted to say not a Martin 49 but a Knierim 65, a monohull performance cruiser of about the same size that beat the Gunboat 62 by almost 5days!!!

In 2003 the performance of the Gunboat 62 (or the other cats) did not appear to me nothing special. Regarding cats I was more impressed by the performance of a Lagoon 560, a much slower and smaller condocat that made in my opinion a much more remarkable passage, doing it on only more 2 days and 5 hours.

If we compare the almost 5 days that the Gunboat 62 lost to the to the Knierim 65 with the 2 days 5 hours that the Lagoon 56 lost to the Gunboat or even with the 10 hours that the much smaller Marten 49 lost for the Gunboat, it is not with the Gunboat performance that I am impressed with.

I have nothing against cats and this year Philocat 44ft, a small cat with a small crew (only 4, one of them not a sailor) made on this year's ARC an absolutely remarkable passage finishing among the first very close to a very fast and well sailed Felci 61. It looks to me a much better performance than the one of the Gunboat last year, considering the differences in sizes.

 

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Sadly for us all Paulo has seemingly decamped to his own wee world where Interesting Sailboats lives on. He is missed, he will be missed, his contribution was awesome.

That he felt hounded from his own thread (yes I know, no one owns a thread) is sad.

Anywho .... I stumbled across this .... manages to look pretty much cutting edge yet has a lovely, vaguely traditional feel to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxmvTf6exPI

Shipman 63 Gallery - Shipman

I think the pics on the website are in Flash or somesuch cos I cannot link directly to images. Sorry about that. Paulo is a lot better at this than i am.
 

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Discussion Starter #6,507 (Edited)
Sadly for us all Paulo has seemingly decamped to his own wee world where Interesting Sailboats lives on. He is missed, he will be missed, his contribution was awesome.

That he felt hounded from his own thread (yes I know, no one owns a thread) is sad.

Anywho .... I stumbled across this .... manages to look pretty much cutting edge yet has a lovely, vaguley traditional feel to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxmvTf6exPI

Shipman 63 Gallery - Shipman

I think the pics on the website are in Flash or somesuch cos I cannot link directly to images. Sorry about that. Paulo is a lot better at this than i am.
HI Andrews!. The fact that I am not posting here new boats does not mean that I don't enjoy participating on discussions about interesting boats, specially with nice people:)

On this thread me and G1000 talked several times about Shipman yachts:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/788812-post1550.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/789091-post1552.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/789132-post1553.html

Since G1000 post more Shipman were made, big ones, and they are now cruising and racing the oceans. The Shipman even if expensive is one of the yachts with a better quality/price/performance ratio.

Made entirely in carbon they are not only a long range cruisers as occasional racers. They are designed to be short crewed following Open 60's developments in hull and rig design, in what concerns easiness to tame sail power and have a very stable sailing platform.

I had always said that I was not convinced that in what regards normal long range sailing conditions, the ones that we find on the trade winds, The type of Sundeer's hull was the more indicated for performance short handed cruising (if it was the Open 60 would be narrow boats).

I had never found comparative information that sustained that out of theory, till I found out that a Shipman 63 had done one ARC world with two Sundeer 60. Well, the Shipman was a bit longer but the Sundeer were two and none of them was able to beat the Shipman on any of the several legs of the ARC and sometimes the Shipman finished several days ahead both of them.

A very nice boat the Shipman 63, luxurious interior mixed with great sailing and seaworthiness, my kind of boat....if I was a millionaire:D

Well, this one is nicer than the 63:

 

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I just stumbled across the Shipman vid on YouTube. Didn't remember they had already been discussed. Me I just thought she looked rather pretty yet a thoroughly modern miss.

Even the smallest Shipman is way to much boat for me or my wallet but one can dream can't one ?
 

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Oh well, every thread must run its course. Unfortunate but there you go. I'm not prepared to let someone else's selfish agenda bugger it up any further.
 

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An addenda to my previous post ..... thanks to Paulo for the thread. An amazing amount of work went into it with some incredible boats and info on them.

We'll leave it up to Paulo as to whether he wants to start a new thread or if he so desires to have this one re-opened. His choice.
 
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