[GT6Racer]

Hello all,
I am an experienced dinghy sailor (Enterprise, Wayfarer etc..),from the UK now living in Michigan. I want to teach my two boys (13,16) to sail on Lake Erie near Monroe Mi, but not interested in joining a club at this time. I will trailer the boat to launch, and will need to use a small motor to get out to the lake. I have done quite a bit of research and narrowed down to either an Interlake or a Flying Scot as boats that are built for the lake. As we'll be sailing alone and not part of a flotilla, I'd like a boat that is stable enough that we won't be swimming unless we intend to, but is still fun to hike out on. It seems to me that the Scot is the better choice, but would appreciate any advice.
Is either of these boats recommended for lone sailing ( one boat, not singlehanded ) on the choppy Lake Erie ?
Is so which is the better choice ?
Of course, we'd plan for communication in case we hit trouble, and have appropriate safety gear.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Stumble]

New or used, budget?


Frankly I wouldn't recommend either of these. I don't know anything about the interlake except that it is a 100 year old class (and thus ancient design), and the flying Scott is a terrible boat compared to more modern hulls.

If you are dead set on a Scott wait until at least January. There is going to be a flood of them on the US market when the GYA chooses a new boat and all they yacht clubs put their Scott's on the market.

 

[GT6Racer]

Greg, sorry should have said - not looking to spend a fortune until I see how the boys take to it. Maybe 3-5k. I liked the idea of these boats due to their length for the choppy waters, in as much as they were designed for it ( albeit a long long time ago !)
What would you suggest ? I'd prefer a monohull for this first experience. Thanks for the tip if I do decide to go the Scot route..

 

[Stumble]

Andrew,

There are a lot, probably hundreds of possible boats in this size and price range. Trying to hit that price point on a 18-20' boat is going to be somewhat location dependent since it doesn't make any sense to drive 1000 miles to grab something cheap so you are somewhat dependent on local boats. And the size requirement well... Two kids and an adult is one issue, two adults and a kid is another, and finally three adults is again a seperate issue.

My first thought would be one of the RS line of boats (the 400 particularly) but I don't think you can find a three person boat in your price range. You can probably find something like a Laser 2000 for what you are looking to spend. A Vanguard Nomad you might be able to grab if you buy it just before the winter...

Pretty much any of these are better, faster, safer, ect.

Again my experience is with the Scott, but I can't say enough how much I dislike them (full disclosure I have been instrumental in pushing the GYA in getting rid of the things). They are heavy, slow, hard to rig, prone to rigging failure, and are not self baling. Once they get they broach they can't self rescue (though they won't sink at least). The one upside to the Scott I guess is they have been building them for 60 years and there are a lot of cheap ones out there.

 

[Chas H]

If I were me I'd add a Lightning to the top of the list.

LIGHTNING sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

http://lightningclass.org/marketplace/classifieds/index.asp

-CH

 

[chrissailorman]

Check out the O Day mariner...19 foot length, stable roomy enough for three. Easy to rig and trailer.

 

[krisscross]

I would chose a dinghy with a very wide beam and decent keel for stability, or a catamaran. Both choices you list are rather narrow designs with a lot of sail area. Fast, but not very easy to sail nor very stable.

 

[Multihullgirl]

Greg,

I'd be damn surprised if the GYA actually does choose a new boat....

 

[Stumble]

Greg,

I'd be damn surprised if the GYA actually does choose a new boat....

They pretty much have to. The resolutions already passed require a new boat to be selected though the commodores still have to vote on which one. The vote on which boat is supposed to happen at the winter meetings, so December/January. But since we are negotiating with some builders to have right of first refusal on molds if they close up shop it could get complicated.

My money...

1) VX OD
2) Seascape 19
3) Viper 640
4) K6

At this point though the VX is by far the leader, and Bennet has been incredible to work with so I don't see it changing. Sadly these are all more expensive than this thread allows.

 

[Anchorbend]

I would also suggest looking at the Lightning. Great multiuse boat. Another boat within your budget is the Highlander. Very roomy, fun boat. Either of these boats are well suited and vert popular on Lake Erie.

 

[GT6Racer]

Thanks for all the replies !
Greg, I had noticed that your opinion was atypical, the most common sentiment is that it is a decent all rounder. If I was racing I'd probably be thinking similarly.
The difficulty to right is a big concern. My research indicates that the boat can capsize and recover with little water on board, but I was a little sceptical of how that might be under other conditions than still water. Having had a previous issue whereby my mast became stuck in mud, I'm not beyond adding a little mast flotation. ( a former boat of mine was fondly christened "HMS Ballcock" due to my selection of floater ). The need to be pulled back afloat is a concern - as I mentioned I will not be in a flotilla, and so no tow boat will be there to pull me back.
WRT to the comments regarding the lightening, but was put off by the complexity of the mast setting as I'll always be trailering. I will have the boys to help the physical part, but the time taken would be a concern. If I'm going by bad information please correct me.
I hadn't considered the O'Day - I'll take a look..

 

[nolatom]

Not so fast.

What's wrong with the Interlake? Who cares how old the design is, they sail nicely, better upwind than Scots.

 

[Barquito]

Here is an Interlake (I think) being capsized and recovered (later in the video). It comes up with a lot of water that can be bailed out. However, if you are in a good chop and wind, you may get knocked down again before you can bail enough water out. I would look for a boat that will come up a little more dry.

 

[Stumble]

I really like Lightnings and raced them one design for years. The issue I have with recommending them is that there are a lot of old wooden ones around and if you happen to snag one... Well they will either need a lot of ongoing maintenance or a lot of initial work to bring them up to spec. Compared to a root molded boat or a core less fiberglass there are just a lot of unknowns.

As for righting a Scott... They can be righted, but they most often right with the deck underwater. So no matter how fast you bail more water will flood in even faster. The primary flotation is in the aft so they tend to float a little bow down, aft up, and even if you have a tow available will often nose down.

As for sailing characteristics...
Do a google search for a vx one and a Scott. While on the used market they are worlds different in price new they are pretty close to the same price. With the primary price difference being the VX have a carbon fiber mast.

 

[GT6Racer]

The righting is an issue for me. I do want a boat that's fairly stable, and by all accounts tipping a Scot is hard to do, but should it happen I need to be able to recover. Lake Erie gets choppy, and even on a nice day the Scot is going to fill up over the seat molding if on its side. As a result I'm back researching on the 'net, and have come across the Buccaneer 18. Seems to be available at reasonable prices, can be daysailed, but most notably has the enclosed hull. Any issues with this choice ?
Thanks for the help..

 

[Stumble]

The Buccaneer 18 much like the Scott isn't really capable of self rescue. Most of this type of boat (sit in vs sit on) boats from this era are the same. If the boat broaches the coming gets underwater and there is just no way to drain enough water fast enough to get them empty again. Add a relatively heavy boat in the first place and they float with just the crown of the deck above water and usually the transom ends.

The early ones also used spray foam in the hull to add flotation which is great when new, but if it has absorbed water can add hundreds of pounds to the boat. If you are looking at one tow it to a scale and weigh it. Much more than 500lbs and I would walk away. The newer boats (from Nickels) are really nicely done, but are more expensive.

A very comparable new boat is the Vanguard Nomad... But the Vanguard Nomad is a much better design.

It was pointed out to me in a PM that I am coming off a little negative in this thread, and I am sorry for that. I really hope you get something, almost anything just to be out on the water. But when I look at the newer designs on the market compared to a lot of these older boats the difference in ease of use is huge. While running a few major regattas I had the oportunity to sail a lot of the current crop of ~18' dinghys and there really is a huge difference in the ease of use in the modern designs and the older ones. Not just in speed and stability but also in the comfort of them. Things are layer out better, the gear is better, rudders are more balanced, ect... Very important stuff but not necessarily obvious on first look.

Depending on where you are I would also recommend getting in touch with the local yacht club or sailing clubs. Even if you don't join owning something that is raced locally is a good way to ensure a local pool of knowledge on whatever you get and it's quirks.

 

[CalebD]

I don't think you have been exactly "negative" councilor Rubin. You have strong feelings about the F Scott and have given well thought out replies to backup your assertions.
I know that the Lightning is an older design too and you say you have sailed them a bit so I am a little puzzled why this was not one of your possible boats for the OP?

I had a older Lightning (#10,xxx) for a few years and while it was rigged for racing I found it was not always necessary to use ALL the controls to sail the boat. Stepping the mast takes a bit of work but it was a fun sailor once set up. I doubt you would need a motor on a boat like this as it will sail in <2 knots of wind. Paddles would be more appropriate than an outboard engine.
You can find older Lightnings for sale here well below your stated price range:
Used Lightnings

 

[GT6Racer]

First, thanks for al the input, especially Greg. I don't find the comments at all negative. My posting was intended to ask opinions, and your quick and knowledeable replies are just as I am looking for.
I will look again at the lightning. They are sailed at my local club, but as I don't plan to race that hasn't been a big driver. However, such a purchase would keep that option open.

 

[GT6Racer]

Well, done some research. The Lightning site is a great place. It does look like this boat could be a good choice - thanks to those who lead me to it.
Now I'm looking at available boats. Given that I'm not planning national racing, are there any years/sail number it should avoid ? The Lightning site warns not to buy before 1990, and notes that the rigging was changed in 1986, and that newer boats have better recovery.
Are these significant things that I should be concerned about ?
I've found a nice 1984 Nickels that's near me and in my budget...

 

[Stumble]

I used to race Lightnings heavily and went to Nationals twice. I love the boat and thought about recommending it except for a few things...

1) the large racing class means most good boats go for a premium and since homebuilt boats are common in the older ones I have a problem recommending the class just because of the difficulty in ensuring exactly what boat you are looking at. There have also been a number of different manufacturers and rigs, some better or worse than others and all reasonably called Lightnings. So again you could get a great boat for a bargin from one seller and the next sail number is a wreck that was built by a high school shop class with parts from lowes.

2) they are very technical boats with finicky rigs. I don't know how much of this stuff you can reasonably take off without gimping the boat a lot. It may be fine, but I don't know.

3) good ones really aren't that cheap. At least compared to newer boats. A 2006 Nomad for instance can probably be snagged for about $6,000, the same asking price for a decent condition lightning. But when you compare the boats side by side... The Nomad is easier to sail, bigger cockpit, smaller centerboard trunk, ect. Not that the lightning design is bad, but designers have learned a bit in the last 80 years.

4) drums... These were the stupidest idea ever in boats and sadly both the Lightning and the Flying Scott suffer from the addiction. I think the Lightning got rid of them in newer (post 1986 boats).

As for age... ONLY get a post 1986 boat. Earlier boats were prone to turtling while newer ones while they will broach tend not to flip over. The other issue with 96' is that they changed the rig so good used sails from the racing fleet can be had, but only if your boat is the current version (again 86).

On the other hand if there was a good lightning nearby for a good price. Particularly with a decent class I would have to seriously consider it. Cheap used sails, local knowledge, spare parts, it does start to add up. And if you ever do decide to race (and you very well might) there is a class right down the road.