[loxxsail]

Hey Gang,

I was having a conversation with the fellow in the slip next to me the other day, and both of us were in agreement on this, and it got me to thinking, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts..

First a bit of context. I have a Columbia 39, which for my needs is fantastic. It does fairly well everything I need it to do, and I paid less than 20k for it. My slip neighbor has an islander 35. While he didn't exactly say what he paid for it, I'm guessing he's in the mid to high 20's on it. Both of us are quite satisfied with what we have, and our sailing experiences with these boats.

Our neighbor across the way has a Benateau 35. My guess is that he's well over 100, probably closer to 150 on what he paid for it. I've only peeked at it a bit, and while it does have a few nicer upgrades than my boat, It's not 100k nicer (in my opinion) than my boat if you catch my drift.

I freely admit that my Columbia 39 isn't the sexiest looking kid on the block, but (in my opinion) that's hardly worth the extra spend.

So this is my question. At what point, does blowing an extra 75 or 100k on a boat give you 75 or 100k more value? Because in looking at his more modern Benateau, I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps it's my amateurish skill set that don't allow me to see the value in the extra spend of his boat (and admittidly the owner didn't give me a full tour), but some of the more experienced people here can chime in and help me to understand at what price point the value increases exponentially (or if even does at all)?

I ask this, because I have always thought of my Columbia like a first car. It's great, and I'm learning tons on it, but when I move on to my next boat, I want to make sure that the money I spend on it is for the right reasons, and not just because well, it's a Mercedes and they're "supposed" to be expensive (please excuse the car reference, best analogy I could come up at the moment).

Thanks for all of your opinions, they're most appreciated!

 

[Skipper Jer]

Following, but I do have a few ideas on why the B or any newer boat is more money. Condition, condition and condition. Also newer boats are worth more for the same reason newer cars are worth more than older cars, well for the most part. Newer implies reliability, aesthetics, conveniences, and soundness. Some older boats have moisture issues in the deck core, rigging at the end of life, engine issues, sails bagged out, chain plates corroded, rudders saturated, ect. Yes all those items can be corrected and once corrected the bills will approach the newer boat price.

 

[SchockT]

Following, but I do have a few ideas on why the B or any newer boat is more money. Condition, condition and condition. Also newer boats are worth more for the same reason newer cars are worth more than older cars, well for the most part. Newer implies reliability, aesthetics, conveniences, and soundness. Some older boats have moisture issues in the deck core, rigging at the end of life, engine issues, sails bagged out, chain plates corroded, rudders saturated, ect. Yes all those items can be corrected and once corrected the bills will approach the newer boat price.

I would agree, and those are some of the considerations that we discussed when my wife and I made the decision to spend six figures on a much younger boat. The appeal of having a boat that doesn't have a long list of repairs and equipment upgrades needed is pretty strong. The way I see it you may get an old boat for a lot less money, but you will likely be spending a lot more money over the years to keep that boat up. After years of spending thousands of dollars on repairs you still have an old boat. I don't think there is a magic formula that will tell you what age used boat is the sweet spot in terms of initial purchase price vs maintenance and repair costs. I can tell you that it is really nice to have a boat that hasn't been through multiple owners and decades of sketch DIY repairs and upgrades to deal with. I even have complete and accurate electrical and plumbing schematics for the boat!

Aside from the higher maintenance costs and cosmetic wear and tear on an old boat there is the design differences between old boats and newer boats. Boat design has evolved in many ways over the past 40+ years. Modern boats do just about everything better than boats from the 60s and 70s. They are typically faster, easier to sail and much brighter and more spacious inside. The cockpits are larger and more ergonomic.

The difference between the OPs '70s era Columbia 39 and my 2011 39 footer are striking. We have far more living space than the columbia has in the same length. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if his neighbor's Beneteau 35 has more useful space than his 39.

I know a lot of people love their old boats, and many people are loyal to old designs. If that is the case, more power to them.



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[MoonBeamEstate]

Some people like RVs and some people like tents. Tents are more true to camping, cramped, cold or hot and buggy, been around forever. RVs are not really camping, but they are expensive, ugly in nature, well lite, modern and have all the comforts of home. So they cost more.

 

[JimsCAL]

Newer boats will have more annual depreciation. Older boats will require more maintenance and upgrades. Pick your poison.

 

[Don L]

nothing is "worth: anything till you sell and get the cash then you know

But I would say a boat is at it's sweet "value" point at about 10-15 years old. At that point it has taken its' biggest depreciation hit, is still is great condition, and has standard options installed.

 

[SanderO]

As soon as something like a boat or a car is owned and used it seem to lose a lot of its value... somewhat irrational at times.

For sure the value should reflect "wear and tear" (somehow). How much wear and tear is there on things like:
winches
spars
standing rigging
sails
upholstery
canvas
hardware
joinery
gelgoat
hatches & ports
wiring
plumbing
plumbing fixtures pumps
steering
engine
standing rigging
running rigging
ground tackle
electronics

For sure these and other parts are aging and "degrading" in varying degrees. For sure some things simply become "outdated" such as electronics. Surely all things undergo environmental "aging"

Designs don't "age" they simply become no longer fashionable or current... this applies to engineering and aesthetics.

For sure things are losing value at different rates... for multiple reasons.

How is the depreciated value "calculated"? I suspect it isn't really... rule of thumb and mostly what recent sales reveal.

Some say lots of "things" added to a boat don't even figure into the calculus.

++++

Yet we see that some things appreciate over time... such as art, or jewelry or "collectibles"... and this seems to be largely related to scarcity and "artistic value/input"

I suspect that some boats (like autos) have a "collectible" component to their value. Others which are / were more mass produced have no "collectible" element in their value. So it seems that perhaps high sticker priced mass produced boats will see a more rapid depreciation... while more one off boats will depreciate slower and hold their value.... and likely cost more per unit foot than mass produced boats.

 

[BarryL]

Hey,

I think this is an interesting topic. Since it's winter and I can't sail I can take some time to add my thoughts.

Some background: My current boat is a 2002 C&C 110 (36'). It's nice and meets my needs, but it's not new. I have been looking at other boats, something a little newer, a little faster, and a little nicer. I will have to spend 2-3X what my boat is worth to buy a newer boat that will meet my needs. Is it worth it? Only I can decide that.

In your case "Value" can only be determined by you. Some things that a new(er) boat will have over your boat include
Newer engine with lower hours
Newer sails in better condition
Modern electronics including a below deck autopilot
Furling mainsail and headsail
Furling code 0 or asymmetrical spinnaker
Bow thruster
Windlass
heat and air conditioning
modern galley with refrigeration and microwave oven
modern inverter
larger interior, nicer head, better condition
swim platform

And the list goes on and on.

If you WANT those items then the value they add can be huge. If you don't want a furling mainsail then it may have negative value to you but great value to someone who does.

In my own personal view, the sweet spot for a boat is one that is around 10 years old. Compared to a new boat, a 10 year old boat will be significantly less (in my case around 25% the cost of a new one) and will still have a few years of low cost sailing. I bought my 2002 boat in 2013. I didn't spend any serious money on maintenance for a few years. Then I replaced the main sail, and a few years later I replaced the standing rigging, and a few other items. All told my maintenance costs have been much lower than on my previous boat (1986 O'day 35). True, my total cost is much higher, but I am much happier with my C&C.

Now I'm considering boats from 2013 and newer, 38-42' price around $200K. My wife doesn't want a newer boat. Her point is that the boat we have now is very nice and meets our needs. She is correct and I can't argue with her, but I WANT the newer boat. For now I haven't found anything that I like and that I can afford but spring is on the way.

Thread drift warning: I want a boat that is a really great sailing boat. It must be faster than my C&C (PHRF under 100) but also must be comfortable below and have modern conveniences like below deck pilot, windlass, etc. So far I have seen Dehler 38, and Salona 41. What else is out there? I don't want a boat with a furling headsail. There must be a traveler for the main, preferably end boom sheeting and dual wheels. The new boats from Hanse, Beneteau, etc leave me cold. I can't afford X Boats, J boats, Italia. What about Elan, Dufour (performance model)?

Barry

 

[SchockT]

Hey,

I think this is an interesting topic. Since it's winter and I can't sail I can take some time to add my thoughts.

Some background: My current boat is a 2002 C&C 110 (36'). It's nice and meets my needs, but it's not new. I have been looking at other boats, something a little newer, a little faster, and a little nicer. I will have to spend 2-3X what my boat is worth to buy a newer boat that will meet my needs. Is it worth it? Only I can decide that.

In your case "Value" can only be determined by you. Some things that a new(er) boat will have over your boat include
Newer engine with lower hours
Newer sails in better condition
Modern electronics including a below deck autopilot
Furling mainsail and headsail
Furling code 0 or asymmetrical spinnaker
Bow thruster
Windlass
heat and air conditioning
modern galley with refrigeration and microwave oven
modern inverter
larger interior, nicer head, better condition
swim platform

And the list goes on and on.

If you WANT those items then the value they add can be huge. If you don't want a furling mainsail then it may have negative value to you but great value to someone who does.

In my own personal view, the sweet spot for a boat is one that is around 10 years old. Compared to a new boat, a 10 year old boat will be significantly less (in my case around 25% the cost of a new one) and will still have a few years of low cost sailing. I bought my 2002 boat in 2013. I didn't spend any serious money on maintenance for a few years. Then I replaced the main sail, and a few years later I replaced the standing rigging, and a few other items. All told my maintenance costs have been much lower than on my previous boat (1986 O'day 35). True, my total cost is much higher, but I am much happier with my C&C.

Now I'm considering boats from 2013 and newer, 38-42' price around $200K. My wife doesn't want a newer boat. Her point is that the boat we have now is very nice and meets our needs. She is correct and I can't argue with her, but I WANT the newer boat. For now I haven't found anything that I like and that I can afford but spring is on the way.

Thread drift warning: I want a boat that is a really great sailing boat. It must be faster than my C&C (PHRF under 100) but also must be comfortable below and have modern conveniences like below deck pilot, windlass, etc. So far I have seen Dehler 38, and Salona 41. What else is out there? I don't want a boat with a furling headsail. There must be a traveler for the main, preferably end boom sheeting and dual wheels. The new boats from Hanse, Beneteau, etc leave me cold. I can't afford X Boats, J boats, Italia. What about Elan, Dufour (performance model)?

Barry

Your C&C 110 is a great sailing boat and is more performance oriented than the modern crop of production boats, which tend to lean more towards ease of sailing and creature comforts. According to PHRF the handicap for my boat is sub 100, but I have my doubts that I would be able to race to that rating. The cockpit in my boat leans heavily towards short handed cruising with a permanent cockpit table and primary winches at the helm station. Even the performance version of my boat has the traveler on the cabintop, which wasn't the case 1 generation earlier where the Sunfast model had the traveler in the cockpit.

Unfortunately the more performance oriented boats tend to be the more expensive builders. I was on board a friend's XP44 which is a fantastic performance boat with great amenities, but you pay a premium for that.


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[Killick]

How much money have you put into your Columbia in addition to the original sales price? "All boats cost the same" usually winds up being true in most cases. That being said, for a lot of people they don't have the purchase price in cash plus money for necessary refit just laying in their bank account. What they have is decent credit and enough for a downpayment. So they go get the $100K boat that they can "afford" instead of the $30K boat that they actually can't.

 

[SchockT]

How much money have you put into your Columbia in addition to the original sales price? "All boats cost the same" usually winds up being true in most cases. That being said, for a lot of people they don't have the purchase price in cash plus money for necessary refit just laying in their bank account. What they have is decent credit and enough for a downpayment. So they go get the $100K boat that they can "afford" instead of the $30K boat that they actually can't.

My old boat neighbor has an old Niagara 32 that he has been fixing up and refitting for years. Most of it was DIY but he also had a professional paint job, professional mast overhaul etc. Who knows how much money he sunk into it, but for him it was a labour of love. He is rightfully proud of the work he and his wife did, and now they are ready to retire and their boat is set up just the way they want it.

The value of any boat must be measured in more than just money. Spend what you can afford to live the boating lifestyle you want.


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[loxxsail]

How much money have you put into your Columbia in addition to the original sales price? "All boats cost the same" usually winds up being true in most cases. That being said, for a lot of people they don't have the purchase price in cash plus money for necessary refit just laying in their bank account. What they have is decent credit and enough for a downpayment. So they go get the $100K boat that they can "afford" instead of the $30K boat that they actually can't.

She was in good shape when I purchased her, and I have not had to sink very much into her since, maybe 5k or so. Next major repair is going to be new bottom paint.. but that's reg maintenance on any boat, old or not.

A lot of great points made on this discussion, so I'm glad to hear about different perspectives from owners of different price points.

I do see a little bit of a common theme though, that while there is no real sweet spot due to all of the variables involved, somewhere around the 10-15 year old mark though seems like a good value / price combination.

I'm also really glad that I didn't start an "old vs new" debate because that was not my intention. So I really do appreciate the insight and the perspectives.

 

[Barquito]

The $100k boat is worth $100k if someone is willing to pay for it. Period.

For me, the things you would get on a $100k boat (presumably newer), just aren't worth the price of admission.

 

[DanM1]

Two different ways of looking at it, at least for this discussion. One, I remember when I was looking into buying back in the 70s someone suggested that a sailboat cost about $4 a pound. It actually tracked with many new boat prices at the time. Don't know what the updated current value per pound would be.
Second, there is a pretty good theory that the way to maximize value on a house is to buy new and sell after nine or ten years, before capital replacement (hvac systems, water heaters, new kitchens, bathrooms, etc) is required; or buy at 10 to fifteen years after a chunk of that is recently done by the seller. Same probably applies to a boat. In either case, the value is in new systems as much as actual age of the boat or structure.

 

[flee27]

I think it is a horses for courses question. I purchased an older boat (1987) that had good bones in my opinion. A good bit of deferred maintenance items but nothing major. My dock neighbor said to me the other day, "you need to learn to enjoy your boat more" as I was working away on mine and he was sitting on his drinking a cold drink. His boat was delivered new this summer. My truthful reply was I am enjoying my boat. I enjoy fixing the things that to me need to be done to keep/bring the boat up to my standards. I like tinkering on my boat as much as I enjoy sailing it. So for me the work normally isn't frustrating or a chore, it is rewarding. For him it would be work. I also think the older boats have more character and charm. At least until you get into spending what is to me crazy money that I don't and probably won't ever have.

On the dollar side of things I can keep my boat up and most likely recoup most of my "investment". The new one will definitely never be worth more money than the day he paid for it. So for me the value is in the older boat.

If you love and enjoy your boat than your boat is a good value. Hopefully we all smile a little as we look back at her while walking away.

Foster

 

[SchockT]

I think it is a horses for courses question. I purchased an older boat (1987) that had good bones in my opinion. A good bit of deferred maintenance items but nothing major. My dock neighbor said to me the other day, "you need to learn to enjoy your boat more" as I was working away on mine and he was sitting on his drinking a cold drink. His boat was delivered new this summer. My truthful reply was I am enjoying my boat. I enjoy fixing the things that to me need to be done to keep/bring the boat up to my standards. I like tinkering on my boat as much as I enjoy sailing it. So for me the work normally isn't frustrating or a chore, it is rewarding. For him it would be work. I also think the older boats have more character and charm. At least until you get into spending what is to me crazy money that I don't and probably won't ever have.

On the dollar side of things I can keep my boat up and most likely recoup most of my "investment". The new one will definitely never be worth more money than the day he paid for it. So for me the value is in the older boat.

If you love and enjoy your boat than your boat is a good value. Hopefully we all smile a little as we look back at her while walking away.

Foster

I agree in that I enjoy going down to the boat and tinkering and I did plenty of that on my old 1979 Santana, although replacing the entire head system wasn't a pleasant job. It was satisfying once the job was complete but I would rather not repeat it!

What I didn't enjoy was dealing with old engine issues in the middle of family holidays, which seemed to happen with increasing frequency. It was becoming more and more labour intensive to maintain that old raw water cooled engine. It never let us down, but I did develop a nervous habit of constantly checking engine temp when motoring!

There were many things we would have liked to have on that boat, but we could not justify sinking a lot of money into the old girl. A re-power would have cost as much as the boat was worth. We felt it better to save that money and put it towards our next boat.

Now with my newer boat I still enjoy going down and tinkering, except now it is about customizing and adding equipment, not repairing and replacing worn out systems. I can do what I WANT to do, not what I HAVE to do! Even engine maintenance is a breeze. I have easy access to all sides of the engine. I no longer have to empty out a lazarette, climb down inside and contort myself into unnatural positions to change the water pump impeller!

And there is more time to just hang out on the dock, drink beer, and socialize under the guise of "working on the boat"! It is my floating man-cave!

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[SHNOOL]

So this is my question. At what point, does blowing an extra 75 or 100k on a boat give you 75 or 100k more value?

Answer to the topic question - NO
Answer to the quoted question - Value, like beauty, is always in the eye of the beholder.

Here is a better question (probably originally stated by a jet-skier), why would you spend any money on a sailboat?

To those of us that love our boats, new or old, the boat just spoke to me, and I had to have it. Sometimes it is to the point no amount of money is too much to obtain her, or to maintain her. Sadly this usually, invests US into our boats, which is why sales prices are all over the place for a particular model. Honestly, the price of a boat (or car, or anything) is only that which some other dummy is willing to pay for it. Thanks to a "persistence of vision" we tend to stop seeing problems over time that are staring us in the face, which are easily overlooked by us, and the first thing seen by a potential buyer. Translate, what is a non-issue to us, may be a show-stopper for them.

Is it worth X? probably not. Certainly not if you have to ask the question.

 

[loxxsail]

Answer to the topic question - NO
Answer to the quoted question - Value, like beauty, is always in the eye of the beholder.

Here is a better question (probably originally stated by a jet-skier), why would you spend any money on a sailboat?

To those of us that love our boats, new or old, the boat just spoke to me, and I had to have it. Sometimes it is to the point no amount of money is too much to obtain her, or to maintain her. Sadly this usually, invests US into our boats, which is why sales prices are all over the place for a particular model. Honestly, the price of a boat (or car, or anything) is only that which some other dummy is willing to pay for it. Thanks to a "persistence of vision" we tend to stop seeing problems over time that are staring us in the face, which are easily overlooked by us, and the first thing seen by a potential buyer. Translate, what is a non-issue to us, may be a show-stopper for them.

Is it worth X? probably not. Certainly not if you have to ask the question.

...As a former jet-ski owner, I might make the reverse statement... why would you spend any money on jetski? They're expensive maintenance nightmares (depending on the model) that one usually gets far more enjoyment out of renting / using / borrowing someone else's than having their own. (Now watch all the jetski owners come out of the woodwork on here with their pitch forks and torches =D )...

But I totally get what your saying.. people fall in love with a thing..boat, car, airplane, whatever, and for them any amount of money is just fine while their chasing their dream....to them, it's priceless.

 

[SchockT]

It's funny because I see so many expensive cars driving around. Teslas are everywhere these days. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes they are EVERYWHERE. Many of those cars cost more than my boat. I like cars, but I couldn't bring myself to spend 100k or more on one. I see a a Lamborghini or a Ferrari and I think "Nice car...but think of the BOAT I could have for that money!"

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[SanderO]

It's funny because I see so many expensive cars driving around. Teslas are everywhere these days. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes they are EVERYWHERE. Many of those cars cost more than my boat. I like cars, but I couldn't bring myself to spend 100k or more on one. I see a a Lamborghini or a Ferrari and I think "Nice car...but think of the BOAT I could have for that money!"

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Buying a car is easy peasy...low down payment and credit... affordable monthly payments....