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Isn't a cutter just a sloop with 2 forestays?

445 Views 15 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  walthesalt
Couldn't you just put a Genoa on the front forestay and essentially have a sloop (with an extra forestay in the way)?
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Yes, as you can put a 25hp outboard on a dinghy rated for 15hp.

cutters are designed, and rigged, to select and divide the sail load. Some boats have been sold as cutter or sloop with no consideration of rig design, perhaps that’s the confusion.
Traditionally, the mainmast on a cutter was positioned further aft than on a sloop.

Today, whether a boat is called a sloop or a cutter is made by the marketing department with little reference to how the boat is actually designed.
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A cutter has 2 forestays and old guy at helm.

Sloop with twin forestays is a young dude rich enough to buy 2 genoas.

Mark
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2
Real cutter:


Old guy at the helm:
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Real cutter:

Old guy at the helm:

Case closed!!

gary
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But we luv ya!!!!!!!!! 😁😁😁😁


Mark
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Mast is back further on a cutter.
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Mast is back further on a cutter.
so the old guy doesn’t have as far to walk to get to the halyards on the mast.
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Mast is back further - in relation to sail plan not deck plan. So we are 44’ on deck and our mast is about where it would be for a sloop EXCEPT for the 5’ long bow sprit. Now look wt it as a 49 foot boat and the mast is further back.

The Previous Owner bought a bug new high cut headsail. The sailmaker designed it as if was a sloop. The DESIGNER had specified a smaller head sail without a full lift. The consequence is that the new sail it moved centers of effort back about 2 feet and UP about 1-1/2’, the result was a nasty weather helm. Once I switched to the smaller working job she sailed flatter and faster and balanced. I don’t loose sail area because I have a substantial staysail, nearly at the stem head and I fly the staysail frequently.

Also we have a big main, 550 square feet, a fair bit of roach. I find I seldom use the entire sail, frequently have a first reef.

I once read that a Main is really a light wind sail, and I find that a good way of looking at it, for my cutter.

Also my underbody is very different from modern sloops. I have a lot in common with a Cale George Cutter or a Freedom 40. Cut away full keel, very wide in section, and a broad flat leading edge. Many full keel boats have the same lrofile and wide keels, but most have a rounded leading edge. I have read design discussions of why the blunt leading edge hit they were beyond my understanding, but it is intentional. This high wetted surface underbody probably has some influence on the configuration of the rig.

This is all to say, from my experience, that a CUTTER design has more elements than simply adding an inner forestay, it also has to do with the underwater design and how these elements balance.
Much of what I know comes from Jeff who has helped me greatly in understanding my boat and improving its performance.

AND a caveat, I also have a Ted Brewer cutter, with a long fin keel which sails well for her heft. A full keel is not necessary, but the Designer working out the balance is. And paying attention to designed sail plans makes sense.
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Most if not all conversions the OP mentions would be a Slutter, not a true Cutter, which rightly describes the disproportionate rig. A real cutter has much more going on than can be achieved by a simple conversion, starting below the waterline, but including the mast being set more aft, a boom on the stasail which can be rigged as self-tacking and a substantial bowsprit for the forward stay allowing sufficient room for the headsail to come about without hanging up on the stasail. The additional division within the forward triangle serve multiple function and is considered advantageous unless you own a sloop ;)
This was written for another purpose but somewhat addresses the topic at hand. Some of this has been said above, and so I apologize in advance for the length and those items that are redundant.

Today the terms 'Sloop' and 'Cutter' are used quite loosely as compared to their more traditional definitions. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition, a sloop could have multiple jibs. Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sail plan or further aft, multiple headsails and reefing bowsprit. Somewhere in the 1960’s or 1970’s there was a shift in these definitions such that it was assumed that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position seemingly became irrelevant. (and a no one even knew what a reefing bowsprit was) For the sake of this discussion I assume we are discussing the modern definition of a sloop and a cutter.

Historically, when sail handling hardware was primitive and sails were far more stretchy than they are today, the smaller headsails and mainsail of a traditional cutter were easier to handle and with less sail stretch, allowed earlier cutters to be more weatherly (sail closer to the wind) than the sloops of the day. With the invention of lower stretch sailcloth and geared winches, cutters quickly lost their earlier advantage.

Today sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle. Their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sail plan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the Genoa across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware sloops are less expensive to build.

Sloops come in a couple varieties, masthead and fractional. In a masthead rig the forestay and jib originates at the masthead. In a fractional rig, the forestay originated some fraction of the mast height down from the masthead. Historically, sloops were traditionally fractionally rigged. Fractional rigs tend to give the most drive per square foot of sail area. Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Today they are often proportioned so that they do not need overlapping headsails, making them even easier to sail. One of the major advantages of a fractional rigs is the ability when combined with a flexible mast, is the ability to use the backstay to control mast bend. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay flattening the jib, and induces mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range than masthead rig without reefing, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills.

While fractional rigs used to require running backstays, better materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allow the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays.

Masthead rigs came into popularity in the 1950’s primarily in response to racing rating rules that under-penalized jibs and spinnakers and so promoted bigger headsails. Masthead sloops tend to be simpler rigs to build and adjust. They tend to be more dependent on large headsails and so are a little harder to tack and so require a larger headsail inventory if performance is important. Mast bend is harder to control and so bigger masthead rigs will often have a babystay that can be tensioned to induce mast bend in the same way as a fractional rig does. Dragging a Genoa over the babystay makes tacking a bit more difficult and slower. While roller furling allows a wider wind range for a given Genoa, there is a real limit (typically cited 10% to 15%) to how much a Genoa can be roller furled and still maintain a safely flat shape.

Cutters, which had pretty much dropped out of popularity during a period from the end of WWII until the early 1970’s, came back into popularity with a vengeance in the early 1970’s as an offshore cruising rig. In theory, the multiple jibs allow the forestaysail to be dropped or completely furled, and when combined with a reefed mainsail and the full staysail, results in a very compact heavy weather rig (similar to the proportions of a fractional rigged sloop with a reef in the mainsail). As a result the cutter rig is often cited as the ideal offshore rig. Like fractional rigs, cutter rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. Unlike the fractional rig, the geometry of these running backstays typically requires that the running backstays be tacked whenever the boat is tacked.

Cutters are often designed for boats with proportionately small stability relative to their drag because the vertical center of effort of their rigs is lower. This results from the sail plan being spread over a longer horizontal distance, which is especially true when the boat has a bowsprit and/or boomkin. The lower height of the vertical center of effort would tend to heel them less for a given sail area. Often cutters are designed to be undercanvassed (with a comparatively small SA/D) which hurts light to moderate wind sailing capabilities. That is compounded by the inefficiency of the sails due to interaction of the jib and the forestaysail.

Cutters make a less successful rig for coastal sailing. Generally cutters tend to have snug rigs that depend on larger Genoas for light air performance. Because those are extremely low aspect ratio with shorter luffs they are significantly less efficient than a similar sail area genoa on a sloop. Tacking these large Genoas through the narrow slot between the Jibstay and Forestay is a much harder operation than tacking a sloop. As a result many of today’s cutters have a removable jibstay that can be rigged in heavier winds. This somewhat reduces the advantage of a cutter rig (i.e. having a permanently rigged and ready to fly small, heavy weather jib).

Cutters these days generally do not point as close to the wind as similar sized sloops. Because of the need to keep the slots of two headsails open enough to permit good airflow, headsails cannot be pulled in as far as on a sloop without choking off the airflow in the slot. Since cutters are generally associated with the less efficient underbodies that are typical of offshore boats this is less of a problem that it might sound. Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the Genoa acts in the bad air of the staysail. They also can only use smaller-lower aspect ratio spinnakers.

Jeff
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Traditionally, the mainmast on a cutter was positioned further aft than on a sloop.
Today, whether a boat is called a sloop or a cutter is made by the marketing department with little reference to how the boat is actually designed.
Oh Jeff...
Am I wrong?
I am not sure whether Mike was commenting on your post (assuming your name is the same as mine) or whether Mike was calling for me to weigh-in knowing that I probably would reply in any case. ;)

But you are not exactly right or wrong. Your are right that "the mainmast on a cutter was positioned further aft than on a sloop."

But I don't think it is the marketing department that makes the call. I think that the definition of a cutter has shifted in common usage. It had been a slow shift that seemed to start through the incorrect use of the traditional terms by people who should know better. It happened at a time when a lot of folks were taking up sailing and the Cutter rig was popularized for cruising. It seemed like these new sailors accepted the shifting definitions because they saw seemingly knowldgeable people misusing the term and figured those people must know better.

The shift then led to a whole slew of nonsensical terms like "Cutter ketch", "Slat", or "Slutter". These terms apply to rigs which already had clearly defined traditional definitions and which therefore didn't need a new name.

Jeff
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Couldn't you just put a Genoa on the front forestay and essentially have a sloop (with an extra forestay in the way)?
It's about the rig balance in higher winds . A traditional cutter with two jibs can shorten sail be reefing the main (which moves the sail center of effort forward) and taking in the outer jib (which moves it aft).
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