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Well, once a boat is designed for a stand up, walk around double (probably queen) berth, as well as more storage, provisions, and liquids - then add on a bit more speed - and you will pretty much get all the rest of your "don't need" list along for the ride.

I'd venture that a boat designed just for a stand up, walk around double berth will bring the rest with it by default.

It would be difficult to provide more speed on a boat designed for more storage without increasing sail area.

Out of curiosity, why don't you like a separate shower? That is by far one of the nicer features of our last two boats - no more cleaning up after showers, no wet TP or towels, no wet toilet seat.

Mark
This makes perfect sense. One think made bigger means a whole lot of other things are made bigger. So YES these features are all related in a synergistic manner.

Stand up walk around queen sized cabin in a mono means a center cockpit usually as well.

I discovered quite by accident that the showering arrangement on my boat is not only acceptable... but something which seems to offer some benefits for the way we use the boat and the accommodation plan it has. We have an 80x80 bunk aft which we can obviously sleep either fore and aft or athwart-ship... and so the V which is also a double is used as a walk in closet and berths for guests when they stay over.

The head is just aft of the V and far from where we sleep which is fine for noise and smells and so on. It also has a large hatch on CL for ventilation... or taking the spinnaker up and down for storage under the V. That hatch will dry out the head which is also the shower. We use a hand shower which is also the sink faucet. We can sit on the head to shower or stand up. It has the mirror and lockers with towels and so on. When we finish showering we squeegee to walls. Essentially the head gets a wash whenever we shower. Who washes their head? We do ever time we shower! Our head has no odors whatsoever. And for a boat shower.. one of our size... it's spacious but has hand holds too. Flow through ventilation is fabulous.

+++

As far as speed is concerned. Adding a few feet to the LWL will only slightly increase hull speed. So unless it's a much longer LWL and different underbody.... the speed difference is slight. If you consider for example... all the boats who did the Marion Bermuda race when I did in '91. It was a 670 or so mile journey... and 200 boats of sizes from perhaps high 20s to maybe 50+ all arrived with a span of maybe 12 hrs (all guesses here) for a 4-5 day trip. In the big picture not all that much difference. But for competition seconds and minutes are a big deal. For cruising purposes.. no big deal really.

+++

Bigger sails means much bigger forces on the running rigging.. and more effort in raising and so on. I am fine with the fractional I have with a smallish RF head sail and a large main which is raised once with a drill powered winch.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Silly me to think that a wider boat is harder to move through a crowded anchorage, especially when you are trying to thread a narrow gap. I would agree that most gaps are not that tight, but I’ve been in tight spots where an additional 12’ of beam would put me uncomfortably close to another boat, particularly when conditions have the boats doing an unsynchronized dance at anchor. I’ve also been in mooring fields where I had to pick and choose a path for my 12’ beam—like Falmouth, MA—when there are small craft tethered behind the mother ship, where maneuvering a 25’ wide cat would be a real challenge.
One can always use extremes to find a solution to their argument. An Island Packet 40 has a 13' beam, and our Manta 40 has a 21' beam. Eight feet of difference won't matter in any anchorage or mooring field that I would be comfortable using - even on the Island Packet.

As for maneuvering through that field, the Manta will be much more maneuverable than the Island Packet.

There really isn't any difference between "picking and choosing" and "a real challenge", but one can always design an argument situation to specifically favor one side, while treating it as a universal truth.

Would you like to debate which type of boat is better for backing into a slip in a tight marina with a cross wind?

Mark
 

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One can always use extremes to find a solution to their argument. An Island Packet 40 has a 13' beam, and our Manta 40 has a 21' beam. Eight feet of difference won't matter in any anchorage or mooring field that I would be comfortable using - even on the Island Packet.

As for maneuvering through that field, the Manta will be much more maneuverable than the Island Packet.

There really isn't any difference between "picking and choosing" and "a real challenge", but one can always design an argument situation to specifically favor one side, while treating it as a universal truth.

Would you like to debate which type of boat is better for backing into a slip in a tight marina with a cross wind?

Mark
I regularly back my 35' monohull to dock on the leeward side of my dock in very shallow water (2.5' MLW). Hard objects are 50 ft away at high tide, but at low tide I have 10 ft to spare before grounding in the muck. At low tide my draft is approximately 2' (with the keel and rudder up) and you need skill to keep on track. Now into my 23rd year with this boat (Clearwater 35), I've developed the technique and the skill to pull this off in cross winds, but I wouldn't expect a newbie to easily slide into that groove.

I also maneuver this boat in the shallow ends of tight anchorages (like BI) with the keel and rudder up. This is where you want some breathing room, particularly in skinny water where you can't go in a Manta 40. Come to think of it, you couldn't get a Manta 40 to my dock at mid to low tides, either.

So, to your last line: No, I would not like to "debate" someone who denigrates alternative opinions. Rather, I can offer my opinion for the reader to take or leave.

I see the pros and cons of different boats, but there are always compromises, so there is no "one size (or hull shape) fits all situations"--kind of like anchors. Just my opinion, of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
So, to your last line: No, I would not like to "debate" someone who denigrates alternative opinions. Rather, I can offer my opinion for the reader to take or leave.
Where did I denigrate anyone's opinions?

As for designing specific conditions to support an argument, you just took the cake for using extremes. No other monohull can do what you engineered as doing better than a catamaran either.

Having maneuvered both a 40' monohull for 10yrs, and a 40' catamaran for 6yrs in the exact locations you described as problematic for a catamaran (except your personal dock), I can state that there is no issue at all with the catamaran, the catamaran is more maneuverable than most monohulls in these situations, but something like a J-105 type monohull would probably be more maneuverable in very tight situations in forward (but not reverse).

This was your original argument that I disagreed with. Then you started re-engineering the conditions and variables of your argument for whatever reasons you had. I have no opinion of relative abilities to land a boat at your personal dock under any weather or tide conditions.

That is just my opinion based on much experience with both types of boats in your chosen areas. Perhaps I'm mistaken and my situation was unique. Maybe if you described your experiences with both types of boats in those areas I could see your points better.

BTW, that line you quoted was just a rhetorical question. I thought it was obvious. I don't know the emoji for that.

Mark
 

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Older couple in anchorage on a F31 tri...does 6 months at a time.
Huge alum cat from australia...must be 50ish. Not very high freeboard...looked purpose built to cross oceans. Cool older guy. Cap and 1 mate.
New 40+ cats with lots of toys aboard....
 
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