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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
That's a fantastic idea now I know what to do with that eight person life raft I have an on my 44i...I think I could fit two of them in there. Haha

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Yeah we have no need for a life raft for the coastal cruising we do, so that locker is really handy for other things. Extra jugs of fuel, fenders, snorkeling gear, and BEER!

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Thanks for this writeup- We have a lot in common about what we prefer in sailboats and I have looked at this boat (there is one for sale here in MDR). My wife REALLY loved the interior, which is the biggest selling point. My question always is, "can I compete in the local Cruiser Class races?" and your info is very enlightening. Must....Have....feathering/folding....prop....
Yeah we love the interior too! I have no doubt there is more performance to be gained. The boat competes well against other cruising boats. I don't think your typical Hunter or Catalina would touch her. There was a Beneteau 373 out that was WAY behind us...and we though WE were slow!

If you want to do any club racing the Performance version would be better, with a deeper keel and taller mast. Unfortunately there were very few brought into our area.

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Yes certainly symetrics are much better at running, but as you know, flying a symetric is a lot more work, and much more intimidating for short handed cruisers.
I see comments like this a lot, but having sailed both symmetric and asymmetrical chutes a whole lot, short-handed a symmetrical chute is much easier to hoist and douse than an asym, and also easier and more reliable to jibe without getting a wrap.

Jeff
 
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I see comments like this a lot, but having sailed both symmetric and asymmetrical chutes a whole lot, short-handed a symmetrical chute is much easier to hoist and douse than an asym, and also easier and more reliable to jibe without getting a wrap.

Jeff
Throughout my racing career my primary role has been foredeck, so I have got plenty of experience with both types of spinnakers. Personally I find symetrics more fun for racing because there is so much more to do, therefore the role of foredeck crew is that much more important. I also know how badly things can go wrong with symetric spinnakers.

Certainly on small boats where you can run a simple set of sheets, and the loads aren't too high a symetric is still very manageable, but you still have the added complexity of the spinnaker pole, downhaul, uphaul etc. Someone still has to go up to the foredeck to gybe the pole. Again, fairly straight forward for an experienced racer as long as the wind and sea conditions are reasonably tame.

Now if you move up to a 40ft or bigger boat, the loads are higher, the pole is bigger, and you likely need to run sheets and guys. So now the person at the back of the boat has to manage sheets, guys, downhaul and uphaul and helm while their partner goes forward to gybe the pole. If you have ever done foredeck you will know how vulnerable you are to losing control during those moments when both corners of the chute are loose. If a mistake is made on the helm it is very easy to broach even in moderate breezes. There is far more potential for things to go wrong gybing a symetric.

Contrast that to an asymetric...you have sheets, and maybe a tack line. Gybes can be done by one person from the cockpit. It really isnt that hard to gybe without wrapping around the forestay! If the wind gets too strong you can just blow the tack, the sail flies like a flag until you gather it up, and off you go. No pole to stow before you can gybe or tack, much less spaghetti in the cockpit, and generally much less stress on the wife!

Sure lots of people prefer symetrics for a variety of reasons, but there is NO WAY it is simpler or easier than an asymetric in any way!

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Throughout my racing career my primary role has been foredeck, so I have got plenty of experience with both types of spinnakers. Personally I find symetrics more fun for racing because there is so much more to do, therefore the role of foredeck crew is that much more important. I also know how badly things can go wrong with symetric spinnakers.

Certainly on small boats where you can run a simple set of sheets, and the loads aren't too high a symetric is still very manageable, but you still have the added complexity of the spinnaker pole, downhaul, uphaul etc. Someone still has to go up to the foredeck to gybe the pole. Again, fairly straight forward for an experienced racer as long as the wind and sea conditions are reasonably tame.

Now if you move up to a 40ft or bigger boat, the loads are higher, the pole is bigger, and you likely need to run sheets and guys. So now the person at the back of the boat has to manage sheets, guys, downhaul and uphaul and helm while their partner goes forward to gybe the pole. If you have ever done foredeck you will know how vulnerable you are to losing control during those moments when both corners of the chute are loose. If a mistake is made on the helm it is very easy to broach even in moderate breezes. There is far more potential for things to go wrong gybing a symetric.

Contrast that to an asymetric...you have sheets, and maybe a tack line. Gybes can be done by one person from the cockpit. It really isnt that hard to gybe without wrapping around the forestay! If the wind gets too strong you can just blow the tack, the sail flies like a flag until you gather it up, and off you go. No pole to stow before you can gybe or tack, much less spaghetti in the cockpit, and generally much less stress on the wife!

Sure lots of people prefer symetrics for a variety of reasons, but there is NO WAY it is simpler or easier than an asymetric in any way!

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We obviously see this a little differently. This is me single-handing under spinnaker in close to 20 knots of wind.
https://flic.kr/p/WvfEzT]
[/url]Synergy under Spinnaker Approaching Bridge 2 by jeff_halp, on Flickr

Granted my boat is a foot shorter and a little lighter than yours, so my chute is smaller, but I have done this on somewhat larger boats as well. There is a limit to the size of a boat that can be easily short-handed under a symmetrical chute since the key is having a boat that is small enough that it is still possible to do an end for end jibe. On a boat the size of our boats, the pole is still small enough to be pretty managable end for ending. But given a boat that can be end for end jibed, then using twings led to the cockpit and marking the sheets for the jibe, it is easy to do a single handed jibe with a symmetric chute by setting the autopilot to just above dead downwind, twinging down both sheets, and then throwing the pole. Once the pole is across, its pretty simple to go back to the cockpit, throw the boom and work your way up to your new course.

To me assyms are dangerous short-handed. I have been on well sailed fully crewed boats that have gotten wraps in their assyms that have taken two-three crew to clear and someone else to steer. Wraps can be avoided by having the jib partially set so it acts as a spinnaker net, but while safer, its not easier.

Jeff
 

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I am getting to old for all that pole stuff single handed. I use a top down, put it up on the sprit before I leave the dock. to jibe I furl the assym, jibe the main and unfurl. if it all goes bad with the unfurl I blow the tack line, the sail is behind the main and pull it down into the cockpit. much safer then my days with a pole
 

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Yeah we have no need for a life raft for the coastal cruising we do, .....
What are the water temps there? It's mid-season here and they are barely in the low 60s.

Just a couple of days ago, I heard a Pan-Pan for a MOB who was reportedly wearing a life jacket. They hadn't found him just a mile off the beach and ultimately called it off. No way he was still alive in those water temps.

https://www.ack.net/news/20190625/coast-guard-suspends-search-for-missing-kayaker

This guy fell out of a kayak, but the point remains. Even coastal, you need to stay alive for quite a while, waiting for rescue. In the 50 degree water temps that start our season, you'll be paralyzed in well under an hour and dead within 2 hrs.

I'm a life raft fan. A buddy, without the room for one, bought Gumby suits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
We obviously see this a little differently. This is me single-handing under spinnaker in close to 20 knots of wind.
https://flic.kr/p/WvfEzT]
[/url]Synergy under Spinnaker Approaching Bridge 2 by jeff_halp, on Flickr

Granted my boat is a foot shorter and a little lighter than yours, so my chute is smaller, but I have done this on somewhat larger boats as well. There is a limit to the size of a boat that can be easily short-handed under a symmetrical chute since the key is having a boat that is small enough that it is still possible to do an end for end jibe. On a boat the size of our boats, the pole is still small enough to be pretty managable end for ending. But given a boat that can be end for end jibed, then using twings led to the cockpit and marking the sheets for the jibe, it is easy to do a single handed jibe with a symmetric chute by setting the autopilot to just above dead downwind, twinging down both sheets, and then throwing the pole. Once the pole is across, its pretty simple to go back to the cockpit, throw the boom and work your way up to your new course.

To me assyms are dangerous short-handed. I have been on well sailed fully crewed boats that have gotten wraps in their assyms that have taken two-three crew to clear and someone else to steer. Wraps can be avoided by having the jib partially set so it acts as a spinnaker net, but while safer, its not easier.

Jeff
Nice boat!

I'm not saying it can't be done, lots of people fly syms single handed. Yours is probably a lot easier than my old Santana with tiller steering and no autohelm...

My point is that for the average cruiser an asym is much easier than a symetric. I have experienced far more disastrous gybes with symetrics than with asyms. I have never had a severe wrap with an A-kite, whether on a crewed race boat or with my wife and I. I can think of plenty of bad gybes with symetrics, including broken spin poles, and nearly going overboard in SF Bay.

If you dont already have symetric gear and spinnaker, asym is a no brainer for cruising boats such as mine.

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Minnie,

Salish sea in southern part where I am is typically 42-45F year around! We have a bit less time than you do. I have seen some of the shallower bays with a big creek or equal freeze in winter time, when it is cold ie below freezing for a week or two. That is fresh water freezing that sits on top of the salt water.

As far as racing the newer Jeanneau's, The i series, and the previous SO/SF series boats are probably the best overall sailing boats. The 39iP is the best powered up version, but very few P versions. The SF35 is the best of the previous model. I have seen quite a few 42iP and lots of 36iP's around in the i series. The SF37 is probably the most available version in NA of older ones.
The newer 9 series versions, are a bit slower overall. Do have for the length, the most WL, so should be fastest, but the sail area disp amounts are on lower end of things, so performance is not as good.

Marty
 

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Minnie,

Salish sea in southern part where I am is typically 42-45F year around! We have a bit less time than you do.....
Wow. That's unconscious in < 30 mins and dead in <1 hr. One probably wouldn't be able to aid in their own recovery, if the boat they fell off came right back to get them.

You folks sail in life raft or dry suit mandatory waters, IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Wow. That's unconscious in < 30 mins and dead in <1 hr. One probably wouldn't be able to aid in their own recovery, if the boat they fell off came right back to get them.

You folks sail in life raft or dry suit mandatory waters, IMO.
Current water temp where I am at the moment is 18°C, or about 65°F. I will swim in anything over 15°, and will often spend 45min at a time in the water cleaning the bottom.

When we are cruising we are always towing a dinghy. If there was ever an occasion where we had to abandon ship that would serve just fine. Life rafts are not meant to rescue a man overboard, they are meant for extreme situations such as sinking or fire.

The only boats you see carrying liferafts around here are the blue water cruisers. It is very uncommon to see one on a coastal cruiser.

Maybe everyone just likes to live dangerously up here...

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Discussion Starter · #32 · (Edited)
Minnie,

Salish sea in southern part where I am is typically 42-45F year around! We have a bit less time than you do. I have seen some of the shallower bays with a big creek or equal freeze in winter time, when it is cold ie below freezing for a week or two. That is fresh water freezing that sits on top of the salt water.

As far as racing the newer Jeanneau's, The i series, and the previous SO/SF series boats are probably the best overall sailing boats. The 39iP is the best powered up version, but very few P versions. The SF35 is the best of the previous model. I have seen quite a few 42iP and lots of 36iP's around in the i series. The SF37 is probably the most available version in NA of older ones.

The newer 9 series versions, are a bit slower overall. Do have for the length, the most WL, so should be fastest, but the sail area disp amounts are on lower end of things, so performance is not as good.

Marty
There is a SF37 in our club that has been racing for years and has good racing sails. When we started upwind in 15 kts we were able to hang with him for a while, and had a few close crossings. We had pretty good boatspeed but we couldn't point like he could, which is to be expected considering the condition of our sails. He ultimately left us behind, but I have no doubt that we will be more competitive in the future.
Of course the SunFast line is the logical choice if racing is a priority. The traveller in the cockpit, and the big headsail make it a much better racer. The permanent cockpit table and the need to use a winch on the mainsheet and traveller on our boat are a bit of a nuisance to be sure, but all is forgiven as I lounge in the cockpit writing this!
It is interesting that the SF35 is a faster boat than the SF37. It is not just a longer version of the same boat, it is a completely different hull from a different designer. Jaques Fauroux designed the 37, while Marc Lombard designed the 35. Lombard then went on to design the next generation 36i and 39i.

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Current water temp where I am at the moment is 18°C, or about 65°F. I will swim in anything over 15°, and will often spend 45min at a time in the water cleaning the bottom.

When we are cruising we are always towing a dinghy. If there was ever an occasion where we had to abandon ship that would serve just fine. Life rafts are not meant to rescue a man overboard, they are meant for extreme situations such as sinking or fire.

The only boats you see carrying liferafts around here are the blue water cruisers. It is very uncommon to see one on a coastal cruiser.

Maybe everyone just likes to live dangerously up here...

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I didn't mean to imply the raft was for a single MOB. I was just using the reference to make the point about the physical impacts of cold water immersion survival.

45 mins in 65 degrees is pretty hearty, but I don't doubt it. I couldn't do it. Still, that's not close to a typical rescue time. A couple of hours to locate and respond would be normal around here. That assumes a prompt call for help, not an unknown catastrophe. A dinghy is fine, if seas are under 2 ft, IMO. Some disagree, but I do wonder if they've ever been in a dinghy in steep nasty seas.

All that said, I doubt most have on raft aboard around here either and our season starts at 50 degrees water temps. Of course, ours is in a dedicated locker in the salon floor, so one couldn't visually identify that we have one.
 

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Minne,

The few MOB's that I have heard of locally, are usually in races. I can only think of one that resulted in death, and most had the person out of the water within 5 max 10 minutes. Non race would probably be a different issue, as there would not be that many boats around to collect the person.
The one death, not recalling if the person had a heart attack and ended up in the water, or the february water which can be colder than summer caused the HA. He was pulled out within 10 min max.
The only thing that would help is if every one wore a dry suit, or survival suit ALL the time. That is not happening in bigger boats. Some of the dingy racers wear dry suits year around or at least October to early May. Which makes sense due to air and water temps. I would myself if I raced a Laser or equal on Puget Sound where I am, or up north with Shock is.

Marty
 

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Marty,

I should not have referenced the MOB, as it was solely making an immersion point. If you get them out in 5 or 10 mins, that’s great.

The post I was reacting to made a comment to the effect that they don’t need a raft, because they only coastal cruise. I don’t think it matters how far offshore one is in those water temps, if you’re off the coast at all. If the mother ship goes down, a pfd isn’t going to be enough.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. YMMV. 🙂
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 · (Edited)
Marty,

I should not have referenced the MOB, as it was solely making an immersion point. If you get them out in 5 or 10 mins, that's great.

The post I was reacting to made a comment to the effect that they don't need a raft, because they only coastal cruise. I don't think it matters how far offshore one is in those water temps, if you're off the coast at all. If the mother ship goes down, a pfd isn't going to be enough.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. YMMV.
And my point was that in the protected waters I sail in, the odds of a boat sinking before help can arrive or before it can get to shore are very slim indeed. In fact I can't recall ever hearing about a fatality relating to a sailboat sinking in our waters. Is it possible that something catastrophic could cause a boat to sink quickly? Sure. But it is very unlikely. It is possible that someone could be killed by being hit in the head by a boom, but we don't all wear helmets do we? (That is actually much MORE likely!)

The possibility that a liferaft would ever be needed on a boat that is being cruised in protected waters in fair weather is so slim that most people could not justify the thousands of dollars to purchase and maintain a liferaft. Even race boats that do open ocean races that require liferafts rent them for the events.

Certainly if my wife and I decide to start venturing into open ocean far from land we would consider investing in a liferaft, and in that case, the liferaft locker on the Jeanneau 39i is an excellent place to store it because it is right on the stern and opens aft which would make it easy to deploy.

In the meantime, for those of us who dont have liferafts, the locker is an excellent place to store spare fenders, spare fuel, (it will fit 4x22 Liter Jerry cans with room to spare!), snorkeling or diving gear etc! Even a keg of beer and ten bags of ice!

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For local close to shore cruising in southern NE a life raft is a bit over kill. If you have the space and the money... sure. Many cruise with a dink which can work in all but nasty storm conditions if the boat we sinking. Most cruisers are watching weather and few will get caught in anything but a line squall or a pop up T storm.... not fun for sure but usually avoidable.
 

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..... on a boat that is being cruised in protected waters in fair weather.....

Certainly if my wife and I decide to start venturing into open ocean .....
Got it. Protected waters in fair weather is not my definition of coastal cruising. I'm sure there is no official definition, but I imagined off the coast. Enjoy the beer.

As the news story I posted above indicated, a guy here went in the drink about a quarter mile offshore in open ocean and was never recovered. Different ballgame.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Got it. Protected waters in fair weather is not my definition of coastal cruising. I'm sure there is no official definition, but I imagined off the coast. Enjoy the beer.

As the news story I posted above indicated, a guy here went in the drink about a quarter mile offshore in open ocean and was never recovered. Different ballgame.
Yes, the coastline in our waters is dotted with thousands of islands, inlets, fjords etc.
You could spend a lifetime exploring the coastline without ever venturing offshore, or even open ocean for any great distance. That's not to say that it doesnt get windy or rough, but certainly nothing that can sink a 40ft boat.

Kayakers falling in the water is a different story altogether. People do die falling overboard, or capsizing small craft, but that is nothing a liferaft would help with.

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The only reason I mention the kayaker is to show how long one may need to be in the water around here, for any reason, before anyone may find you. Painfully, that guy was never found and he was seen going in. Probably as close as you are to all those islands.
 
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