[MikeOReilly]

If it's a choice I'd go with the cam cleats first. Winchers can work well, but are even less secure.

 

[swim06]

Great, thanks for the feedback! I think that seemed like the consensus answer but just wanted to clarify. Happy sailing to all

 

[SchockT]

If it's a choice I'd go with the cam cleats first. Winchers can work well, but are even less secure.

I would agree. I seem to recall the sheet fell out of the winches pretty easily. I usually used the jam cleats instead of the winchers.

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[pdqaltair]

... Maybe I'm just used to it, but I'm surprised at all the angst over releasing a horn cleat. It should never be hard. Sure, it might take an extra second or two, but if that's your window to avoid disaster, well... I think you're already sunk.

This depends entirely on the sort of boat you are accustomed to sailing and how you sail. Sailing at double digit speeds, yeah, time counts. On multihulls, another factor may be that the horn cleats is far away, a dozzen feet or more across the cockpit. You won't find a horn cleat in the cockpit of a performance boat.

And it's not necessarily a matter of diverting disaster either. Just ease of use and efficiency. On a lazy, light wind day, I would rather use two turns on the winch and hand tail into a cam cleat than use the self-tailor. It's just easier. I'm probably not even using a winch handle, unless quite hard on the wind. When tacking, I just haul until it's in, and then drop it into the cam in one unbroken motion. Easy and smooth.

But really the key factor is "do rope tails from winches fall out of cam cleats?" The answer is they do not, not in 30 years of doing it this way. A made up risk. Winches don't pull out of the deck if properly backed. Cam cleats will never seem more than hand tension, even on highly loaded winches. That's just he way the physics works.

 

[jephotog]

Did not mean to cause any tension here.

Yep its all your fault.

Try the double wrap before investing any more on the boat. How do you sail it with your grandpa onboard or with a friend or by yourself?

I have had my eye on the Sun Yacht has been on my list of potential boats only because Robert Perry had a hand in its design. He is one the most prolific designers of great cruising boats of all time. Great first boat to own.

https://www.perryboat.com/

Does the boat have standing headroom below? What kind of motor does it have?

 

[swim06]

Yep its all your fault.

Try the double wrap before investing any more on the boat. How do you sail it with your grandpa onboard or with a friend or by yourself?

I have had my eye on the Sun Yacht has been on my list of potential boats only because Robert Perry had a hand in its design. He is one the most prolific designers of great cruising boats of all time. Great first boat to own.

https://www.perryboat.com/

Does the boat have standing headroom below? What kind of motor does it have?

Right. I almost forgot about trying the double wrap first. Will do. I always sail with someone else just because I am still getting a feel for sailing. I intend on being able to sail it by myself one day however.

Interesting about the Sun Yacht, I did not know it had such history. I personally love the boat because I have so many great memories on it. Growing up I used to go out on it with my mom and her dad (my grandfather). I used to spend the night on it and think that was the coolest thing in the world. In more recent years, we haven't been using it as much because it is getting harder for my grandpa to take care of (he is 82 now). But that is why I have stepped it up and decided to take on the role of learning how to sail and how to take care of the boat.

Plenty of standing headroom down below and it sleeps 5. Although I'd say 4 seems more reasonable. Plenty of space, it has a foldable card table, stove, sink, and small bathroom. I don't know too much about the motor. I can tell you it uses a Yanmar inboard engine that has a 15 gallon tank capacity, but that is about all I know. Couldn't tell you the horsepower or anything like that. Sorry! Like I said, I love the boat and I would recommend it to you, only thing is I havent been on enough boats to confidently say it is better than most. One complaint I have heard about the boat is that because they stopped making them awhile ago, it is hard to find specific boat parts. I haven't really ran into that problem yet but I think there are plenty of similar boats that use the same boat parts so idk how big of a deal that is. Hope that helps!

 

[SchockT]

Right. I almost forgot about trying the double wrap first. Will do. I always sail with someone else just because I am still getting a feel for sailing. I intend on being able to sail it by myself one day however.

Interesting about the Sun Yacht, I did not know it had such history. I personally love the boat because I have so many great memories on it. Growing up I used to go out on it with my mom and her dad (my grandfather). I used to spend the night on it and think that was the coolest thing in the world. In more recent years, we haven't been using it as much because it is getting harder for my grandpa to take care of (he is 82 now). But that is why I have stepped it up and decided to take on the role of learning how to sail and how to take care of the boat.

Plenty of standing headroom down below and it sleeps 5. Although I'd say 4 seems more reasonable. Plenty of space, it has a foldable card table, stove, sink, and small bathroom. I don't know too much about the motor. I can tell you it uses a Yanmar inboard engine that has a 15 gallon tank capacity, but that is about all I know. Couldn't tell you the horsepower or anything like that. Sorry! Like I said, I love the boat and I would recommend it to you, only thing is I havent been on enough boats to confidently say it is better than most. One complaint I have heard about the boat is that because they stopped making them awhile ago, it is hard to find specific boat parts. I haven't really ran into that problem yet but I think there are plenty of similar boats that use the same boat parts so idk how big of a deal that is. Hope that helps!

It is great that the boat has some emotional attachment for you. Don't worry about parts; very few parts that commonly need replacing are make and model specific. There are always suitable replacements to be found.

Go out and enjoy the boat, and figure out what upgrades are important to you.

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[jephotog]

Right. I almost forgot about trying the double wrap first. Will do. I always sail with someone else just because I am still getting a feel for sailing. I intend on being able to sail it by myself one day however.

Interesting about the Sun Yacht, I did not know it had such history.

The boat sounds great. My "big boat" in only a foot shorter and is great but no inboard diesel or standing head room. I have always had an interest in the sun because it was designed by Robber Perry. He is one of the most prolific designers of the "fast cruising" boats. I think 3 out of the 20 boats in the US sailboat hall of fame are designed by him.

I started sailing when I was in my 20s and found right away it is fairly easy to sail a boat solo, I am sure you will pick it up quickly. The challenge is getting into and out of a slip by yourself or handling emergencies or bad weather while solo, especially without roller furling. I assume you have no autopilot or this thread would not be needed. It would be my first upgrade in your position. It is the one upgrade you can make for less than $1000 that will really change the way you can handle the boat.

A couple of hints on learning to solo:

• Learn to heave-to
• Bring a friend that knows how to sail or let someone who does not know take the tiller while you handle the sheets. Practice bringing the jib over and wrapping it as fast as you can.
• As you get more comfortable and even if you have crew onboard. Practice part of the day as though you were solo. Have your crew get out of the way or just stand by for backup and you try to handle the boat maneuvers on your own.

 

[SHNOOL]

Size of boat matters in all this, under 27 feet or so, I'd say regular winches, cross sheet, and use CLAM cleats (on an angle vertical below the winch). I've used cams, clams, horns, and jams for this, and the clams are the easiest to release and reset.

As the boat gets bigger, self tailing winches are a must, and yes if you are going to be on a tack for a long time then a horn cleat is a nice addition.

I always used horn cleats as a kid, we used them to race as well, and we did a single loop around the horn, then a figure 8, and never locked it.

My present boat has Barlow 28ST (32 foot C&C) and I like them, but they are actually a bit to big for the boat (require 3/4" line I think, I'm running 7/8 which feels way to heavy, and the STs still seem to slip a bit).

 

[swim06]

The boat sounds great. My "big boat" in only a foot shorter and is great but no inboard diesel or standing head room. I have always had an interest in the sun because it was designed by Robber Perry. He is one of the most prolific designers of the "fast cruising" boats. I think 3 out of the 20 boats in the US sailboat hall of fame are designed by him.

I started sailing when I was in my 20s and found right away it is fairly easy to sail a boat solo, I am sure you will pick it up quickly. The challenge is getting into and out of a slip by yourself or handling emergencies or bad weather while solo, especially without roller furling. I assume you have no autopilot or this thread would not be needed. It would be my first upgrade in your position. It is the one upgrade you can make for less than $1000 that will really change the way you can handle the boat.

A couple of hints on learning to solo:

• Learn to heave-to
• Bring a friend that knows how to sail or let someone who does not know take the tiller while you handle the sheets. Practice bringing the jib over and wrapping it as fast as you can.
• As you get more comfortable and even if you have crew onboard. Practice part of the day as though you were solo. Have your crew get out of the way or just stand by for backup and you try to handle the boat maneuvers on your own.

Wow that is neat trivia about Robert Perry. Thank you so so much for all of the advice and feedback. You would be correct to assume that I have no autopilot. I actually just tried the heave-to maneuver for the first time the last time I went sailing, which was just last week. Unfortunately, we have to start winterizing the boat especially since we are taking it out of the water this year for a paint job and cleaning. Probably only have one more sail left this year. But, next year I will try to sail it a lot more. I think it is an excellent idea to have a crew on board when I am first learning to solo sail because that would allow me to have the backup if needed.

Thanks again for the advice. This is my first post on this forum and I am pleasantly surprised with the amount of feedback I received and everyone being so willing to share their experiences. The sailing community is great!

 

[swim06]

Size of boat matters in all this, under 27 feet or so, I'd say regular winches, cross sheet, and use CLAM cleats (on an angle vertical below the winch). I've used cams, clams, horns, and jams for this, and the clams are the easiest to release and reset.

As the boat gets bigger, self tailing winches are a must, and yes if you are going to be on a tack for a long time then a horn cleat is a nice addition.

I always used horn cleats as a kid, we used them to race as well, and we did a single loop around the horn, then a figure 8, and never locked it.

My present boat has Barlow 28ST (32 foot C&C) and I like them, but they are actually a bit to big for the boat (require 3/4" line I think, I'm running 7/8 which feels way to heavy, and the STs still seem to slip a bit).

I think for now I might play around with wrapping the horn different ways and trying quicker knots because sometimes taking the time to do a full cleat hitch probably is not necessary, especially if I have to come back and trim them in a minute or so anyways. Then maybe next season I will look into adding cam or clam cleats. I appreciate hearing your take, thanks!

 

[SHNOOL]

On this 25 foot (Capri 25) boat and up to a 27 footer, cross sheeting and a set of clams. This was fast, and easy to do. Trimming you grab the line between them pull, then take up the slack (on the high-side winch).

 

[skills4lou]

I'm a fairly new sailor as well. On my boat (San Juan 21) I have yet to use either winch, for anything. Jib sheets run to a track car with an eye and a cam cleat. Very easy to adjust, and the forces involved are easy enough for my 12 yr old to handle without need of a winch. If my wife and I are out by ourselves, she lays down on one cockpit seat and goes to sleep. I can tack single-handed by just giving the sheets a quick flip up to release, then haul in on the new working sheet.
So, is the larger jib on a 27' that much more force that a winch is necessary? Also, someone a way back mentioned never having a knot in a sheet. I was taught to put a figure 8 at the tail end to prevent the sheets flying free. I'm curious why that would be a bad thing? (Sorry to hijack the thread a bit)

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[SHNOOL]

Skills, a 21 foot fractional rig sloop is going to have a handkerchief for a headsail, so I could see not using a winch at all, until it starts getting pretty snotty with wind (probably 20 knots).

To answer your question, yes, it becomes quite a handful as you go up in square footage of headsail. For example thanks to sailboatdata, your headsail at 100% is roughly 90 square feet (slightly bigger than a laser mainsail), whereas the Capri 25 (pictured above) with a 100% is roughly 150 square feet (due to it being a masthead rig, and larger boat). Add to that the picture is rigged for a 155% headsail, which puts it at nearly 225 square feet of headsail. The forces go up considerably with square footage, and its not linear.

There are way smarter people on here than I and could tell you all the forces involved, I can only give you anecdotal evidence, but on my fractional rigged S2 7.9 (a 26 footer) I could man handle the jib (105%) on it with no winch, but the jib (130%) of my masthead rigged Capri 25 (25 footer), always required at least a wrap on the winch, even in only 10 knots wind.

Presently on my C&C 32 (also a masthead rig), I really cannot manually trim the headsail (granted its a 155%) once winds get over 5 knots. However, with the winch, its easy as pie.

References sailboatdata:
San Jaun 21: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/san-juan-21
Capri 25: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/capri-25-catalina

 

[SchockT]

I'm a fairly new sailor as well. On my boat (San Juan 21) I have yet to use either winch, for anything. Jib sheets run to a track car with an eye and a cam cleat. Very easy to adjust, and the forces involved are easy enough for my 12 yr old to handle without need of a winch. If my wife and I are out by ourselves, she lays down on one cockpit seat and goes to sleep. I can tack single-handed by just giving the sheets a quick flip up to release, then haul in on the new working sheet.
So, is the larger jib on a 27' that much more force that a winch is necessary? Also, someone a way back mentioned never having a knot in a sheet. I was taught to put a figure 8 at the tail end to prevent the sheets flying free. I'm curious why that would be a bad thing? (Sorry to hijack the thread a bit)

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My first boat was a Hotfoot 20, and it had a very small jib, but I still found the winch was needed for upwind sailing in stronger winds. People just learning to sail often do not realize how tight the sails need to be for effective close hauled sailing unless they are racing. Even if you don't need to use the handles in the winch it is good to have a couple of wraps on it anyway. That way if the jib is flogging the winch will provide some friction to dampen the flogging a bit. It also acts as a fairlead to direct the sheet to where you are sheeting from.

In terms of stopper knots in sheets, the typical rule of thumb is to always put stopper knots in jib sheets, and never put stopper knots in spinnaker sheets.

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[jephotog]

So, is the larger jib on a 27' that much more force that a winch is necessary? Also, someone a way back mentioned never having a knot in a sheet. I was taught to put a figure 8 at the tail end to prevent the sheets flying free. I'm curious why that would be a bad thing? (Sorry to hijack the thread a bit)

Most people put a stopper knot in the jib sheet. There is less chance of something going wrong with a jib sheet than say a spinnaker or a halyard. It is very inconvenient to have a jib sheet work its way to the bow without your permission.

Yes the jib on a 27 is significantly bigger than a 21 footer as is the forces. I can just about pull the sail without a winch on a 26 footer and even on my 32 footer when needed, but in a lot of wind, the winch becomes necessary. The key difference as boats get bigger is the amount of line on a jib sheet needing to bring in.

The key to tacking smoothly solo.
Prepare your sheets. Prepare the lazy sheet by putting 2-3 wraps on the winch.
Ensure the active sheet is "clean" behind the winch, nothing to cause a tangle.
As the tack begins and you are sure the boat is going to make it around, let active sheet fly, pull it off the winch as fast as you can, pulling upwards while unwinding. If the winds are up and you needed more than a wrap or two to get the sheet in you can "sneak off" (not an official term, just trying to give you an idea) one or more wraps to prepare for the tack.

As soon as the sheet it released start hauling in on the new sheet. If your boat is balanced you can maybe let the tiller do the work for you. Push the tiller over let the lazy sheet go and start hauling in the new sheet as fast as you can and cleat it. Done right on a 27 footer you should be able to bring the jib around before a winch is needed.

One way to control your sheet is to use the winch to your advantage. A rough estimate is a winch with 3 wraps has at least 3 times the friction as a single wrap. I usually put two wraps on to pull the jib over then throw the 3rd one on before cleating it. 3 wraps and a single wrap or two on the cleat should hold the jib.

If you are going to cross sheet as SHNOOL suggested the 3rd wrap is across the cockpit on the high side. THen you can finish grinding the sheet in from the comfort of the high side.

Another trick is just get the sheet over as far as you can wrapped and cleated. Once the boat is back sailing in the new tack, you can bring in the sail by pointing slightly into the wind so the jib luffs then yank the sheet in further then fall back off to closehauled.

 

[MikeOReilly]

Indeed, forces go up with the square. So it's an exponential growth, not linear. I started sailing on a 22-footer. Here there were tiny winches on the main, but they were never needed. Then I went up to a 26-footer. Here the mains are still pretty small, and were occassionally needed, but most of the time one wrap and a manual pull was usually more than adequate.

On my 34-footer the winches became larger, and more important, but still often one or two wraps and a pull got the job done much of the time. The winch handle came out more often, but not always.

Now on my heavy 37-footer, it's rare to be able to do anything without many wraps and cranking of the winch handle. Even light airs easily overpowers puny human strength. This, BTW, is why I choose to secure the tail ends to my horn cleats once trim is stable. It provides an easy backup should a failure occur.

 

[VIEXILE]

Twas a spinnaker sheet and a pro captain for Hinckley. Very embarrassing. This was a long, long time ago, and they paid for the damage. But I never put a stopper knot in a sheet. I'd rather recover a free sheet than get hauled somewhere I don't want to go.

All of this discussion can be qualified by the boat you're sailing. I wrap the (non ST winch) on the old Bristol 35 yawl, clam cleat it and toss it around the horn cleat. I don't WANT to have to work it off the horn cleat on short notice if it's tight as a drum. Now I have ST's on the Tartan 37, no need for clam cleats, and a standing cleat aft.

I have cam cleats on the companionway with traveler control lines led aft. But I also have a couple clam cleats either side of the companionway. Contrary to what I read above, none of my 40-50 year old clam cleats show significant wear and hold a line nicely, release when I want. But there's always a horn cleat nearby.

 

[SHNOOL]

I will argue semantics with jephotog...
I'd never wrap more than 1 wrap around the leeward winch on a tack (overrides above a single wrap happen frequently in a tack if you do, which can be dangerous under load to untangle).

I solo sail - a lot. So its wrap a single wrap around the leeward winch, start your tack (release the cleat or self-tail, but not the whole spool yet), wait until the jib/genoa backs wind. In one motion, flip the stack of line off the former windward winch (if you practice it a lot, you can use a lasso motion and flip it off), and sheet the coming windward winch with the other hand. Take up the slack and follow through into the tack. If you are coming close on the wind again, as soon as practical, add 1, 2 or 3 wraps (and if you have it the tail around the ST). Trim your main, and then trim your jib/genoa. Remember overshoot your tack a bit, your aim is to power up and harden up (direction, and sails) as you gain back your lost speed to the tack.

This is how you do it solo. Obviously if you have crew, you can synchronize your crew by teaching each member a step and timing, and then you can focus on your smooth turning through the tack such that you lose less speed. This is how we'd train new race crew. Forcing one crew to "always release," one to "always sheet" the one wrap method, and then the releaser became the extra wrap and tailer while the always sheet crew would winch.

Training mainsheet trimmers is way more involved, but you get the idea. There are tons of books on all this, and are way more precise than I. Of course timing to puffs/lulls is a job, and dumping and pumping the traveler is a task, and sometimes you break up mainsheet trim, and traveler (depending on size of boat).

Can get into all kinds of other trim duties, such as vang, and genoa cars, and backstay, but above are the basics.

 

[hnash53]

I've always used cam cleats for jib sheet control. I sail in a small bay and am rarely on a long tack... so there are very frequent tacks. Rather than using horn cleats/jam cleats which require a wrap around, I've found the cam cleats easier to use. The V-cleats/clam cleats can work, too... but I've always found with V-cleats the line often falls back down into the V and locks the line down when I need it to be free.
Also, I've found cam cleats easier since I sail single handed most of the time. I usually get swivel cam cleats or extreme angle cams so that no matter where I am in the cockpit, I can control the jib.

Experience will teach you what works best in your situation. Just get out there and do it.