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Inquiring minds want to know!

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From Pardey website:

Series Drogues: Can They Work Like a Para-anchor?

We have had several folks ask if a Series Drogue could be used in place of a para-anchor. They also ask our opinion of this gear for storm usage. Though many people talk about series drogues we do not recall meeting anyone who has actually used them in storm situations. The series drogue appears to present a problem when it comes time to recover it. A few months ago we interviewed David Armstrong a New Zealand sailor who lay to a para-anchor for three days during a passage from New Zealand to Tahiti on his 40 foot race boat. Part of that report makes interesting reading before you consider adding a series drogue to your list of cruising gear.
David not only cruises on his own boat but voyages with Henk Haazan on his 50 foot steel Artic island exploration vessel Tiama. As the para-anchor recommended for a boat of this size is not only expensive but large and potentially difficult to handle, David generously offered to make up a series drogue which he felt could be used either over the stern or over the bow. The drogue consisted of more than 40 cones on 250 feet of 1-3/8" diameter line. Once at sea David and Henk decided to test this while running in winds of 20 knots. The series drogue did slow the boat down to about two knots and held her almost directly before the wind. But, as we have read before with the series drogues, retrieval was extremely difficult. "Six strong crew took almost 3 hours to retrieve it and we were totally exhausted even though there was only 20 knots of wind. I doubt a series drogue could be retrieved in 30 knots of wind."

Sailing with Lin & Larry Pardey

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Note: Jordan Series Drogue
 

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Maybe I'm being a little dense here, but why couldn't you attach a couple of floats to the thing and just cut it loose when seas permitted? Then you can circle about and pick it up alongside with little way on.

Given the general idea is free and the fact that one can make them with six hours of effort on a sewing machine, is it ridiculous to consider them disposable post-storm? I wouldn't want to dump a para-anchor-type sea anchor (too expensive) but a Jordan series drogue is simply a hundred cloth cones on the sort of line you can easily replace.

Or am I missing something?
 

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I have a Jordan Series Drogue for my boat. I spoke with Don Jordan regarding it and the specifications for one for my boat. He's a pretty interesting fellow to talk to.

The JSD is not designed to be used as an anchor-it is a drogue, and is designed to be deployed only from the stern of a boat. The drogue described above is a series drogue, but not a Jordan Series Drogue, as a Jordan series drogue would have a lot more cones. The JSD for my boat is one of the smaller ones and has 130 cones on 270' of line. Line would be 5/8" tapering to ½" for the last 75 cones.

I would not consider them "disposable" for several reasons. First, "disposing" of one violates the MARPOL international treaty. Second, chances are likely that you might need it again, and unless you've got a dozen tucked away in the bilge, disposing of it is rather stupid and foolish. Third, I also don't believe you can make one in six hours on a sewing machine. While you maybe able to make the cones in that period of time, you still require much more time to attach the cones to the line or rode.

A trip line isn't recommended for a JSD as it can interfere with the proper operation of it. Retrieving the JSD is an issue since the cones tend to open as you try to retreive it. Attaching a float doesn't really help you any, since either way, you still have to retrieve it-and it is fairly long-almost 300' on my boat if you count the bridle for it. You really just need to winch it in a bit at a time. It really isn't recommended that you recover one until the wind has basically died down quite a bit.

If you are racing, and need to get back up to speed quickly, you could always turn the boat and sail in the direction of the drogue deployment, and lift it aboard as it slackens-however, you'd have to do so quickly, as the weighted end of the JSD will tend to pull it down if the tension on it disappears. That would probably allow you to retreive it a bit more quickly, but it would take some brute force to do so. :D

A Jordan Series Drogue is a fairly bulky item... being that it is, in my case, 270' of 5/8" rope with 130 6" cones attached to it, and 15' of chain, and 40' of bridle. I doubt that anyone is generally going to be carrying more than one aboard a vessel.
 

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I would expect that, from the Pardey's viewpoint, they would want more than a one time sea anchor or drogue. I would also speculate that they would be ready to resume sailing prior to conditions completely abating. Numerous oceanic areas are more remarkable for their brief lulls than they are for the rarity of heavy weather. Bringing 250' of line, even at diameters less than 1-3/8", back on board with the cones would be taxing and I wonder if most boats would have a capstan on board of a size to handle it complete with the cones. I'm not entirely sure you could buoy it and have it still perform it's job. The Pardey's sail without motor and so, manoeuvering about for recovery would be somewhat complicated, if even possible.
 

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Thanks for the clarifications. I didn't mean to imply that it would be a good idea to dump the series drogue, but that it would be less economically prohibitive to do so than a para-anchor style of sea anchor.

I like the idea of the Jordan series drogue due to my fairly heavy aft bollards and the fact I would need a bridle of some scope to clear my wind vane. Given my windage aft, I think if I needed to "slow down" in a following sea, this sort of drogue would provide exactly the sort of non shock loading drag I would want in a bad blow.

I have enough purchase points (a crane off the stern, various hard points to which I could lash tackle) that getting it aboard would be, if not easy, easier than on some styles of boat, hence my interest.
 

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The bridle for a JSD is recommended that it be 2.5x the width between the attachment points IIRC.
 

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Idiens-

I have deployed it to test it... but have never had to use it in a heavy weather situation on my boat. Recovering it isn't too bad...just tedious and time-consuming IMHO.
 

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Hey Sailaway 21, I noticed the comment worthy of Homer Simpson at the bottom of your post - "America-Saving Europe's Ass Since 1917".
So that's what you call it ?
Let's see now....a huge nation......rich in natural resources.....very economically secure.....sits on it's ass for years....watching a psychotic dictator murder his way across Europe....all the while sitting on the fence and pontificating about whether or not it's any of it's business (never stopped you in Vietnam, Iraq etc) and then after years of bitter fighting by which time even the lunatic dictator is starting to think he has bitten off more than he can chew.........it bravely comes swaggering to the rescue.
52 million people died in WW2 alone. Imagine how much suffering could have been spared if you had gotten of your lazy fat asses sooner !
 

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Clayjay-

Your post is way off-topic... if you have a beef with Sailaway21's signature, raise it your own thread in the off-topic forum.

The Europeans often treat the USA as an outsider...so why should we involve ourselves in an internal European conflict, unless is starts to directly affect us??? WWI was a purely European problem initially... wasn't our turf, wasn't our war. Last I checked, there was no psychotic dictator murdering his way across Europe in WWI. That came much later... in WWII...

WWII was a war that had two components to it... an imperialist Japanese emperor who thought he had the divine right to rule most of Asia, which wasn't a problem until they came along and bombed the neutral US at Pearl Harbor. We've never taken kindly to backstabbers. The other problem was a maniac named Hitler, but was primarily a European problem until everyone but the Brits fell on their faces.

BTW, last I checked, the US also went in and helped pull most of Western Europe and Japan out of the toilet financially and helped re-build those countries following WWII without so much as a thank you for the most part.

Finally, when the US did get off its fat lazy ass and go in to try and stop Saddam Hussein, even as misguided as it was to do so, where the hell was the rest of the world outside of the Brits??? You can't have it both ways... either the US is the policeman of the world and is supposed to step in, or it isn't and shouldn't step in unless it is involved...

I also, notice you don't say where you are from... I'm an American and damn proud of it, even if I think GWB is a complete idiot...so piss off.
 

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Well actually I am a Brit living in Australia. Not that that has anything to do with anything.
Thats the trouble with America you see, you are so insular. If it isn't going on in America then it isn't news. Have you heard the Princess of Wales is dead yet ??
And speaking of that good 'ol boy Saddam......where the hell where you when he was gassing the kurds....oh sorry, that was before there was oil (read MONEY) involved.
Hitler and the Nazis were always going to be a WORLD problem.

What did that retard that runs your country have to say about climate change - "I won't sign anything that takes jobs away from Americans". Great !
The whole planet suffers..........but at least the ceptics have jobs !

I'm so glad to hear you are DAMN proud to be American SD.....someone's gotta be I guess.

HAVE A NICE DAY !!!!
 

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clayjay said:
Hey Sailaway 21, I noticed the comment worthy of Homer Simpson at the bottom of your post - "America-Saving Europe's Ass Since 1917".
So that's what you call it ?
Let's see now....a huge nation......rich in natural resources.....very economically secure.....sits on it's ass for years....watching a psychotic dictator murder his way across Europe....all the while sitting on the fence and pontificating about whether or not it's any of it's business (never stopped you in Vietnam, Iraq etc) and then after years of bitter fighting by which time even the lunatic dictator is starting to think he has bitten off more than he can chew.........it bravely comes swaggering to the rescue.
52 million people died in WW2 alone. Imagine how much suffering could have been spared if you had gotten of your lazy fat asses sooner !
YOU ARE OUT OF ORDER BIG TIME. This is not the forum for venting your spleen, and I for one found the tone of your post to be offencive.

Quote "Well actually I am a Brit living in Australia." Quote. Well that explains it .
 

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SD, and your post was not off-topic? :)

Jordan Series drogue is on a shortlist of thinks I would like to install on my boat when I get her out of slavery (my poor beauty have to work as charter boat for another 2 years).
So, I am very interested to hear about the recovery issues.

My boat have a spade rudder and I think sea anchor (from the bow) may make it brake easier in bad storm.
The drogue (from the the stern) is (I hope) easier on my rudder as the boat moves forward and not backward.
Yes I know some would say that with a sea anchor it does not move at all, but if you put the waves and rode slack into the equation - you can expect significant forward/backward movements.

My idea of recovery (I read all I could about JSD about a year ago) is this:
After the wind is not that bad I could us the engine in reverse to stop the boat and try to recover the drogue with the help of a winch.
There are two main dangers I see:
1) reversing too much and get the drogue in the prop (ouch),
2) the cones would tangle into the winch and create a mess.
As a last resort I was thinking of using two shorter ropes:
1) attach one rope to the drogue and winch until the drogue is close to the winch on coach roof.
2) attach the other rope to drogue as far back as reachable and winch it to the other winch,
3) release the first rope . .
4) repeat the process (perhaps 20 or more times).
But this is all theory. I never saw JSD in real life. And I never tried to recover anything heavy on open ocean after a heavy storm - I guess the waves should be still quite big - so comments are welcome.
 

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I get the general sense that you can use the waves themselves to haul it in gradually, because at some points the cones and line closest to the stern will be slack, at which point you can haul in a few feet and cleat off.

But I can't see this being a fast job.
 

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It isn't a fast job... it isn't all that complicated either... Tomaz's idea of using two lines works fairly well, as that is what I did... rolling hitch to the drogue and haul it in until the line is too short... then do it with a second line and alternate. The line I used is a bit longer, and I actually run it forward to a block at the base of the mast and then back to the drogue... that way I can haul in a longer section of drogue between rolling hitches. :D
 

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A tripping line for a JSD would be good, but if deployed with the drogue, it might twist around it and close the cones and no longer work as a tripping line.
So how about deploying a tripping line when you want to bring the drogue back on board? How? - The same way as with a stuck anchor. A loop of chain on the end of a long rope with a small parachute drogue (or bucket or maybe a fender) attached to the loop. The idea being to let the boat's forward motion carry the bucket and the chain loop back down the JSD until it reaches the end. Ooops! A grappling iron needs to be on the end of the JSD to catch the chain loop. When it does, haul in the tripping line.
Might it work? Or would it simply snare on the cones? Maybe a ring or funnel would be better at reaching the end sooner than a chain loop.
 

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Idiens-

It would probably damage the JSD far more than anything else. The cones are numerous and fairly small, and made of relatively lightweight materials.
 

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Tripping line:
My first idea when I saw the JSD was to install a tripping line inside the cones and only attach it firm at the end - near at the chain . This way the cones would collapse and pile on top of each other. so they would not provide the usual resistance.
But the arrangement would need stronger rings or something at the cone point.
I am also not sure of it would not tangle during use anyway, so I gave up the idea until I actually see how it all looks and make some tests.
 
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