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Jeffs post is spot on. Well said

Oh come on.....

I shouldnt have to feel the need to defend myself for making my decision based on the facts right in front of me. I have been forced to by otherds who ahve criticisised what I did unecessarily. Why would I include any caveats like "I made the decision I did because of the information I had available to me. This is not the right decision for all."

Julie, Maybe your posts concerning the Captain of the Bounty should also include the same caveat declaration like I beleive the Captain of the Bounty was irresponsible and "I made the decision I did because of the information I had available to me. This is not the right decision for all."

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Maybe those of us who singlehand should put a caveat about singlehanding after all neubies are listening and its a safety topic.

What I interpret this statement is you are saying people who stayed in their boats are setting a bad example in an attempted politically correct way. I dont agree with the premise.

This was not a Cat2 or 3. I Have been through 5 or 6 of them on land and cant even imagine staying on a boat. I would have acted differently .

So let me ask the ultimate question here.....how many people on this thread that spent time on their boats....and there were a few here and on CF....got hurt or died??????????
NONE .

Why is that you ask.... because those of us who did either had to and were very diligent to monitor the storm, the storms intensity never was a s bad in our quadrant, if we were in a bad part of the storm, we knew we had enough experuience to ride it out as we had no choices. or lastly, those who didnt have the experience, were in a bad part of the storm and knew they were putting themselves in too much jeopardy...tied up , got pulled or left their boats and went to higher ground. That doesnt also mean in retrospect like Jeff we wished we had done some things differently

I have yet to hear from anyone who stayed abourd, and I was one, tell others that this is the ultimate correct way to handle the situation. None of us feel that way. I felt secure enough that I had an alternative to get to higher ground immediately to make the decision I did.

One of the things I found from being on board was that there were lulls and time to adjust things and add chafe. The wind especially came in spurts not all the time. The rocking of the boat and the fact that there were two lines at every point made it possible to take the starin off of some the lines which had been taking the brunt. In my case specifically the wind clocked around 270 degrees allowing me to slacken the leeward side line to allow the boat to stabilize as the tide rose above normal at the last 12 high tides. I was able to position my boat somewhat in the first 12 hours so the wind blew right at my bow, thuis putting less stress on the lines ( kind of like what would happen at anchor. I was able to add and adjust cafe gear. I now know with the increase or decrease in tides that a 3 foot length of chafe gear on each line is inadequate if you are not going to stay and adjust lines in a larger blow. In my instandce as I reported through the storm the winds blew 45 stead for almost 16 hours...gusted to 65/68 also. It was probably the limit of my being able to adjust under pressure.
Hey Dave, I think what Julie meant is that many new sailors look onto the posts of well experienced sailors And might follow their advice. I would hope anyone would research it themselves, and I am not an expert on these storms, but I do try to be cautious about what I say. I believe most others have done the same, as well as yourself. Just an err to caution might be advised.

Btw, u mentioned you have done some major hurricanes. Were you in Florida or otherwise? I am assuming you didn't get Charlie. Ivan maybe or Katrina? Ivan was a bear.
 

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Jeffs post is spot on. Well said

......we knew we had enough experuience to ride it out as we had no choices.......

...... or lastly, those who didnt have the experience, were in a bad part of the storm and knew they were putting themselves in too much jeopardy...tied up , got pulled or left their boats and went to higher ground......
Chef,

Not to keep hitting at you, but why do you do things like the above?

On the one hand, you state that you had experience enough to ride it out....when and where did you get that experience?

And on the other hand, you insult every person who chose to not stay aboard by saying those who pulled or tied up and then left their boats for higher ground didn't have the experience (to stay aboard). So if I tie my boat up securely, leave and seek higher ground it's because I not as good a sailor as you (i.e. experienced). Maybe it's because I have more sense than you....just saying.

Now you are clobbering Julie because she said that it would be a good idea to remind others that what you are doing is based on your own ideas, and that they (the others) should carefully consider their own situation before doing what you are doing. What's wrong with that?

In my own slip, where I leave the boat for hurricanes, I am sheltered to the east, and north, a bit open to the west, and have a 3 mile fetch to SW. Typically, we will get a surge of 8-9 ft. while the wind is from E-N-NW. The pier will be under water so you will not be able to get off the boat if you have chosen to stay aboard. And when the wind comes out of the W and especially the SW that boat is going to be pitching up and down so hard that you will not be able to do anything down below except hang on, and there is no way, with the wind on the starboard quarter, that you are going to adjust a line or put a new one on after the wind gets around 50-60 mph, I haven't seen it when wind is higher, being inexperienced, you know, because I've left and am relatively comfortable at home. I know how to tie the boat to keep it in the center of the slip, and how to accommodate the surge up and down. I allow for increased stretching of lines due to high wind forces and use multiple lines...26 in a spider web with everything reduntant and considering chafe. I hope I'm not jinxing myself by saying this. And typically the winds are around Cat I by the time it gets to me.

But as someone else has said, local conditions will determine what one does, and then of course, if you are inexperienced..... Of course, I've been doing this for 24 years, and here in eastern NC, we've seen a lot of hurricanes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 · (Edited)
And on the other hand, you insult every person who chose to not stay aboard by saying those who pulled or tied up and then left their boats for higher ground didn't have the experience (to stay aboard). So if I tie my boat up securely, leave and seek higher ground it's because I not as good a sailor as you (i.e. experienced). Maybe it's because I have more sense than you....just saying.-NCC320.
Thats not what I said at all, stop trying to read into things.....i merely said I felt I had enough experience to stay aboard given the conditions I would be facing and I had an out...I could leave in a minutes notice to higher ground.and that each individual should decide whether they felt comfortable or not with their experience. I certainly do not knock anyone who pulled or left their boats...they knew their circumstances better than I did.

This is what I really said previously in this thread

Evaluate your situation based upon all the best information you can find and make your decision accordingly. I would assume you do that in all situations and weather ones especially. Dont let someone behind a computer make a blanket statement telling you what to do because they dont know your experience, your conditions, your availabilities, or your alternatives. All options should be considered and the one which s the least risky in terms of safety should be taken. If you have no experience in dealing with heavy weather then you decide that way. If you feel that you are safe, but want to gain some experience safely, then decide that way. You know what is best for you after all not some internet pundit. There are many books, videos available to learn this also-chef2sail
Now you are clobbering Julie because she said that it would be a good idea to remind others that what you are doing is based on your own ideas, and that they (the others) should carefully consider their own situation before doing what you are doing. What's wrong with that-NC330
I didnt clobber Julie...I respect her opinion, but mine is different and that apparently is not acceptable to you

Maybe it's because I have more sense than you....just saying.-NCC320
Is this statement considered clobbering cause its surley more ponted and personal than what I wrote responding to Julie

Btw, u mentioned you have done some major hurricanes. Were you in Florida or otherwise? I am assuming you didn't get Charlie. Ivan maybe or Katrina? Ivan was a bear. Crusingdad
Cruisingdad the two worst storms I experienced were when I was in Mobile Bay. Alabama for Hurrican Ida and Savannah, Georgia for Hurrican Hugo. Both times I was on a boat, and both time when it became apparent that these storms were going to be crushers I went ashore. I also was in Gulfport Mississippi 2 days after Katrina for almost 2 weeks helping feed people from the devastaion that storm caused. It left an undelable mark on me. I am a voluenteer for the Red Cross and my brother is one of the higher ranking memebers of the organization so I have gone to some incredible disasters like Oklahoma City and some hurricanes over the last 25 years.

Please explain what my responsibilities are to newbies and other people and what they read. I want to see if it is what I think it is. I am sure it is quite similar. Trying to remind me what it is, or making me put disclaimers on what I say isnt necessary, as you will all be there to correct and pounce on me if it doesnt fit your model of the world.

CD after all you are the one who reminded me that this is only the internet...not real life ( your words to me over the phone)...something I had lost sight of a few months ago. I will give my opinion, it is only mine, it may fit in with your thinking, and it may not. You decide if it does and use it accordingly. It isnt necessary to go after something you dont beleive.

If you want to put disclaimers on everthing dangerous or has risk you have chosen the wrong sport. Sailing is a form of risk management in many ways. Those who know me know I am not a risk taker at all. But thats by my standard not yours and I understand that. Maybe you shouldnt live in a hurricane zone.....thats a risk. No one has gotten on you case about that.

Lets remember how this started. I stayed on my boat...my decision...my life...my consequences. I posted through the storm which really got a few of your panties in a bunch. I never told others to do as I did. In fact I said it was only my decision based on what I saw. I thought it might be a good experience for some...even a newbie to get reports of what it was like as well as me gain some experience in a somewhat conterolled environment I could get out of at my dock.

Since then I have gotten a raft of s..t for what I did. Been given the Darwin award, been called stupid,and been told that i pocess no sense and that I am not a good example to other sailors and should pt a disclaimer on my posts. Guys/ Girls..its one mans opinion...opinions are not right or wrong ( so I dont think necessarily what I did was right for everyone) but what I do have the right to do is to have an opinion, even if it differes from yours or the majority.

Can we get back to the lesson learned from Sandy as thats what the original OP(me) started this thread with not a value judgement of me and how/ what I post.
 

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Please explain what my responsibilities are to newbies and other people and what they read. I want to see if it is what I think it is. I am sure it is quite similar. Trying to remind me what it is, or making me put disclaimers on what I say isnt necessary, as you will all be there to correct and pounce on me if it doesnt fit your model of the world.
Er-hmm. Well, and weren't you the one who just said not to make assumptions, or some words to that effect? My comments were missread by you. You are the one who just pounced, Dave. I guess I was under the impression we were all having a cordial conversation.

I will discuss the rest of it in a PM to you.

Brian
 

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Chef Dave,

Have a look at these photos of the boats that were at the Raritan Yacht Club: A sad fairwell - Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians
You will need to click on the gallery linked to in that thread - not my photos.
All the keel boats at that club were torn to bits - take my word for it.
Then tell me that suggesting to these owners that staying on, or anywhere near, their boats is a reasonable idea when a hurricane is bearing down on them.

There are many reasons why your decision to stay on your boat was more reasonable then say, someone moored in Raritan Bay. They had a tidal surge of over 10' combined with ocean swells that made short work of creating the damage you can see in the pics I tried to link.
For starters, the normal tidal range of the Chessy is minimal. 1' to 2' seems the norm from my experiences.
The mid Chessy was NOT on the wrong quadrant of this storm and thus storm surge was not really a big factor there. To see how bad storm surge could have affected you just check on what Hurricane Isabel did to the Bay back in 2003: Hurricane Isabel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Did you also stay on your boat for Hurricane Isabel?

The mid Chessy is a pretty long way from the ocean so ocean swells can't reach the mid Chessy under most circumstances. This is not to say that the Chessy does not get whipped up into an uncomfortable mess - it does, even with the reduced fetch.

As Jeff_H suggested, so much of this is about your personal circumstances and where you are in relation to the approaching 'weather'. In this case your decision to stay on your boat was not a fatal choice. I'm happy for that. I just don't think that suggesting to everyone they should stay on their boat the next time a tropical system approaches their area is at all prudent.
 

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Jeez Caleb! Those are some nasty pics, dude!

Thats not what I said at all, stop trying to read into things.....i merely said I felt I had enough experience to stay aboard given the conditions I would be facing and I had an out...

Please explain what my responsibilities are to newbies and other people and what they read.

Since then I have gotten a raft of s..t for what I did...
Chef, honestly, with your posts, you do tend to build that raft yourself. Try not to be so snippy and I bet people will give you more room. The bottom line is that if you have a bunch of people saying the same thing - you should at least think about the critique.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Damd caleb,,,,had my boat been up there Id have been long gone and not on it

Try not to be so snippy and I bet people will give you more room-smackdaddy
Smacky...
you are probably right,
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 · (Edited)
I apoligize to everyone if my posts have been to strident. I will try to improve
I have included JulieMor suggestion in my signiture

Dave
 

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What seems to have occured in Sandy posts is the mentality of some on SN to snap judge others for decisions that they are making while under the gun of this storm. If you notice most of the most strident of opinions come from those jockeying for position at their computer desks not from those who REALLY had to deal with the conditions. My observations those in the "kill zone" of this storm seem accepting and understand that they had to make decisions based on their best knowledge of the situation and the conditions they faced in each individual situation with the reasources they had available.

Some had the availability to run to protected areas. Some had the availability to haul. Some had the availability to leave their boats ties up and find a hotel or lodging, some had the availability of a mooring.

You have one group who wants to give "Darwin" awards for anyone who stayed on their vessel.
You have another group who insists its best practice to put you boat up out of the water
You have another group who stays woith their boats and makes decisions based on conditions
You have another group who ties up to a fixed dock
You have another group who ties up to a floating dock.
Give to this charity no this one isnt worth, but mine are

My question is not which one of these are correct, because in my mind that needs to be deternibed by each individual captian while facing his/ her situations

My observation is that the people who passed judgement so quickly and criticised the actions of those who were truly in harms way did nothing to help the situation and in fact were like unresquested backround noise or VHF static. This kind of behavior is an example of the worst of the human side IMHO. There is plenty of time to "learn the lessons" of this Sandy.

Personally I felt in harms way ( turned out I was 100 miles south or due west of the worst devastatiion ). Had I not taken prudent actions my boat would have been damaged or destroyed, I by no means was in the worst Kill zone of this strorm, but could have been with one small jog of it. Most on here were truly supportuve in our comming through unscathed and concerned about us, our families, and our vessels. I have many friends on here I have met through my sailing travels, talked to in person, or even just through here I was waiting to hear from hoping they were ok. I am releived that almost all have come through and are accounted for.

My heart is heavy with the scenes from Staten Island and fuirther nolrth as I see the havoc and hardship this has caused. As you sit in you chairs please give to the charity of your CHOICE to help those who need it. They really do.

That should be the priority now, helping those with broken lives, not afixing blame, their will be plenty of time for that later.

Dave
I thought this post was pointing out an excess of judgement and a call to put that aside for now and try to support those pour souls that lost much or everything. I'm really very disappointed in the direction the thread has taken, even more so that it seems that it can't seem to get back on track. Since its direction seems unalterable, I'll comment as a "newbie" (which I am) that Julie was refering to.

Yes, newbies are watching. If the others are like me then they are reading how perceived experienced sailors handle a broad range of conditions, events, situations, and yes, storms. The only action that I've read so far that has been stated as a hard, fast action to take in a serious storm has been to secure the boat and head for high ground. I have neither read a direct statement nor inferred from any statement that it is reccomended to stay aboard. Everybody has an opinion. I am learning a lot by reading the posts that ALL of you are post on here.

Julie, thank you for the concern about how new sailors may take statements made on the forum. As for myself, I don't feel the need for everybody to be politically correct or to speak as though their every word is law. I read what is presented, think about it, and either apply it to myself or discard it. I make my own decisions and no matter who may be advising me, if I think it's bad advice, I WILL NOT follow it. Period. And whether or not anybody else likes it, it's my decision to make, not theirs so it is a mute point. I assume that most adults feel the same way and take what they hear or read in the same way.

To the OP, good on you for calling and supporting. I don't know anyone in the affected areas but my thoughts and sympothies go out to them. I read an article on Yahoo news the other day that some relief workers were turned away because they were not union. I really hope that the recovery doesn't take that tone or that relief agencies don't fall to arguing over unimportant details like is happenning in this thread. I wish all of those affected here a speedy recovery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Good post Dean. Nice to hear your perceptions and opinions. Whether newbie or oldbie, we can all learn from each other. Thanks also for trying to get the thread back on track.

Dave
 
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okay, back on ignore.
Being the incumbent "Sailnet's Most Loveable Troll" for the past few years, I gotta say that "Ignore Notification Posts", or INPs, have always been my favorite in the oxymoronic column. I've been the recipient of plenty of them!

[The above is my opinion only. Newbies shouldn't necessarily construe it as a Biblical command...although they could do much worse. In fact, anyone that has the temerity to ignore my opinion on ignoring will probably be crushed in Kansas by a battered Searay from Hoboken falling from the sky. When this happens, they will be ignored, newbie or not, and I will be sure to let them know it. Just sayin'.]

At least peace will reign once again.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
 

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Smack, the notification was for the edification of the moderators to prevent a trip to the woodshed, but thanks.
Oh, and congrats on finding a way to make it all about you while simultaneously adding nothing to the conversation and concurrently rehijacking a recaptured thread.

That, folks, is quality trolling. Whether it is lovable depends entirely on how fuzzy you like your signal to noise ratio.
 

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C'mon dude, I mentioned Hoboken! You have to admit that was a brilliant segue right back to the topic.

So, my post was really more a jaunty-rest-stop-pull-off-for-a-package-of-peanuts than a sinister-attention-whoring-trollification-rehijack-of-recaptured-innocence. I just thought the INP was funny because I've seen so many of those in the past.

All in good fun, dude.
 

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I apoligize to everyone if my posts have been to strident. I will try to improve
I have included JulieMor suggestion in my signiture

Dave
For the record Dave, I was never insulted or hurt by your posts. We all have our opinions, certainly me included, and our passion for what we believe should never be misconstrued as being insulting or intended to hurt.

I only know you from this forum but what I do know of you tells me you have a good heart. Good hearts never do intentional harm.

The sharing of opinions can be, if you let them, a great learning experience. I have learned many things in my short time here and some of what I have learned has come from you Dave. Thank you.

Julie
 

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This thread (probably) originated because a forum member started a thread that basically stated that "anyone" who stayed with their vessel during "any" hurricane, for any reason, was a fool who needlessly endangered others.

I replied that this is painting with too broad of a brush, and that there are many circumstances to consider.

A separate thread, 7 pages later and that's exactly where we are now.

I noticed that no one responded to my comment in the previous thread:

A friend of mine has sold all of his worldly posessions and moved his entire family of 4 (two young children) aboard a Halberg-Rassy 53, and departed on their world cruise. They weathered the storm at anchor, because that is their home.

By Frogwatch's definition, my friend is a fool. He has endangered his family, and countless rescue personnel who would have had to retrieve them. I can extrapolate (although Frog did not specifically say this) that Frogwatch would consider my friend a fool for embarking upon a world cruise with his family, and putting his two young children at risk, sailing upon the open sea, where they will undoubtably encounter heavy weather.
-----------------------------------------------------

Here's my bottom line (again):

1. There are way too many variables to universally pronounce anyone a "fool" for weathering a storm aboard their boat.

2. (For Julie) None of us who rode it out, are recommending that course of action to anyone else. It was our decision, and only YOU can decide how to handle your situation.

3. (For Julie) Even if I screamed at the top of my lungs, that you should weather all storms aboard your boat, I am no one of any importance, and it is incumbent upon the reader to do their due diligence and ultimately make his/her own decisions regarding his/her vessel. I refuse to put an "idiot clause" in my signature line.

YOU are responsible for YOUR vessel and your actions. That's why you're the "skipper". Make no mistake, you are the skipper regardless of whether your boat is a Catalina 22 or a Hylas 70. You don't get to blame it on "some guy on the internet" whose advice didn't work out for you.

Lastly, I cannot speak for anyone else but I can tell you that if I make a decision to weather a storm on my boat and it turns out to be the wrong decision, I will make every effort to save my own life, and will not call emergency services to retrieve me in the middle of a storm. I am the skipper, and I will have to live with the consequences of my decision.

It's not a matter of bravado, it's mainly the simple fact that if the storm is that bad, they'll tell me that there's nothing they can do for me anyway.
 

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And here is my bottom line...

For much of my career I was a construction foreman, general foreman, superintendent or project manager. In those positions I was responsible for the safety of the people who worked for me. I have seen countless incidents where, if there isn't a good safety program in place, injuries escalate.

I've had safety drilled into my head. It's there to stay. So forgive me if I bring some of that here. Certainly, we are all adults and we are all capable (or should be) of being responsible for ourselves. I won't bore anyone here with stories of stupid things I've seen adults do but I will say they taught me that there's nothing wrong with exercising caution and every once in a while reminding those around you to be a little more careful. If I see you standing on the top of a ladder, please don't be offended if I say, "Maybe you should get a taller ladder."

Understand that my natural tendencies to express my concern for the safety of others does not translate into me thinking I have to be mama bear to my cubs or that you just don't have enough sense to come in from out of the rain. I'm just a victim of "be safe" brainwashing. ;)
 

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This thread (probably) originated because a forum member started a thread that basically stated that "anyone" who stayed with their vessel during "any" hurricane, for any reason, was a fool who needlessly endangered others.......

There are way too many variables to universally pronounce anyone a "fool" for weathering a storm aboard their boat.

YOU are responsible for YOUR vessel and your actions. That's why you're the "skipper". Make no mistake, you are the skipper regardless of whether your boat is a Catalina 22 or a Hylas 70. You don't get to blame it on "some guy on the internet" whose advice didn't work out for you.
Let's see.....

Originally, we had a poster telling of his exploits in riding out the hurricane aboard his boat...

Next, the thought was anyone who stayed with their vessel during any hurricane, for any reason, was a fool.....

But now, we have transitioned to the idea that anyone who stayed with their vessel during any hurricane, for any reason, is a genius (or something similar).

How did that happen?

It probably doesn't make any difference what is posted as the final best option...Sailors as a group are a bunch of hardheads who don't listen to any advice, good or bad, and just charge ahead doing whatever they want to do, irregardless of advice. Those who will attempt to ride out hurricanes will definitely have the best sea stories if they survive, and some won't survive, but many will. And the rest of us, who sought safe port to weather the storm will continue to listen in awe, unless of course, we die from being hit by a falling tree in our safe refuge. But I think I, for one, will choose to do what I can for the boat before the storm, wish it well, and seek higher ground to wait out the storm.

And in the end, it is really that each owner is responsible for his boat and his actions.
 

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Let's see.....

Originally, we had a poster telling of his exploits in riding out the hurricane aboard his boat...
Who said that? Not me.

Next, the thought was anyone who stayed with their vessel during any hurricane, for any reason, was a fool.....
Yes...

But now, we have transitioned to the idea that anyone who stayed with their vessel during any hurricane, for any reason, is a genius (or something similar).
We have? Who said that? I disagree.

<snip>

And in the end, it is really that each owner is responsible for his boat and his actions.
I agree. This is where I thought we ended up, or should have ended up.
 
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