[Zoya]

I have used Lithium Ion batteries on TV cameras for the last 10 years and am totally sold on the technology. They have been absolutely impressive in terms of reliability, longevity and power to weight ratio. Some of our 80WH 12V batteries packs are over 8 years old and still working on the field day to day despite hundreds of charging cycles. We have about 25 units which have traveled all over the world, in all kinds of environmental and weather conditions and never had a single failure. I see 12V Lithium Ion Marine Batteries | Deep Cycle Batteries | Smart Battery has pretty attractive pricing on marine lithium batteries. Has anyone switched to lithiums?

 

[Maine Sail]

I run a LiFePO4 bank but it is custom built. Please stay away from "drop in" type LFP batteries. There is far more to a marine LFP conversion than simply dropping in a "12V look-a-like LFP battery...

If you are interested in learning a bit more about LFP's for marine use:

Marine Use LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings

If you want a pre-built factory made system the only two I like, at this point in time, are Genasun and Mastervolt with my strong preference going to Genasun.

BTW you may want check out the BBB rating of Smart Battery......

 

[Don L]

12V Lithium Ion Marine Batteries | Deep Cycle Batteries | Smart Battery has pretty attractive pricing on marine lithium batteries. Has anyone switched to lithiums?

wow, that pricing was attractive to you

 

[Zoya]

If you look at longevity, performance and weight, yes, lithium batteries are a good investment. When lithiums first enter the TV biz, they were 3 or 4 times the price of NiCads but everyone switched to Li-Ions within a few months, there was no way back.

 

[Zoya]

I run a LiFePO4 bank but it is custom built. Please stay away from "drop in" type LFP batteries. There is far more to a marine LFP conversion than simply dropping in a "12V look-a-like LFP battery......

Maine Sail,

Thanks for you comments, however, my question was related to feedback from anyone who may have purchased or currently using "drop in" lithium batteries such as the ones made by SMART BATTERY. I think this company deserves a fair look. Better, smarter and lighter batteries for boats are way overdue. I am a believer in Lithium batteries and have experienced first hand how they revolutionized the TV biz.

 

[Don L]

If you look at longevity, performance and weight, yes, lithium batteries are a good investment. When lithiums first enter the TV biz, they were 3 or 4 times the price of NiCads but everyone switched to Li-Ions within a few months, there was no way back.

How do we know? For the longevity they would have to last at least 20 years to break even with FLA golf cart batteries (and yes I corrected for lithiums higher usable capacity). What is the longest data study around?

My house bank weights 240 lbs, what difference does that make to my boat.

Then I throw in all the monitoring and danger of overcharging and the whole thing just fails the cruiser equipment test.

In my mind lithiums being "better" is only if you apply enough "if's" to the statement.

 

[travellerw]

Maine Sail,

Thanks for you comments, however, my question was related to feedback from anyone who may have purchased or currently using "drop in" lithium batteries such as the ones made by SMART BATTERY. I think this company deserves a fair look. Better, smarter and lighter batteries for boats are way overdue. I am a believer in Lithium batteries and have experienced first hand how they revolutionized the TV biz.

Pay close attention to what Mainsail said.. He is the expert on Lithium technology batteries on multiple forums on the internet. There is no one else with anywhere near the experience he has. Read his website and you will understand.

Lithium batteries used in a marine environment are different from electronics, VERY DIFFERENT.

P.S. I looked at those batteries... Read Mainsails website and you will understand why those batteries would be a terrible investment (dead within a year).

 

[Zoya]

Amen

 

[miatapaul]

My biggest issue with Lithium Ion Batteries is that when improperly charged or discharged they can ignite, and once on fire they are not easy to put out. Look at all the issues Dell (Sony made cells) had with them in there laptops. Imagine that happens on a boat made almost entirely of flammable materials. That scares the hell out of me. Remember a boat is a far more complicated environment than a single electronic device. You have less control of the draw of various devices that may be pulling current. Flooded lead acid and gel cells seem to be much more tolerant of various pulls and stupid moves. Working on the engine starter, and short out the system with 00 gauge wires leading to the battery bank and I don't want to be on board. Start a fire that just burns right thru the hull, ouch down goes the boat.

 

[travellerw]

My biggest issue with Lithium Ion Batteries is that when improperly charged or discharged they can ignite, and once on fire they are not easy to put out. Look at all the issues Dell (Sony made cells) had with them in there laptops. Imagine that happens on a boat made almost entirely of flammable materials. That scares the hell out of me. Remember a boat is a far more complicated environment than a single electronic device. You have less control of the draw of various devices that may be pulling current. Flooded lead acid and gel cells seem to be much more tolerant of various pulls and stupid moves. Working on the engine starter, and short out the system with 00 gauge wires leading to the battery bank and I don't want to be on board. Start a fire that just burns right thru the hull, ouch down goes the boat.

Do some research on Litium technology batteries.. The batteries the OP is talking about ARE NOT litium ion. They do not suffer from run away thermal problems that the batteries Dell and Sony used. Very different techology called lifepo4 (google it)

 

[miatapaul]

Do some research on Litium technology batteries.. The batteries the OP is talking about ARE NOT litium ion. They do not suffer from run away thermal problems that the batteries Dell and Sony used. Very different techology called lifepo4 (google it)

Yes, I know it is not Lithium ion, but it is still a very volatile metal, and one of the major things that can make it go into an uncontrolled reaction is water, and I think there is a lot of that on and around a boat. Nothing I want to be on the bleeding edge of. Given the fact that the systems tend to not yet be reliable (with the two systems Maine Sail mentioned exceptions) unless you spend a LOT of money it does not seem to make sense at all. Perhaps on a boat like the Gunboat 55 or something like that, but I don't think there are many of those on the board. Perhaps also for use in propulsion power on electric boats.

 

[alctel]

I looked a lot into Lithiums recently, and came to the same conclusion everyone else did - you basically have to build your own system from scratch. Those drop-in batteries will die horribly without the surrounding infrastructure correctly set up, and by the time you do all that stuff you may as well buy cells and setup your own battery for 1/3 of the cost of the pre-made.

I'm still going to do it since I love that stuff, but it requires a fair bit of reading and research.

 

[miatapaul]

Do some research on Litium technology batteries.. The batteries the OP is talking about ARE NOT litium ion. They do not suffer from run away thermal problems that the batteries Dell and Sony used. Very different techology called lifepo4 (google it)

Actually they are lithium ion batteries. Per the link given:

LITHIUM ION MARINE BATTERIES
Drop In Replacement from Lead Acid, AGM or Gel Batteries

Smart Battery offers state of the art technology "Lithium Iron Phosphate" the safest and most robust lithium chemistry. Capable of reaching over 5000 cycles, A Smart Battery can be re-charged thousands of times providing 100% DOD (depth of discharge). Smart Battery is perfect for any marine application both deep cycle and engine starting.

Smart Batteries are perfect for Sailing, Yachts, Power Boats, Trolling Motors and Ships

 

[Waterrat]

Light 1/3- 1/4 the weight
70% or more usable capacity vs 50% for lead
Fast charging

Compelling-

Interesting Research at Sanford- Researchers achieve 'holy grail' of battery design: A stable lithium anode Stanford is very quick to get stuff on the market so we will see where this goes.

It seems to me that this is the future of batteries Yes potential problems but I would guess most of the problems could or will be over come. I am still learning and watching.

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail,

Thanks for you comments, however, my question was related to feedback from anyone who may have purchased or currently using "drop in" lithium batteries such as the ones made by SMART BATTERY. I think this company deserves a fair look. Better, smarter and lighter batteries for boats are way overdue. I am a believer in Lithium batteries and have experienced first hand how they revolutionized the TV biz.

As I mentioned I do have lots of experience with Li in the marine market. You need more than a pretty plastic box and an "F" BBB rating to make a safe and usable LFP battery that will be worth what you spent.

There are currently no "drop in" LFP batteries for boats that pass the sniff test though there are plenty of companies willing to take your hard earned money, mislead you and laugh all the way to the bank.. Read the link I sent posted earlier. When you understand those concepts, for LFP applied to fractional C marine use, then you will much more easily understand why "drop in" LFP does not work for cruising boats..

There is a HUGE difference between a camera battery that uses ONE charge source, which was specifically designed for that battery, and includes all the protections necessary, and a boat with multiple charge sources all designed for lead acid.. You simply CAN NOT do that with an LFP drop in on a boat, because nothing is designed for LFP they are all designed to charge lead acid.

All anyone who knows anything about LiFePO4 has to do is look at those specs, for a LiFePO4 battery, and they will get a good chuckle.

16V As a HV cut off = EARLY DEATH (Pack level HVC????)
8V As a LV cut off = EARLY DEATH (Pack level LVC????)
Charge Voltages of 14.4 - 14.6V =
How does series wiring work if the BMS is internal to each battery?
How does parallel work if BMS is internal to each battery?
How do we properly wire a charge and load bus if the BMS is internal?
Hundreds of internal connections in the marine environment?
How do we protect an alternator from destruction with internal BMS?
A float voltage? You don't float LiFePO4
Is the system protected from cold temp charging?
Is the system protected from high temp charging?
LPF is charge to full > stop charging not bulk, absorb, float.

The bottom line is there are companies out there trying to stuff LFP into a lead acid box and it WILL NOT WORK and deliver the "claims"... Drop in LFP will be the black eye on the industry and it will be sad to watch......

On second thought buy one and let us know how that works out....

FWIW this is what a LFP install can look like. This was a Genasun installation I worked with Bruce Schwab on. This boat had both a 12V Genasun system and 24V Genasun system. The owner wanted to be able to run vessels the air conditioning off the Genasun 24V bank for dinner parties. Worked like a charm.....

 

[Maine Sail]

Light 1/3- 1/4 the weight
70% or more usable capacity vs 50% for lead
Fast charging

Compelling-

Funny I just two seconds ago got off the phone with Bruce as I work with him pretty continually...

 

[Maine Sail]

Actually they are lithium ion batteries. Per the link given:

Lithium or Lithium Ion is simply a general reference to any Li battery technology. However within the Li family there are lots of chemistries. Some of these chemistries are lot more volatile than others.

LiFePO4 is currently the safest, many actually argue it is safer than lead acid, but it has less energy density than our cell phones or computers do or the LiCoO2 Boeing battery did. We are surrounded by Li batteries every day. Everything from cordless tools, cell phones, computers, tablets, remote control hobby vehicles, cameras, video cameras, hearing aids and people even walk around with Li batteries implanted in them to power implantable medical devices... The aerospace and military markets have been using Li chemistries since the mid 70's so it is really nothing new just finally at a point where it is beginning to make more sense for off grid solar and boats.....

 

[Waterrat]

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Excellent and informative read. Thank you for all of your considerable effort illustrated in your informative website. Have you considered publishing a book? Justin

 

[Maine Sail]

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Excellent and informative read. Thank you for all of your considerable effort illustrated in your informative website. Have you considered publishing a book? Justin

I have been approached a few times but unfortunately books that involve technology that changes are a dying breed and can not be kept current when the technology changes. One of the best marine publishers, whom I had considered working with, actually just closed its doors. An eBook is a consideration but print, probably not....

I also try to keep my website free for readers and am doing that in some creative ways such as donations, selling certain products and through affiliate marketing. Still not yet paying its way but I have confidence it eventually will. With a web site I can keep data current as times change, with a book I can not...

I do write for some publications but even that is not really worth the effort. The article I am currently working on will pay less than $750.00 yet the testing has been in the works for 5 months and will require another 1.5 months of testing before it is ready for print. That is far less than peasant pay.....

 

[hellosailor]

Paul-
You just need a 1/2" welded titanium battery box, lined with about 4" of fire bricks or fire cement, and a set of explosive charges allowing you to jettison the whole thing to sea, should the battery fire threaten to spread outside the compartment.
A Class K deluge fire extinguishing system is optional but probably a good idea as well.

Kinda like the USN's statements about what they can do if a marine reactor needs to be disciplined for a couple hundred years.(G)

Reactors have a much better safety record and much higher outputs than lithium batteries. And the strontium and plutonium piles last way longer, too. I don't know why sailors want to mess around with obsolete battery technologies. (VBG)