SailNet Community banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
2 days ago I was responding to some posts on here about rigging and when to replace and even though mine is original it looks to be in excellent condition, etc., etc.....Well today I was moving my boat from its winter berth to be hauled out for a bottom job at a marina a few miles away. Raised the main, had a nice breeze, gorgeous day. Then as I was unfurling the jib I felt something weird and then as the sail was out noticed the backstay was very slack...turned out the furler which on my older hyde unit is the one and only headstay, parted from the mast! The halyard was the only thing holding everything up. Luckily we dropped all sail and continued under power to the marina where I had the boat hauled and a rigger take a look at everyting. Now I am going to have a new headstay and furler put on and am most likely going to replace everything.

Just thought it was ironic how not only 2 days ago I was asking about replacing my rigging...received my answer in a different way!
 

·
Sea Slacker
Joined
·
1,789 Posts
;) yep, unfortunately as my experience had shown - brand new stuff is not immune from this. I had a just installed new forestay part on a very first day out (and not even under sail)
 

·
Glad I found Sailnet
Joined
·
3,842 Posts
Glad it turned out ok.

The other thread is called: rig inspection diy or hire someone.

It wouldn't let me post the link because INSIDE THE LINK ADDRESS, it parsed the word rig <-- like it just did there.

2 days ago I was responding to some posts on here about rigging and when to replace and even though mine is original it looks to be in excellent condition, etc., etc.....Well today I was moving my boat from its winter berth to be hauled out for a bottom job at a marina a few miles away. Raised the main, had a nice breeze, gorgeous day. Then as I was unfurling the jib I felt something weird and then as the sail was out noticed the backstay was very slack...turned out the furler which on my older hyde unit is the one and only headstay, parted from the mast! The halyard was the only thing holding everything up. Luckily we dropped all sail and continued under power to the marina where I had the boat hauled and a rigger take a look at everyting. Now I am going to have a new headstay and furler put on and am most likely going to replace everything.

Just thought it was ironic how not only 2 days ago I was asking about replacing my rigging...received my answer in a different way!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,760 Posts
2 days ago I was responding to some posts on here about rigging and when to replace and even though mine is original it looks to be in excellent condition, etc., etc.....Well today I was moving my boat from its winter berth to be hauled out for a bottom job at a marina a few miles away. Raised the main, had a nice breeze, gorgeous day. Then as I was unfurling the jib I felt something weird and then as the sail was out noticed the backstay was very slack...turned out the furler which on my older hyde unit is the one and only headstay, parted from the mast! The halyard was the only thing holding everything up. Luckily we dropped all sail and continued under power to the marina where I had the boat hauled and a rigger take a look at everyting. Now I am going to have a new headstay and furler put on and am most likely going to replace everything.

Just thought it was ironic how not only 2 days ago I was asking about replacing my rigging...received my answer in a different way!
When we bought our current boat it had a Hyde Stream Stay. I never even let her in the water with it....she got a new Harken & standing rigging before I even launched...;) Rigging is cheap compared to a new spar..
 

·
&#9608;&#9608;&#9619;&#9619;&#9618;&#9618;&#9617;&
Joined
·
13,645 Posts
nk, new headstay, yes, but new furler? Might be overkill, bear in mind that depending on what furler you have, a set of new bearings, a couple of new pins, a new line, and you may have a perfectly effective total overhaul. The loads and failure modes (and potential consequences) aren't at all the same.

Long time ago, I got out to a boat I was crewing on early. Started cleaning up small stuff mainly to stay awake, and cleaned the wrapping off the forestay turnbuckle, only to find the pin holding it all together was just barely hanging in, cotter pin long gone. If I hadn't been early and bored, we might very well have lost the stick that day, or shortly after.

So as Dubyah, Chairman Mao, and a variety of other characters have said over the centuries, "Trust but verify". Just don't let it panic you into throwing out perfectly good gear simply because it is old.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,760 Posts
nk, new headstay, yes, but new furler? Might be overkill, bear in mind that depending on what furler you have, a set of new bearings, a couple of new pins, a new line, and you may have a perfectly effective total overhaul. The loads and failure modes (and potential consequences) aren't at all the same.

Long time ago, I got out to a boat I was crewing on early. Started cleaning up small stuff mainly to stay awake, and cleaned the wrapping off the forestay turnbuckle, only to find the pin holding it all together was just barely hanging in, cotter pin long gone. If I hadn't been early and bored, we might very well have lost the stick that day, or shortly after.

So as Dubyah, Chairman Mao, and a variety of other characters have said over the centuries, "Trust but verify". Just don't let it panic you into throwing out perfectly good gear simply because it is old.
The Hyde furlers did not use a head stay. The stainless swivels were basically glued/epoxied/bonded onto a solid aluminum extrusion that acted as the head stay. Some of these Hyde's had the swivels come unglued from the extrusion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
846 Posts
Head stay failures are the most common ones. The general point is from the top of the mast. This is due to furlers. Te oscilation of the furler causes premature breaking of the head stay. changing only the head stay in this condition is enough. The other stays are generally safe to use.
 

·
Telstar 28
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
Bene—

Use TINYURL.COM to convert the links to a form that the keyword autolinking engine won't screw up. :)

Glad it turned out ok.

The other thread is called: rig inspection diy or hire someone.

It wouldn't let me post the link because INSIDE THE LINK ADDRESS, it parsed the word rig <-- like it just did there.
 

·
Telstar 28
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
Relying on an adhesive for something that is cycling under tension isn't all that great a design idea... what exactly were they thinking???


The Hyde furlers did not use a head stay. The stainless swivels were basically glued/epoxied/bonded onto a solid aluminum extrusion that acted as the head stay. Some of these Hyde's had the swivels come unglued from the extrusion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,304 Posts
They were thinking the same thing that all the people glueing carbon tubes into bike frames were at the time

Or Peugeot with the Pechiney frames that fell apart

""The frames tubes, seat, top, down and all 4 stays were joined to the lugs without a bonding agent or without welds. Peugeot called it the 'Pechiney' process. Quote form the catalogue "The assembly of the frame is performed with a special, patented technique that fits the tubes into the lugs without the use of any bonding process such as welding or glue."



Which is to say they were NOT thinking :eek:
 

·
Telstar 28
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
Only difference is at least the StreamStay used epoxy... :)

I forgot about those Peugeots. One of my friends had one of those frames I think... His frame failed due to the laminate shearing along a scratch that was gotten in a small crash... before the tubes could work free. :)
They were thinking the same thing that all the people glueing carbon tubes into bike frames were at the time

Or Peugeot with the Pechiney frames that fell apart

""The frames tubes, seat, top, down and all 4 stays were joined to the lugs without a bonding agent or without welds. Peugeot called it the 'Pechiney' process. Quote form the catalogue "The assembly of the frame is performed with a special, patented technique that fits the tubes into the lugs without the use of any bonding process such as welding or glue."



Which is to say they were NOT thinking :eek:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,760 Posts
Relying on an adhesive for something that is cycling under tension isn't all that great a design idea... what exactly were they thinking???
I don't think they were.. Here is the top swivel. In defense of Hyde, which is no longer in business, wonder why, this furler sailed over 30k nautical miles.

:DFor my comfort level that's about 29,998 miles too far..

 

·
Telstar 28
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
Just cause it made it over 30K miles....doesn't necessarily mean that it should have been used for 30K miles or 3 for that matter. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I'm just happy the thing happened while I was on my way to have the boat hauled and have a rigger inspect everything....anyway as an update have decided on replacing everything - all standing rigging along with a new Furlex is on order and should be on end of next week or the week after.

A big chunk of change but at least I will some peace of mind...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,192 Posts
Head stay failures are the most common ones. The general point is from the top of the mast. This is due to furlers. Te oscilation of the furler causes premature breaking of the head stay. changing only the head stay in this condition is enough. The other stays are generally safe to use.
I am assuming that you are thinking of failures that occur because a toggle wasn't used at the top of the headstay. Something that every furling system manufacturer strongly recommends as far as I know.
Even a headstay without a furler should incorporate a toggle at both ends.

A furler, properly installed will not cause a headstay to prematurely fail.

The Hyde furlers did not use a head stay. The stainless swivels were basically glued/epoxied/bonded onto a solid aluminum extrusion that acted as the head stay. Some of these Hyde's had the swivels come unglued from the extrusion.
You neglect to mention that there is a stainless collar that is swaged onto the aluminum extrusion before the fitting is filled with epoxy.
I have never seen a failure of this installation. And I've rebuilt and replace dozens of them.
The Hyde Stream Stay systems are somewhat prone to bearing failure. But it is a gross mis-characterization to say that the systems fail because of the terminals.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,760 Posts
You neglect to mention that there is a stainless collar that is swaged onto the aluminum extrusion before the fitting is filled with epoxy.
I have never seen a failure of this installation. And I've rebuilt and replace dozens of them.
The Hyde Stream Stay systems are somewhat prone to bearing failure. But it is a gross mis-characterization to say that the systems fail because of the terminals.

Yes a STAINLESS swage on ALUMINUM. When I bought this boat the first thing I did was call my rigger. He had a box of failed rigging parts and in this box was about 10" of the aluminum Hyde extrusion and the failed top swivel. There was lots of corrosion up in there that probably helped lead to the failure. Having seen it first hand it helped make my decision to spend 2K on a new furler easier.

I don't know to many vessels that use aluminum as a rigging wire/medium but Hyde did and they mixed it with stainless which we all know can lead to disimilar metal corrosion. I suspect, from seeing this piece, that the epoxy pour is what failed and lead to the internal corrosion.

I don't doubt you may have never seen a failure but apparently they did and could occur with the Hyde system. This is why I used the word "some" not "all" or "many" or "lots" because I couldn't assume I was looking at the only Hyde failure in that box. Who knows, perhaps I was...?

Either way my boat has all new standing rigging and a new furler properly installed and I have much more comfort in knowing that especially with the picture of the Hyde parts still in my head.
 

·
.
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
Nk..I am sorry for you trouble and damage, but you really didn't lose a rigginig..

you broke something....

losing a rig is bad...but different from what you experienced
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,192 Posts
Yes a STAINLESS swage on ALUMINUM. When I bought this boat the first thing I did was call my rigger. He had a box of failed rigging parts and in this box was about 10" of the aluminum Hyde extrusion and the failed top swivel. There was lots of corrosion up in there that probably helped lead to the failure. Having seen it first hand it helped make my decision to spend 2K on a new furler easier.

I don't know to many vessels that use aluminum as a rigging wire/medium but Hyde did and they mixed it with stainless which we all know can lead to disimilar metal corrosion. I suspect, from seeing this piece, that the epoxy pour is what failed and lead to the internal corrosion.

I don't doubt you may have never seen a failure but apparently they did and could occur with the Hyde system. This is why I used the word "some" not "all" or "many" or "lots" because I couldn't assume I was looking at the only Hyde failure in that box. Who knows, perhaps I was...?

Either way my boat has all new standing rigging and a new furler properly installed and I have much more comfort in knowing that especially with the picture of the Hyde parts still in my head.
Hey, I'm not gonna claim that the Stream Stay was the cat's meow. I'm just saying that the fact that it's swaged, and not simply relying on epoxy to hold it together is a rather important point to omit. :) No?

The fact is, there are many of these systems still in use today. Some 30 years after they quit making them. That speaks pretty well for their longevity.
There are failures in all equipment sometimes. Tested, proven and trusted parts fails sometimes. Whether because of a mistake in production or installation, who knows? Stuff happens.
Some Camry's are lemons. But that doesn't mean that they aren't a good car.

That's all I'm saying.

I have a Stream Stay to rebuild sitting in the yard now. Sure wish I could talk the owner into a new furler. :D Rebuilding those old things is a greasy PITA.
 

·
Tartan 27' owner
Joined
·
5,242 Posts
Nk,
Congrats on noticing this problem before it escalated into losing the mast etc.
We got a new Furlex unit and new head sail from the Doyle loft in Huntington about 5 years ago that we are quite happy with and they did the rigging (if you are on the LI side of the Sound).
Replacing all the stays/shrouds will give you peace of mind and make some rigger like Knothead busy and happy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,192 Posts
Nk,
Congrats on noticing this problem before it escalated into losing the mast etc.
We got a new Furlex unit and new head sail from the Doyle loft in Huntington about 5 years ago that we are quite happy with and they did the rigging (if you are on the LI side of the Sound).
Replacing all the stays/shrouds will give you peace of mind and make some rigger like Knothead busy and happy.

Amen to that.:D
Keep me busy and I don't have the energy to run off at the mouth (fingers) nearly as much. :laugher
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top