A large roach w/o a backstay whip (assuming backstay interference will occur) is a MAJOR PITA gybing in light air.. I was always scared of ripping a batten out of the sail until we put a backstay whip on... that has solved the problem, however whips are problematic on in-line spreader rigs (you can't afford to slack the backstay off so much.. with swept spreaders the mast support remains - not sure of the rig config of the Outbound)

As far as the 140 vs 130, I'd go with the smaller.. don't think you'll notice a lot of difference until the point you're tempted to motor anyhow. With the solent rig you're pretty well stuck rolling most of it up for a tack or gybe, so make it easier on yourselves... JMO, as always

 

thanks for the input Faster. ?Is it worth it in terms of performance to bother with the large roach at all.

 

That's what I was thinking. Maybe no roach at all. I would imagine a lot of sail failures start with ripped batten pockets. Wouldn't it be nice to just have a tight hollow leech without any battens? I don't know if the difference between a large roach vs a hollow leech would be enough to upset balance.

 

The hollow/battenless leech is a pretty big performance/trim/helm balance hit, IMO, and the major knock on in-mast furling setups for me. Probably less so for a long distance reachy cruiser, but around here where it seems the wind always comes from where we're headed it wouldn't do...

I can't find a profile sailplan.. so it's hard to say how much roach could be carried before running into handling problems...

 

I had a straight cut mainsail (no roach) for years. The small amount of power lost is compensated by less sail repair and the ability to reef or raise on any point of sail on any wind.
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Is it worth it in terms of performance to bother with the large roach at all.

Yes.

When we had our mainsail built by Evolution two years ago, I specifically requested as full a roach as possible. The Chesapeake is notorious for light air and the sailmaker recommended a 2.5" overlap with a 2+2 batten configuration. There have been no wear issues during tacking because the leech slacks when the mainsheet is released. I couldn't be happier with the performance improvements, speed, acceleration, and pointing (yes, the main is a contributor to pointing ability). We driven the sail in 0 to 30kts without issue.

 

Yes.

When we had our mainsail built by Evolution two years ago, I specifically requested as full a roach as possible. The Chesapeake is notorious for light air and the sailmaker recommended a 2.5" overlap with a 2+2 batten configuration.

My main has full length battens, allowing for as much roach as our fixed backstay will allow. We did not go for overlap. We have removable, running backstays, which were installed for the offshore segment of my delivery trip home but haven't been used since, as they are a real nuisance if you don't need them.

Full length battens need to be implemented correctly. We learned this the hard way with a North main we ordered in 2000, requiring warranty repairs when 2 battens exited in a high wind event. I ordered a new main from Evolution last year because of a positive experience with an Evolution genny we bought 3 years ago to replace a North molded genny that didn't age well.

I downsized my genny from my original 150 to about 135, opting to favor performance in higher winds over that in light winds. We had downsized when we went to the North molded sail, too, and it appears we didn't give up anything when we went back to a crosscut dacron sail with the Evolution genny.

Our Clearwater 35 has been in the family for 17 years now and we're quite comfortable with a full roach, full-batten dacron main and a crosscut 135 dacron genny. We are coastal cruisers and have experienced a wide range of conditions over the years and are more concerned with comfort and safety than racing performance. We don't race any more, unless we are on the same tack as another sailboat, so we do care that the sails are "right".

 

Thanks all-Sabreman ? Do you have sacrificial plastic strips sewn to the aft end of the batten pockets. Dashew suggests a tube of plastic over the top of the bckstay. There's no chance I can use a backstay whip. The spreaders are not sweeped back at all. I have running backstays but it would be a PIA to use them just for the usual knocking around.

 

Do you have sacrificial plastic strips sewn to the aft end of the batten pockets.

I do not. The sailmaker at Evolution did not recommend it and I did not think to ask. I did ask if there would be a lot of chaff and he explained that when tacking, the sail slacks and there isn't that much chaffing. He initially recommended a larger 2.5" overlap, but I reduced it to 1.5". I see no wear after 2 seasons cruising and light racing (but in vigorous conditions).

I will ask about the sacrificial strips, it's a good idea. But to be honest, if there was wear, I'd simply have it repaired. Wear is a normal part of a sail's life and I don't realistically expect one to last 20 or 30 years. The benefit of the 2+2 configuration and full roach are too great for me to consider going back. When properly trimmed, this sail rocks. It's the one that you see above.

 

We have more like a 4-6 inch overlap.. it wouldn't go through on a tack without at least 8-10 apparent and hung on gybes something awful... the whip or an extended masthead crane were the 'cures'.. other than a different sail. Since the crane extension was tickling a boat buck (initial estimate $700) a piece of fiberglass bar did the trick. A whip requires use of a lightweight (dyneema, eg) backstay since the wire is too heavy once you get to 35 feet and up...

 

Some Thoughts.

An extended roach with full or long battens will cause several problems for long distance cruising.

1. chafe and wear at the batten pockets and leech abrasion .... and since the leech is the most vulnerable for ripping/splitting, you really should consider chafe patches at all the contact points with the backstay. Chafe is the absolute bane of the long distance sailor.

2. With an extended roach you will have problems in light winds, especially with the batten system is set up with full batten compression to keep full 'powered-up' sail shape for ocean sailing. You will possibly have to 'pop' the mainsail when trying to tack in light conditions ... the sail being restrained by the backstay will have the propensity to not 'invert' its shape between tacks and you may have to manually 'punch' the sail for it to change shape for the next tack - too much overlap of the backstay will certainly have to be discussed with the sailmaker to prevent the sail from 'locking' into a portside shape when tacking over onto starboard, etc. when sailing in light winds. The only way to do this with a fixed backstay is to run low batten compression in their pockets .. and that will lead to a FLAT shape overall and not good for sailing in light winds with 'left over slop' and swells where you need a power / full drafted shape.

I think what Dashew is advocating is a simple UHMWPE split sleeve attached up high on the backstay in the area of the roach interference to provide 'lubricity' to the backstay ... just a snap-on 'shroud cover'.
If you have a SSB antenna as integral with the backstay (w/insulatiors), how will you provide the 'lubricity' across the prominent insulators? A folded dipole, slip-on, backstay SSB/HAM antenna system (eg. GAM antenna, etc.) which is constructed of UHMWPE could provide the 'slippery-ness' for such needs, but the GAM, etc. antenna would tend to 'rotate' each time the roach is pressed to the backstay.

Since you will not have a dynamic backstay system (bendy mast and rapidly loosened backstay) a backstay whip will be useless, unless you dont mind constantly loosening/tightening the backstay at each time you gybe/tack in light winds.

I think youd be best served by a sailmaker who has actual extensive long distance blue water experience rather than an around-the-buoys type - a vastly different world. If passagemaking is your goal, you'll probably be reaching or running most of the time, so a large roached main on a mast headed boat is not all that important ... just put up a larger jib/genoa. When beating is required, to avoid storm centers, and 'stink', etc., you'll probably be reefed anyway.

Also - FWIW.
Vektron is (was) subject to rapid UV damage, at least it was 10 years ago when I tested it, although I believe it now has an integral UV protective scrim. For the mainsail, certainly a robust woven dacron (Bainbridge or Challenge, etc.) will withstand constant folding and 'reefing', and the all important leech can be reinforced (triple stitched, seams additionally glued, and reinforcement patches placed at all leech intersection seams). With a dacron main you can easily also add an 'over the top' leech control line with which you can control leech tension from the base of the mast or even back to the cockpit .... instead of hanging over blue water (one hand on the boom, one hand doing the adjustments, one foot on the rail and one foot dangling in space) to adjust leech tension - a safety concern for deep water sailing.

With respect to the mainsail, 'good' dacron is more robust, and is more 'adjustable' to meet varying wind conditions, and can take a better 'beating' than any of the laminates; doesnt require 'precise folding'/rolling, etc. and can take more abuse when reefing (think of the clew lines that tighten around the 'bunt' when deep reefed - chafe!!!).
Sure, laminates and extended roaches will give better performance, but do you really need several more inches per mile when passagemaking, and when most sailing is (or should be) reaching? .... especially when sailing in the trade winds.

Just my opinions. ;-)

 

Great input all-
Called Robin ( Hood in Ca) and went with
Vektron- Reassured UV issue has been lessened. Should get 12+yrs.
Non overlapping main with full battens.Did everything possible to decrease friction as have single line reefing.
140 genny in 6oz. Will use solent in any kind of wind and genny on traditional roller furling seems more bulletproof than using top down continuous line. So Genny becomes the sail once wind gets near the beam. Don't put the pole out unless the leg is long enough so not worried about in and out to gybe. Use solent if tacking. Add light air reach/run sail later if and when I have the money and see the need.
Will only know if best decision after a few years. If obviously wrong will share so others do better.

 

Will only know if best decision after a few years. If obviously wrong will share so others do better.

Ha! I just noticed your boat name ... and if you keep your hippocampus healthy, Im sure you'll have no problem finding all the needed 'shortcuts' to make those decisions. LOL.

 

If single line reefing and interested in lessening friction .... have your considered Goïot Rutgerson cringle blocks already mounted INSIDE the reefing cringles?

http://www.goiot.com/pdf/p48a.pdf

 

Looks like a great piece of kit RichH. Left the orginal holes for traditional slab reefing and added very low friction blocks attached to sail by short piece of webbing for the reef lines. That way very low friction set up. Also allows a little extra room for non deployed part of the reefed sail and redundancy so I can tie in a reef if any part of the reefing system fails. Have hooks for tacks on gooseneck. Will cover them with a piece of flexible plastic pipe (Water pipe or the like) run under the boom so there is no chance they will catch the sail and rip it.