[davidpm]

Please forgive my spamming this picture. It is the newest boat I've sailed (2013) an I have more than one question about it.

The wind picked up to 15 knots (true I think) we had pretty steady white caps with almost no waves, maybe 1 foot.
We had the 100 genny and main fully deployed and it felt to me as if the boat was just about at it's limit.

Does that sound right? I'm more familiar with 30 to 35 foot boats where I know when to reef.

 

[DivingOtter]

Were you out today? I was out I the Barnegat bay and Toms River. Around 1100 the winds picked up to about 15 gusting to 20 knots. I was single handed on my 23 ft Santana so headed back on a partially furled jib. A boat that size has a lot of sail. Honestly my opinion is if you think you need to reef / reduce the sail you probably should have already started. Beautiful boat by the way.

 

[GeorgeB]

Beneteau Sense 43?

 

[tommays]

If it was in fact 15 TRUE and not apparent then GOING UP WIND you could have been in the 22 knot apparent range Which is pretty stout

 

[davidpm]

Beneteau Sense 43?

Yes, you have a good eye. Only a couple in the states.

 

[davidpm]

If it was in fact 15 TRUE and not apparent then GOING UP WIND you could have been in the 22 knot apparent range Which is pretty stout

Yes that was part of my problem with the full instrument panel. It had everything, radar, two helm stations etc.

There were so many screens an numbers I was not always sure what was real and and what was not. I'm sure some more time I would have figured it out.

 

[Slayer]

I would go more by feel than the instruments. Excessive weather helm, too much heel: time to reef.

 

[JonEisberg]

Sounds like it may not meet Chuck Paine's 20/20 Rule that defines a good cruising boat... Especially, considering it's only carrying a "100 percent genoa"... )

According to Paine, a good cruising boat should be able to carry its working sail plan, sailing close hauled in 20 knots, without heeling more than 20 degrees...

Not too many boats meet that standard today, in my experience. Mine barely manages to, but by the time the breeze has piped up to 20, I've already taken in a reef - I'm not gonna beat myself up just to prove to myself I've got a decent boat

 

[tomandchris]

It is a beauty. So, my guess is you did figure out where the boat speed was. In those conditions what was it?

 

[davidpm]

Sounds like it may not meet Chuck Paine's 20/20 Rule that defines a good cruising boat... Especially, considering it's only carrying a "100 percent genoa"... )

According to Paine, a good cruising boat should be able to carry its working sail plan, sailing close hauled in 20 knots, without heeling more than 20 degrees...

That is a good quote. I'll remember it.
This boat has a hard chine aft and is designed to sail really flat, maybe 10 degrees or so.

I was being more than a little cautious as it was pretty much the first time anyone has sailed that boat so I didn't know what to expect.

 

[capta]

Those things are in a lot of the bare boat fleets down here, but I really don't know how well they sail. Every one I've ever seen has been under power, even on some great sailing days. Does one really need two helms on a motor boat?

 

[davidpm]

Those things are in a lot of the bare boat fleets down here, but I really don't know how well they sail. Every one I've ever seen has been under power, even on some great sailing days. Does one really need two helms on a motor boat?

The purpose of the two helms is to keep the path to the swim platform clear.

 

[RichH]

The purpose of the two helms is to keep the path to the swim platform clear.

How about keeping one of the two rudders from 'ventilating' when well over on a heel. Such is a design concept from the 1890s - the original BIG ILYA 'scows'.

Such fat-assed boats would probably do even better with BILGE BOARDS

 

[davidpm]

How about keeping one of the two rudders from 'ventilating' when well over on a heel. Such is a design concept from the 1890s - the original BIG ILYA 'scows'.

Such fat-assed boats would probably do even better with BILGE BOARDS

That is actually part of my problem with this boat. With the hard chine I believe it is not designed to heal.

I'm concerned about the initial stability vs stability after it hits 20 degrees.
Some small day sailors are very tender after 20 degrees and if you heal them too much they tip over.

Some of the older designs you can put the spreaders in the water and the boat will pop up as soon as it can.

I just don't know if these new hard-chine super wide hulls will do that. I'm afraid they may act more like a dinghy or catamarans and have good initial stability then just loose it at some arbitrary heal angle.

I'm hoping our design experts will pop in and let me know what to expect.

 

[capta]

The purpose of the two helms is to keep the path to the swim platform clear.

Ah, ha! Thanks.

 

[Don L]

Please forgive my spamming this picture. It is the newest boat I've sailed (2013) an I have more than one question about it.

The wind picked up to 15 knots (true I think) we had pretty steady white caps with almost no waves, maybe 1 foot.
We had the 100 genny and main fully deployed and it felt to me as if the boat was just about at it's limit.

Does that sound right? I'm more familiar with 30 to 35 foot boats where I know when to reef.

[/IMG]

If I had been sailing it it would be at its' limit for full sail and if it had been gusting on top I would be putting a reef in. But I think you were getting closer to 20 knots wind if there were white caps.

You knew it was time to reef! You know how I know this; it is because you asked the question.

 

[blt2ski]

Not sure frankly that the 20/20 rule works with that boat. As that boat even with a 100 jib is probably equal to an old mast head IOR rig with a 135-155 up! so reality is, 15 steady may be where you need to reef the main some, to get it equal to a rig where the 20/20 rule was initially made up.

Now, I may be wrong on my assessment per say, But I will doubt that I am that far off personally speaking here.

Marty

 

[RichH]

That is actually part of my problem with this boat. With the hard chine I believe it is not designed to heal.

I'm concerned about the initial stability vs stability after it hits 20 degrees.
Some small day sailors are very tender after 20 degrees and if you heal them too much they tip over.

Some of the older designs you can put the spreaders in the water and the boat will pop up as soon as it can.

I just don't know if these new hard-chine super wide hulls will do that. I'm afraid they may act more like a dinghy or catamarans and have good initial stability then just loose it at some arbitrary heal angle.

I'm hoping our design experts will pop in and let me know what to expect.

but .... the hard chine puts more 'vertical' surface in profile to resist a leewards skid/drift .... mathematically such (artificially by trigonomety trickery) increases the 'effective' and effectiveness of the hull's Lateral Resistance. Thats what scows and 'sandbaggers' have done for over a hundred years of design although their chines are usually 'tightly rounded' instead of hard chined so that when conditions are 'ideal' with maximum heel their bilge boards dont 'necessarily' have to be all the way down when beating (and still be semi-planing).

That's my 'view' of the more modern fat-assed, shallow bilged and double ruddered sailing 'sleds' --- they're more than less, (skimming dish) scow designs with keels and 'pointy' bows ... and they are 'beautiful' to a scow sailor.

 

[blt2ski]

David,

A couple of other thoughts since last post.

Is the boat pictured the ACTUAL boat? If so, I see it has in mast reefing. While I have not sailed such a creature, and issue I see with this setup, is when reefing, the main is still for ALL practical purposes, all the way up the mast. Yes when reefed, you have reduced SA, lowered CG etc etc, BUT you left the weight of the main up at the top of the mast, unlike a slab reef setup, the sail wt is lowered, so this weight CG is lowered, allowing a bit more SA up for a given wind speed.

Then since this boat probably has at full sail a 20 to 22-1 SA/disp, possibly a shoal keel.....you may need to get into the 16 or 17-1 range to keep yourself at the 20/20 rule mentioned. Where as a rig like mine, MH slab reefing, no jib furling, deep keel, is able to keep a bit more sail up in a given blow than the one you are sailing.

Just some more thoughts on potential issues you are having with this rig.

Marty

 

[jnorten]

For what it's worth, I crew on a late 1990's 37' Hunter. We do our best, but don't take it over seriously. The boat has all the creature comforts below, and we use furling headsail.

The headsail is definitely a jib, not a genoa. So, this is close to the specs of your headsail.

With all of the above said, my skipper thinks about reefing--during a race--right around 20 knots true windspeed.

So, your gut about your boat feeling near its limit at 15 knots makes sense.