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You can see the helmsman (Mischa) in the cap with his feet on those sheeting pedals...



This is right before the crash. The "mainsheet" is fully hydraulic. They had a release valve on it that was too small and couldn't release fast enough. He says the new valve is 3X the size of the original. Lesson learned.

Here is the video of Mischa talking about what happened...

 

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Though it's about 4 years old now, I found an interesting CW article:

40 of the Best Catamarans and Trimarans. Ever.
Move over, monohulls. Check out Cruising World's list of the 40 multihulls that most significantly changed the boat-design game.
Look what's on the list!



And you just HAVE to love this one...


Piver Lodestar 35

And number 1 of all time at that point...


Leopard 48
 

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Isn't that kind of unlucky? I thought the Fiji to NZ was an off-wind trip, but the return from NZ to Fiji was the basher?

Mark
Actually the strategy is to make as much easting as possible leaving the islands..with the trade winds...fair winds until about 30 South..then it is a real crap shoot. Sub tropical weather here is the fastest changing weather anywhere. Always hated the return trip to New Zealand. Easy to see the 3- 4 days forecast...but after that not so easy. Leaving New Zealand back to the islands you know that just getting North to 30 South will leave the cold and crap wx behind. We hove to twice on trips back to NZ...

Some interesting reading on the Queens Birthday storm here:
https://www.amazon.com/Rescue-Pacific-Story-Disaster-Survival/dp/0070486190
 

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To me the real issue has to be the crews apparent failure to realize just what the change in the wind meant as they moved out of the lee of the island. Velocity and direction are important. This event is not just an example of poor boat handling but poor fundamental seamanship.
 

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To me the real issue has to be the crews apparent failure to realize just what the change in the wind meant as they moved out of the lee of the island. Velocity and direction are important. This event is not just an example of poor boat handling but poor fundamental seamanship.
I think you're being a bit too harsh in that last sentence. You have to remember that FUJIN was in full-on race mode, intentionally pushing the boat as hard as they could within their perceived limits. I think you could somewhat make a case for poor boat handling in their not being prepared - or being too slow - to blow the sheets as they came out of that wind shadow. But I think saying that it's an example of poor fundamental seamanship is going a bit far. This is racing. It's very different from "prudent" and conservative risk-reduction you typically associate with "good seamanship" on the cruising end of things.

As you saw in the photo I posted above, they push this boat very hard in races - to the point that at times get a hull flying. And they build their "seamanship" around that approach. And this is why you have things like the ISAF regs in racing where it is understood that you're not being conservative with the boat - so you have to be FAR more conservative with all the means of safety around you (gear, training, etc.). In that regard, this is far better fundamental seamanship than virtually any cruiser out there will have. Again - it's just a very different animal...and why these examples of capsize have literally nothing to do with cruising cats.
 

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There’s some really new and inventive thinking in offerings coming up.
Friend in Barrington has just started a new company. Target is mom and pop or small family interested in voyaging and cruising not charter. Price point 800k-1m.
Designer Schoilling
Builder Steve Brody
Innovative features
Diesel electric propulsion. Diesel only invocated in absence of sufficient alt. energy. Charges through hydroelectric from sail drives as well as walk on solar.
Central helm inside saloon with all lines lead to that position. Can be sailed solo!! Panels above helm are glass and can be retracted.
Cutting edge design. Narrow 3’ at water line wave cutting hulls. Magnificent queen berth staterooms(one each hul), head, shower in each hull with additional one viable single passage berth in each hull. Daggerboards don’t interfere with interior. Skedges protect running gear and add directional stability. Horizon portion improves ride/performance.
CF/foam panel construction. Interesting to see how structural elements are nested on panels to avoid waste.
Anyone interested in a for real ocean going cruiser in the 45’ range should hold off a bit. There’s amazing boats coming down the pike.
 

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There’s some really new and inventive thinking in offerings coming up.
Friend in Barrington has just started a new company. Target is mom and pop or small family interested in voyaging and cruising not charter. Price point 800k-1m.
Designer Schoilling
Builder Steve Brody
Innovative features
Diesel electric propulsion. Diesel only invocated in absence of sufficient alt. energy. Charges through hydroelectric from sail drives as well as walk on solar.
Central helm inside saloon with all lines lead to that position. Can be sailed solo!! Panels above helm are glass and can be retracted.
Cutting edge design. Narrow 3’ at water line wave cutting hulls. Magnificent queen berth staterooms(one each hul), head, shower in each hull with additional one viable single passage berth in each hull. Daggerboards don’t interfere with interior. Skedges protect running gear and add directional stability. Horizon portion improves ride/performance.
CF/foam panel construction. Interesting to see how structural elements are nested on panels to avoid waste.
Anyone interested in a for real ocean going cruiser in the 45’ range should hold off a bit. There’s amazing boats coming down the pike.
This is out of the price range for most sailors.... maybe for middle aged people who liquidate their home and put it into a boat...
 

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There’s some really new and inventive thinking in offerings coming up.
Friend in Barrington has just started a new company. Target is mom and pop or small family interested in voyaging and cruising not charter. Price point 800k-1m.
Designer Schoilling
Builder Steve Brody
Innovative features
Diesel electric propulsion. Diesel only invocated in absence of sufficient alt. energy. Charges through hydroelectric from sail drives as well as walk on solar.
Central helm inside saloon with all lines lead to that position. Can be sailed solo!! Panels above helm are glass and can be retracted.
.
Having converted to electric propulsion ten years ago I expect this will cut down on maintenance and costs considerably with only one diesel to maintain. Also having solar, wind and regen capabilities it probably won't be used a lot compared to current one diesel per prop configurations. There also won't be a need for a separate diesel power generator too! More storage room too without those diesels in the hulls.
 

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There’s some really new and inventive thinking in offerings coming up.
Friend in Barrington has just started a new company. Target is mom and pop or small family interested in voyaging and cruising not charter. Price point 800k-1m.
Designer Schoilling
Builder Steve Brody
Innovative features
Diesel electric propulsion. Diesel only invocated in absence of sufficient alt. energy. Charges through hydroelectric from sail drives as well as walk on solar.
Central helm inside saloon with all lines lead to that position. Can be sailed solo!! Panels above helm are glass and can be retracted.
Cutting edge design. Narrow 3’ at water line wave cutting hulls. Magnificent queen berth staterooms(one each hul), head, shower in each hull with additional one viable single passage berth in each hull. Daggerboards don’t interfere with interior. Skedges protect running gear and add directional stability. Horizon portion improves ride/performance.
CF/foam panel construction. Interesting to see how structural elements are nested on panels to avoid waste.
Anyone interested in a for real ocean going cruiser in the 45’ range should hold off a bit. There’s amazing boats coming down the pike.


Could the designer possibly be Schionning instead of Schiolling? Schionning is a well known Australian designer known for designing performance cats with hulls with skinny beams.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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I think you're being a bit too harsh in that last sentence... <litany of excuses>...
The dude turtled his frickin’ boat. If that’s not an example of poor seamanship, then what is?

Even skilled sailors make mistakes. The best ones own up to their mistakes and learn from them. I’d expect the captain himself would be quick to admit that he could have exhibited better seamanship.
 

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The dude turtled his frickin’ boat. If that’s not an example of poor seamanship, then what is?

Even skilled sailors make mistakes. The best ones own up to their mistakes and learn from them. I’d expect the captain himself would be quick to admit that he could have exhibited better seamanship.
How many VOR and Vendee boats are broken each run? How about the Sydney-Hobart boats? How many AC cats go over? Yet these are some of the most talented, seasoned, experienced, trained, and capable seamen on the ocean. Period. And they take risks virtually NO cruiser would EVER take (for very good reason) - and they typically get criticized for it as you see here if there is a bad outcome. Yet most of the time, they do it very successfully because they are just that much better seamen.

So, mistakes in boathandling are one thing when it comes to breaking a boat - "poor seamanship" is quite another when we're talking sailing at that level. Seamanship involves far more than blowing a sheet in time or not in a race.

For example you have Vestas in the previous VOR hitting the reef at night. That was an incident of poor seamanship because it involved several fundamental failures - not just timing an unseen strong puff. Even so, I would never criticize these guys' overall seamanship. None of us on this or any other forum out there can hold a candle to these guys in this arena.

So, yes, there is absolutely a distinction despite the outcome.
 

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“...despite the outcome.”

Just excuses and defensiveness.

Jeopardizing safety of your crew by turtling your boat is the ultimate example of poor seamanship. Period.

I never said that he has poor overall seamanship skills. That’s a red herring that you threw into the mix.
 

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“...despite the outcome.”

Just excuses and defensiveness.

Jeopardizing safety of your crew by turtling your boat is the ultimate example of poor seamanship. Period.

I never said that he has poor overall seamanship skills. That’s a red herring that you threw into the mix.


To win races it appears you have to show poor seamanship, so if your in a race are you there to win or show seamanship?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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“...despite the outcome.”

Just excuses and defensiveness.

Jeopardizing safety of your crew by turtling your boat is the ultimate example of poor seamanship. Period.

I never said that he has poor overall seamanship skills. That’s a red herring that you threw into the mix.
Okay TF - you're trying the same old baiting again, making it personal. I'm not interested. If you want to reasonably talk multis I'm happy to do that. Otherwise I think the evidence speaks very clearly for itself to typical readers out there. Later.
 

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To win races it appears you have to show poor seamanship, so if your in a race are you there to win or show seamanship?


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I think the problem is that he is trying to make the two mutually exclusive. And that couldn't be further from reality.

With most all the capsize examples that have been presented there are extreme extenuating circumstances be they racing, severe storms/hurricanes, etc. Only one case I've seen thus far has any direct relevance to this discussion about cruising mutlis - and that's ANNA. The story there makes it clear that they were over-canvassed for conditions (just like in that video of the mono above - as well as the dismasting video above), did not seem to be monitoring those conditions closely, obviously didn't have the skillset/knowledge of the level of sailors we're talking about above, and simply were overwhelmed. In my book that is "poor seamanship" in that several things were done wrong and/or missed as I said above. Even so, I won't spend time criticizing them. And I certainly won't blame the boat type.

That said, I'm still very interested in why CWD boats have such a record of capsize. There certainly seems to be something going on there. I just don't know what it is yet.
 

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Now - if you want to see a TRULY SPECTACULAR capsize of a multi - here you go (watch the boom the whole time)...


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/sailing/10137394/Sailor-airlifted-to-hospital-after-MOD70-trimaran-capsize-in-Route-des-Princes-Dublin.html
"We were at the limit of weather conditions for our boats and it was not great for racing,” said Yann Guichard. I was unable to do anything at the helm, the boat was turned over with a single blow. We let out the staysail immediately, but it was too late as it all happened in a split second.

“The boat was lifted onto the port float and went over. Jacques was with me in the cockpit and we found ourselves in the net ... we managed to get out and then were airlifted.”

“All the MODs had one reef in the main and staysail. We started a bit below and behind the fleet and found ourselves slightly in a wind shadow. When our rivals had moved away we had a sudden gust literally flattened us.

...

"It was windy and gusty but it is very unusual to see a trimaran go over in a fully crewed situation," said Damian Foxall, who was just yards away on board Oman Air Musandam when the accident happened.

"We are all very aware of the risks. Without being too blasé it is part and parcel of the sport. It is dangerous because we are on the edge for a lot of the time but it doesn’t change the fact that it is absolutely fantastic racing and this is a fantastic event and this is why we are here. As a rule, these boats deliver speed in a reliable way and it is up to the crew to manage the boat and keep it on three hulls."
So yes, this multi turtled and there was an injury (skipper's brother). Yet Yann Guichard doesn't suck at seamanship. And I still have zero concern about buying a cruising multi because this has absolutely nothing to do with that.
 
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