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Well, just to be fair: It is nice that none of their 400 boats ever capsized. But to keep things in perspective, Catalina built in excess of 60,000 monohulls and to my knowledge not a single one of them lost their keel.

As you are saying, just one manufacturer indeed.

Edited: Now here's a challenge for someone good at googling: How many cruising catamarans have ever existed in the world, let's say since the 1970s? I am picking this number because I would not be surprised if this number were smaller than the number of monohulls that were built by a single mid-sized production boat builder. Like Catalina which was founded in 1969.


That’s all the boats Catalina built from 8’ and up. Does that mean we can use all the beach cats in determining how many catamarans have been built? And really does it matter?


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Well, just to be fair: It is nice that none of their 400 boats ever capsized. But to keep things in perspective, Catalina built in excess of 60,000 monohulls and to my knowledge not a single one of them lost their keel.

As you are saying, just one manufacturer indeed.

Edited: Now here's a challenge for someone good at googling: How many cruising catamarans have ever existed in the world, let's say since the 1970s? I am picking this number because I would not be surprised if this number were smaller than the number of monohulls that were built by a single mid-sized production boat builder. Like Catalina which was founded in 1969.


Ouch! A Catalina 30 lost its keel!
http://cruising.sailboatowners.com/cgi-bin/bbs62x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/203795


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That’s all the boats Catalina built from 8’ and up. Does that mean we can use all the beach cats in determining how many catamarans have been built? And really does it matter?


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Fair point. We are talking cruising boats, don't know what a suitable cut-off in length is. Maybe 25'?
Don't know how many of the 60,000 Catalinas fulfill that.
 

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But you are the king of google-fu, can't you figure that out?
Yes - I'm very good at it. And yes I could figure it out as I usually do. But I have to be interested in the subject. I'm not at all interested in this particular subject. It's your thing. I'm interested in multi designs, features, capabilities, etc. So I'll leave it to you.

PS - As you say, I've already provided market data as to their growing popularity - with quantification. Just look back at the first few pages. I just don't need more convincing.
 

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Yes - I'm very good at it. And yes I could figure it out as I usually do. But I have to be interested in the subject. I'm not at all interested in this particular subject. It's your thing. I'm interested in multi designs, features, capabilities, etc. So I'll leave it to you.

PS - As you say, I've already provided market data as to their growing popularity - with quantification. Just look back at the first few pages. I just don't need more convincing.
I have a feeling I know WHY you are not interested in how many cruising multihulls there are. You may not like the result. I know that you posted data about growth. But if you start from a very low base, it is very easy to grow very fast so growth data by themselves mean nothing.

But, you know, I have really nothing against multihulls. I only got into this conversation because of a flaw in logic in one posting. At some point, nearly 20 years ago, long before they became (according to your postings here) THE THING for your young punks, I was pondering buying one.

Carry on.
 

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Can you guys tell what make of cat this is? Older Outremer?


It looks like they completed this passage then headed back to Mexico where they bought a tri-maran project and are trying to fully re-fit it as a zero emissions boat. Kind of interesting I suppose.
 

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I have a feeling I know WHY you are not interested in how many cruising multihulls there are. You may not like the result. I know that you posted data about growth. But if you start from a very low base, it is very easy to grow very fast so growth data by themselves mean nothing.

But, you know, I have really nothing against multihulls. I only got into this conversation because of a flaw in logic in one posting. At some point, nearly 20 years ago, long before they became (according to your postings here) THE THING for your young punks, I was pondering buying one.

Carry on.
Hmm! The recent Miami Boat Show, the same amount (or more) catamarans than monohulls on display. Why are companies spending marketing dollars on catamarans and not spending the same amount on monohulls?

Are they stupid?

Or do they know something you don't???
 

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Ok, one more guess then I give up!. Either way it’s a fun read.
https://www.sailmagazine.com/multihulls/sailing-couple-switched-one-hull-two


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Great article! Just a snip...

As the sun dropped below the western horizon one evening in December 2014, we watched the parting glow from the cockpit of Archer, our Outremer 51 catamaran. We were anchored in Bequia’s Admiralty Bay, our first island stop after completing the ARC+ rally from Gran Canaria to St. Lucia via the Cape Verde islands. When darkness fell, we watched the masthead lights of the monohulls anchored nearby whip metronomically back and forth in the harbor swell. Unaffected by the motion of the sea, Archer sat quietly.

Four months earlier, after more than three decades of sailing monohulls across oceans, to the Caribbean, and up and down the East Coast of the United States, we had begun our transition to a catamaran. We were looking for a change—and a challenge. We thought we might be able to cruise farther into the future on a cat, and we wanted to be able to invite our grandsons and their parents to visit us comfortably in the added space of a multihull.

Sailing and living aboard a cat is, in some ways, very similar to cruising on a monohull. After all, sailing is sailing, and the same principles apply to both types of boats. But all boats are different, as we have experienced when we changed monohulls in the past.

Speed has always been important to us. It’s not that we are racers, but the boat that goes faster gets into port sooner. The boat that gets into port sooner avoids the next squall or approaching front. And cruisers on faster boats have more time to explore their destinations than those who spend more time at sea. On our last monohull, a Saga 48 named Altair, we consistently arrived in port among the top 10 to 15 percent of the boats we sailed with. We met that same expectation with Archer in the 2014 ARC+ rally.

To be clear, Archer is a cruising catamaran, designed by Outremer Yachting to combine performance-enhancing characteristics like daggerboards with comfortable accommodations designed for a cruising couple and their guests. We are not flying hulls and defying gravity when we sail, and we certainly are not suffering with pipe berths and compromised living spaces.

...

The motion on a cat is different from that of a monohull. Sometimes, it is noisier, too. Frequently the waves and swells hit one hull from one angle and the other hull from another. As our boat mate Tim Szabo explained, “Once one ‘gets it’ … the quicker, shorter motion … you realize it is a sailboat too, but one in which all the sea routines are easier and getting around is much more comfortable. Lots of space to be alone, but together, too.” Before sailing on Archer, Tim completed an Atlantic Circle and many thousands of ocean miles on his Saga 43, Kinship.

...

But in the end, the biggest difference is that we generally sail about 2 knots faster than we used to on Altair, more easily and also more comfortably. That’s hard to beat!

Rick and Julie Palm have sailed together since 1980 on a succession of monohulls before jumping into the multihull world


People who are genuinely interested should read this one.
 

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Can you guys tell what make of cat this is? Older Outremer?

Sailing dream - South pacific crossing on a catamaran - YouTube

It looks like they completed this passage then headed back to Mexico where they bought a tri-maran project and are trying to fully re-fit it as a zero emissions boat. Kind of interesting I suppose.


Edel 38.

I’m pretty sure they bought an Endeavour 30 catamaran in Panama City Fl. And sailed it to Australia before this trip.

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I have a feeling I know WHY you are not interested in how many cruising multihulls there are. You may not like the result. I know that you posted data about growth. But if you start from a very low base, it is very easy to grow very fast so growth data by themselves mean nothing.

But, you know, I have really nothing against multihulls. I only got into this conversation because of a flaw in logic in one posting. At some point, nearly 20 years ago, long before they became (according to your postings here) THE THING for your young punks, I was pondering buying one.

Carry on.


Multihull growth, specifically catamarans has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years. For the most part I personally don’t see any progression in the designs of the newer popular production catamarans. They are getting larger both in length and height and heavier per foot as well as the hulls getting wider. This makes for a boat with HUGE interiors which is what the market is driving, but makes for a very cumbersome vessel, something catamarans aren’t supposed to be. But they still seem to cross oceans comfortably.
I see the opposite in the more modern monohull designs. They also seem to be gaining interior space, but their performance also seems to be improving, and in my opinion starting to look damn sexy!


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Here’s an older Freydis 49 catamaran.


And here’s a newer Lagoon 50 catamaran.


I much prefer the older Freydis over the newer Lagoon, maybe I’m just old fashioned.


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Here’s an older Freydis 49 catamaran.


And here’s a newer Lagoon 50 catamaran.


I much prefer the older Freydis over the newer Lagoon, maybe I’m just old fashioned.


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I'm with you smj. Aesthetically the Freydis just more pleasing to me. The Leopard is starting to look too cruise-shippy. That said, the bridge-deck center V may help with that serious banging in that video of the crossing above. That was pretty pronounced. And what was going on with the rigging on that boat??? Jeez!
 

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Multihull growth, specifically catamarans has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years. For the most part I personally don’t see any progression in the designs of the newer popular production catamarans. They are getting larger both in length and height and heavier per foot as well as the hulls getting wider. This makes for a boat with HUGE interiors which is what the market is driving, but makes for a very cumbersome vessel, something catamarans aren’t supposed to be. But they still seem to cross oceans comfortably.
I see the opposite in the more modern monohull designs. They also seem to be gaining interior space, but their performance also seems to be improving, and in my opinion starting to look damn sexy!
I agree that modern monos are going through an evolutionary change for the better, and some of them really interest me. Boy, they are getting some hate from other mono people, though.

I also agree that modern catamarans seem to have stagnated in design by the big boys, and are about as boxy as they can get, but there still is a lot of good looking and good performing boats by smaller companies and designers.

Not all of the boxy designs are poor performers, though. Leopard, for example, brought in Morelli and Melvin a few years ago to restart their designs. Their new boats are almost a complete shoebox above the water, but below the water, M&M did some pretty good work to make these boats move well. They actually have narrower hulls with little rocker, shallow depth, and long waterlines below the water, while bumping the hulls out well above the waterline in a way provides good reserve buoyancy without creating a lot of drag or noise. I've been out sailing with these designs in full cruising mode and weight and was surprised at how well they perform.

And wide hulls aren't necessarily bad. As an example, we have narrow hulls and are quite a good performer - as long as we keep it very light. Right now, with everything we own on board and no discipline to stop loading it up, we are 6" below waterline. We are also a good 1.5kt slower in good winds, much slower in light winds, and don't point as well, as we did when we used the boat seasonally and it was lighter and on its design waterline.

So Lagoons (for example) may be fat and heavy, but the hulls are designed for being fat and heavy. They aren't performance boats in that sense, but they perform the same light as they do fully (over)loaded for cruising.

Mark
 

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I agree that modern monos are going through an evolutionary change for the better, and some of them really interest me. Boy, they are getting some hate from other mono people, though.



I also agree that modern catamarans seem to have stagnated in design by the big boys, and are about as boxy as they can get, but there still is a lot of good looking and good performing boats by smaller companies and designers.



Not all of the boxy designs are poor performers, though. Leopard, for example, brought in Morelli and Melvin a few years ago to restart their designs. Their new boats are almost a complete shoebox above the water, but below the water, M&M did some pretty good work to make these boats move well. They actually have narrower hulls with little rocker, shallow depth, and long waterlines below the water, while bumping the hulls out well above the waterline in a way provides good reserve buoyancy without creating a lot of drag or noise. I've been out sailing with these designs in full cruising mode and weight and was surprised at how well they perform.



And wide hulls aren't necessarily bad. As an example, we have narrow hulls and are quite a good performer - as long as we keep it very light. Right now, with everything we own on board and no discipline to stop loading it up, we are 6" below waterline. We are also a good 1.5kt slower in good winds, much slower in light winds, and don't point as well, as we did when we used the boat seasonally and it was lighter and on its design waterline.



So Lagoons (for example) may be fat and heavy, but the hulls are designed for being fat and heavy. They aren't performance boats in that sense, but they perform the same light as they do fully (over)loaded for cruising.



Mark


You’re right and I was talking about the main producers of catamarans these days. The charter cats are ruling, and to be honest it seems some people don’t realize there are other catamarans available that aren’t produced by the big 3.
I think the cruising mentality has changed. People find it hard nowadays to be adventuresome without a washer dryer, dish washer, Ice maker and AC with generator, otherwise it’s just camping. And thus the wide hulls to carry the load.
If you look at the 2 boats I used as a comparison, the Freydis 49 weighs 16,500lbs and the Lagoon 50 weighs 46,000lbs.. Probably a good enough reason for the Lagoons hulls to be so wide! We once sailed on a Lagoon 410 which was kept somewhat light and had $35,000 worth of tech sails. We had 18-25 kts of wind and never hit double digits. It did handle the 6-8 ft. seas well as you expect with its weight and makes a good cruising boat.
I wonder if M&M actually like designing the new Leopards? I’m sure it’s a paycheck but at the end of the day you have to look at what you’ve done and feel some pride.
This of course is just my opinion. I think whatever one decides to purchase, if it gets them out on the water and they enjoy it thats what counts.



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You’re right and I was talking about the main producers of catamarans these days. The charter cats are ruling, and to be honest it seems some people don’t realize there are other catamarans available that aren’t produced by the big 3.
I think the cruising mentality has changed. People find it hard nowadays to be adventuresome without a washer dryer, dish washer, Ice maker and AC with generator, otherwise it’s just camping. And thus the wide hulls to carry the load.
If you look at the 2 boats I used as a comparison, the Freydis 49 weighs 16,500lbs and the Lagoon 50 weighs 46,000lbs.. Probably a good enough reason for the Lagoons hulls to be so wide! We once sailed on a Lagoon 410 which was kept somewhat light and had $35,000 worth of tech sails. We had 18-25 kts of wind and never hit double digits. It did handle the 6-8 ft. seas well as you expect with its weight and makes a good cruising boat.
I wonder if M&M actually like designing the new Leopards? I’m sure it’s a paycheck but at the end of the day you have to look at what you’ve done and feel some pride.
This of course is just my opinion. I think whatever one decides to purchase, if it gets them out on the water and they enjoy it thats what counts.
On a side note, I’m sure you miss all the Multihull “discussions” at CF!



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Ok, one more guess then I give up!. Either way it’s a fun read.
https://www.sailmagazine.com/multihulls/sailing-couple-switched-one-hull-two


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Nope. But I admire your perseverance!

I got home late last night and forgot to look. To find this article, I'll have to search the archives of the magazines on line. I've never done that before, but I'm guessing I'll have to sign in as a subscriber (which I've also never done before), so this may get involved. Fair warning: if it gets too involved, I'm probably just going to give up. You'll have to take my word for it that the article exists and that it says what I remember. :wink
 

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Here you go Mast...

LMGTFY

Have fun.
I've never seen that before! Cool!

I clicked on one of the hits that produced, thinking it might be the article I referenced earlier. No joy in that sense, but I think this particular article encapsulates a lot of what you all have been saying about the pros and cons of cats vs. monos in a very concise, readable format.

https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboats/why-cat
 

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After rereading my previous post I realize I’m sounding like the old grey beard I discussed earlier.


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