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In seriousness, I don't know how many of you guys have actually raced boats before, but many - if not most - close races are won or lost on the upwind leg. Tacking is obviously a critical part of that. And doing it very well, maintaining speed and good VMG, is very difficult to do consistently.

I regret that my statement that "most monohull sailors" tack poorly hurt people's feelings. I suppose I should have separated racers from cruisers with that statement.

As a monohull sailor who did quite a few offshore races with inshore upwind starts...after LOTS of practice as a team, I/we tacked better than most in our fleets which gave us better starts on those races. And we were given awards for that - when not everyone got one. I now understand we shouldn't have accepted those.

Even so, I still don't think I/we tack nearly as well as, say, the VOR racers on their in-ports. And I'm okay with that. It doesn't hurt my feelings.

I'm sure each and every monohull sailor above will easily beat me on an upwind run. I hope that helps.

Now - back to multihulls - one shouldn't blame the boat for one's inability to sail upwind. I'm still learning how to do it well on our beachcat. It's not nearly as easy as it was on our C27. And I'm pretty sure it's not FIASCO's fault.
 

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Wow.

What I meant to say is that all monohull sailors are just dandy. They are all people with feelings who do everything they do to the best of their abilities...including superb tacking.
What I am saying, is the sailor isn't defined by the type of boat he owns. It's irrelevant, it's a red herring.

I thought you would understand this as the Captain and owner of a spirit 17. Interesting that you think the sailors ability should be defined by the type of boat they own.
 

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What I am saying, is the sailor isn't defined by the type of boat he owns. It's irrelevant, it's a red herring.

I thought you would understand this as the Captain and owner of a spirit 17. Interesting that you think the sailors ability should be defined by the type of boat they own.
Arc, I know you and a few other like to stir up fights - but I honestly have no idea the point you're trying to make here.

Here's the deal. It was said in one of these multi threads recently something to the effect that a "professional racer" who had sailed multis his whole life lamented the fact that he couldn't tack a multi through 120°. This is without doubt blaming the boat...a multi. And it is completely wrong on almost every level I can think of. And not one mono sailor here challenged that assertion.

So, instead of getting into a fight about it, I simply posted a video here showing a charter cat getting some impressive speed upwind while being helmed/crewed by plump old dudes...not merely struggling to make way 60° off that wind.

And it has been said ad infinitum on this and most other sailing forums that cats are "poor upwind peformers". A blanket statement. That is a fact...though I'm sure some will argue otherwise because it's what they do.

So, again, I don't know what you're wanting to fight about here. I think you've summed it up very nicely...

...some folks just have differing levels of sailing ability, no point in blaming it on their equipment.
That's what I was saying.

Sincerely,

The Captain and owner of a spirit 17 (what are you implying there BTW?)
 

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I'm not implying anything. You own a small inexpensive trailer sailer just like me.

I am proud of mine, as I am sure you are of yours :)
 

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I'm not implying anything. You own a small inexpensive trailer sailer just like me.

I am proud of mine, as I am sure you are of yours :)
Ah, I see. Well, I usually don't point out the size and cost of people's actual boats as any kind of differentiator in these sailing discussions.

I love boats of all kinds. And we're all sailors.

I'm sorry I presumed anything other than complete innocence.
 

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A critical and incorrect comment is made about most mono sailors. Then the apology for it comes with a snarky attitude about hurt feelings and an accusation that someone else is starting a fight.

This will never change.
 

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Mark we maybe saying the same thing in different ways but would note the fair number of daggerboard cats successfully cruised. Agree you tend to see a spare board secured on deck. As you know inspite of the focus here on extreme weather light air is overwhelmingly more common when cruising.
In the last few years been seeing and increasing number of rotating masts on cruising boats. Not just Chris White Atlantics mastfoils. A number of NZ one offs hang in my winter cruising grounds. Over drinks other than needing to go to the foot of the mast to reef those folks report no issues. The increase in performance can’t be denied.
Similarly many modern multis sail day and night in double digits. In the above scenario have seen people either drop the headsail and under trim the main, drop the main (thinking its harder to get down in a hurry if things continue to build), go to the rotating mast alone, go dww or at least downwind to slow the boat and sort themselves out. I’m personally aware of several cruising multis were the owners tell me regardless of twa just about every sail is a beat.
Foils on a hinge located at the toenail are now offered on monos. Foils are part of the design of the rudder(s) of some production multis such as the Rapido.
If I hear you right this level of multi hull performance in a cruising boat maybe excessive. Still it fascinates me as someone who celebrates a 200m day to think about routine 300m -400m days.
 

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For sure, lots of dagger cats cruising - I didn't mean to imply differently. Breaking a board is no different than breaking anything else on a boat; it happens once in a while. I've never seen a boat cruising with a spare board and don't see the need. After all, like many things on catamarans there are two of them, and the boat sails just fine with one board. I think Kurt Hughes even designs his boats with a single board.

Rotating masts only increase performance if the boat is designed for performance and kept scrupulously light. Few cruising boats fit this unless they are large ones. The disadvantage for cruising is more complicated rigging and difficulty with wind instruments and other mast head stuff.

I've never seen a foiling monohull out cruising and can't see how bolting a foil to a toe rail will accomplish this. Even if possible, I don't see foiling boats as practical cruising boats. Weeds, logs, bad seas, etc. Not to mention trying to fix them outside of tech places. The only foiling catamaran touted as a cruising boat flipped over while sailing in protected water.

Mark
 

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I’ll try to find a link if I get a chance while waiting for paint and varnish to dry. But it’s pretty clever. L shaped foiled hinged were they cross the toerail and placed about midship. Open ocean they rotate down and provide upward lift as well as prevent falling to leeward. Where there might be debris, or docked or not necessary they rotate up to be over the deck and house but under the boom. There are videos of actual boats utilizing this technology. Standard shoal draft keels are used to generate a good Gz curve. Clever.
Guess it depends on what you think is large as regards rotating masts. See them on boats 45’ and above.
The weight thing is true for both mono and multi and motor. Load up a Pogo or Artnautica 58 or cf one off mono or multi you are defeating the NAs intentions. The result is in spite of the obvious possibilities of greater performance for multis in practice over long cruises it’s not that great.
Mr. Perry can be paraphrased as saying displacement means load carrying capability with less performance penalty but light is fast. This is an issue for performance multis when program is cruising and supports the view enhanced performance has penalties for a cruiser.
 

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I take it all back...this guy is a rockstar...


On this topic of sailing upwind and tacking, even with our crappy, bagged-out, unshapable sails on that C27, we got pretty good at sailing upwind (note the windex)...



Is this just pinching? Well it can be a fine line. One of our proudest accomplishments on that lake was beating a Beneteau 345 upwind (friendly race) back to the marina. Talking at the dock he was blown away that a C27 could sail that tight and fast - especially with crappy sails. I assured him it wasn't the equipment. Heh-heh.

Even though the usual group above are trying to paint my comment as another "attack" of some sort (a seriously tiresome game) - my point remains that most leisure sailors cannot sail upwind or tack very well - certainly not compared to racing sailors (the example in that 120° story I mentioned). That's just the truth. Over the years of racing we got pretty good at it - but I still don't consider myself great...despite the pickle dishes. It's a serious art...and those pickle dishes were mostly offshore regattas with a lot of cruising boats...not hardcore racers.

Try roll tacking a 420. Oh, sorry, that's for the cannabis thread.

I have no doubt I'm going to have a huge learning curve for getting good upwind performance and solid tacks out of our cruising multi when the time comes. But I also have no doubt that with practice I'll get pretty good at it (if I care enough to try that hard) - and will very likely be able to out-sail many, if not most cruising monos upwind. Our little beach cat is teaching us a lot in that regard. Kinda like that 420.

I already know for sure I couldn't beat FIASCO! back to the marina in our B345-crushing-C27 on this same lake. And that's saying something.

In the mean time, I encourage everyone that was offended above to post photos or videos of their upwind sailing and tacking to show me how it's done. I'm always eager to learn.
 

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Guess it depends on what you think is large as regards rotating masts. See them on boats 45’ and above.
.
What I meant was that a cruising boat that wants to carry significant weight of amenities and such must be large enough to do so and still benefit from a rotating mast. Any size boat kept light and to spec will benefit from a rotating mast, but few smaller ones will be able to carry much weight and still benefit.

I still maintain a RM does not provide a significant advantage in overall cruising and passage making. Upwind in lighter air is where almost all of the advantage of a RM lies, and this is not a typical point of sail for a cruising boat. Once reefed or off wind, the advantages are mostly gone.

For example, we spend months at a time in the Caribbean with at least one reef in our sail, and almost all reaching.

And I still don't see the practicality of cruising a foil boat as you describe. It would be something exactly opposite of what I would want to deal with while cruising.

I suppose a cruising style of spending a few months a year in the eastern Caribbean or Mediterranean mostly day sailing would make these things appealing, but full-time cruising in more remote areas with them give me pause.

I am not disparaging the above style - we know lots of people and friends who do this type of cruising.

Mark
 

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When it comes time to purchase our cat, I will intentionally avoid rotating masts. They just make no sense on a cruising boat as far as I'm concerned...adding liability for no real return.

And as for foils on monos - the whole thing just seems absurd to me, especially for cruising boats. I might change my mind at the next AC, but for now it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen...



But hey, no heel. The wives will love them.
 

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- and will very likely be able to out-sail many, if not most cruising monos upwind.
If you are talking about the individual sailors on those monohulls, then I will leave you to that discussion.

If you are talking about the boat ability itself, then you will need to more precisely define that.

Your Helia 44 (say) will beat an Island Packet 44 (say), but not a Bene 45.

And if there is a heavy seas or high short chop, you probably won't be beating many monohulls.

But I understand your underlying point. I attempted to get this thread to define monohulls when discussing performances instead of simply starting the debate by characterising monohulls in general as the performance standard.

It seems like that is the turd on the floor everyone refuses to acknowledge.

The truth is that a very large number of cruising monohulls out here start out as poorer performance designs, and are further made worse with large arches, solar panels, rails filled with fuel jugs, big Bimini shades, older sails, etc. Even more performance oriented ones are brought to mediocre by the desires of practicality and comfort.

And practicality and comfort does become paramount for a significant number of longer term cruisers. This is where most catamarans start with an advantage.

Full disclosure: we are a very overloaded catamaran and our performance suffers greatly from when we weren't. We do live comfortably and still make decent passage times (we plan for 6kts, and usually average 6.5-7.5 on passages - if we were within manufacture loaded displacement specs we would average 8-9kts).

Mark
 

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But I understand your underlying point. I attempted to get this thread to define monohulls when discussing performances instead of simply starting the debate by characterising monohulls in general as the performance standard.

It seems like that is the turd on the floor everyone refuses to acknowledge.
That's why I always try to use a qualifier like "most". It's the over-generalizations in these discussions that really make it impossible to prove anything empirically.

I remember in one of these multi threads, maybe this one, that someone ironically accused "multihull sailors of being very sensitive/defensive", etc. because you were trying to explain why many of these generalizations didn't hold water. That kind of thing is the turd on the floor as far as I'm concerned.

I've been a mono sailor since the beginning. I have nothing against monos. But I won't buy another one. And I'll be looking for that B45. I think I can take him.

Farewell.
 

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If you are talking about the individual sailors on those monohulls, then I will leave you to that discussion.

If you are talking about the boat ability itself, then you will need to more precisely define that.

Your Helia 44 (say) will beat an Island Packet 44 (say), but not a Bene 45.

And if there is a heavy seas or high short chop, you probably won't be beating many monohulls.

But I understand your underlying point. I attempted to get this thread to define monohulls when discussing performances instead of simply starting the debate by characterising monohulls in general as the performance standard.

It seems like that is the turd on the floor everyone refuses to acknowledge.

The truth is that a very large number of cruising monohulls out here start out as poorer performance designs, and are further made worse with large arches, solar panels, rails filled with fuel jugs, big Bimini shades, older sails, etc. Even more performance oriented ones are brought to mediocre by the desires of practicality and comfort.

And practicality and comfort does become paramount for a significant number of longer term cruisers. This is where most catamarans start with an advantage.

Full disclosure: we are a very overloaded catamaran and our performance suffers greatly from when we weren't. We do live comfortably and still make decent passage times (we plan for 6kts, and usually average 6.5-7.5 on passages - if we were within manufacture loaded displacement specs we would average 8-9kts).

Mark
I agree.

Even amongst mono owners you have great divisions between performance boats like C&C . and boats who sell to a condominium crowd like Hunter.

If this thread is only about cruisers like you are there is the niche where the catamarans May make inroads,. If the thread is about charter boats, certainly we see the catamarans as viable as people like the comfort spread out view . If the thread is about your 3very day weekender sailor catamarans have a disadvantage because of cost, dockage costs, and other factors.

It depends on your purpose for a boat. While build quality is great on Island Packets, they suck big time going to windward. Conmfort on the hook unbeatable. Most posters on SN are not cruisers , most are mono owners come up through the ranks,

To each his own...the only time I saw pushback on 5nis thread was when preposterous overstatement about either mono or catamarans are made . Personally I don’t think cats by nature are more dangerous, however if I had to survive a lRge wind sea event and had to choose between a 44 Hylas and a catamRan off similar size I would prefer the 17,000 of lead 5 feet below me.
 

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I agree.

Even amongst mono owners you have great divisions between performance boats like C&C . and boats who sell to a condominium crowd like Hunter.

If this thread is only about cruisers like you are there is the niche where the catamarans May make inroads,. If the thread is about charter boats, certainly we see the catamarans as viable as people like the comfort spread out view . If the thread is about your 3very day weekender sailor catamarans have a disadvantage because of cost, dockage costs, and other factors.

It depends on your purpose for a boat. While build quality is great on Island Packets, they suck big time going to windward. Conmfort on the hook unbeatable. Most posters on SN are not cruisers , most are mono owners come up through the ranks,

To each his own...the only time I saw pushback on 5nis thread was when preposterous overstatement about either mono or catamarans are made . Personally I don’t think cats by nature are more dangerous, however if I had to survive a lRge wind sea event and had to choose between a 44 Hylas and a catamRan off similar size I would prefer the 17,000 of lead 5 feet below me.
This really hits the nail on the head. Thanks. So much of the discussion boils down to each person's individual circumstances, preferences and needs.

Almost all these sorts of decisions involves compromises and trade offs... such as windward ability and comfort... For example, Shiva has high freeboard... it gives us the advantages of a flush deck and 6'+ head room below. But we pay a price in windage and she yaws about on the hook. To me this is an OK compromise.... most of the time the winds are not a freeboard issue. We avoid passages to windward... or doing them when the wind it well forward of the beam. We wait or go with lighter wind... We don't have a schedule and can do that... or just pick a destination which gives us fairer winds. Of course we get "stuck" and have to sail to windward and will at times use the iron genny to point higher and make more VMG to our destination.

Designs like boats and cars are compromises which prioritize various aspects. Sure some designs do this better than others. Some solutions are historically proven as successful. And that is what interesting design features are about.
 

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In seriousness, I don't know how many of you guys have actually raced boats before, but many - if not most - close races are won or lost on the upwind leg. Tacking is obviously a critical part of that. And doing it very well, maintaining speed and good VMG, is very difficult to do consistently.

I regret that my statement that "most monohull sailors" tack poorly hurt people's feelings. I suppose I should have separated racers from cruisers with that statement.

As a monohull sailor who did quite a few offshore races with inshore upwind starts...after LOTS of practice as a team, I/we tacked better than most in our fleets which gave us better starts on those races. And we were given awards for that - when not everyone got one. I now understand we shouldn't have accepted those.

Even so, I still don't think I/we tack nearly as well as, say, the VOR racers on their in-ports. And I'm okay with that. It doesn't hurt my feelings.

I'm sure each and every monohull sailor above will easily beat me on an upwind run. I hope that helps.

Now - back to multihulls - one shouldn't blame the boat for one's inability to sail upwind. I'm still learning how to do it well on our beachcat. It's not nearly as easy as it was on our C27. And I'm pretty sure it's not FIASCO's fault.
Carrying speed and good VMG through a tack is more difficult on some boats than others but that doesn't mean that those who sail boats that tack very easily are lesser sailors than those who sail boats that are difficult to tack. They are doing what is necessary to tack their boat well and whether or not that same technique would also work well on a cat means next to nothing. The important thing is to sail the particular boat you are aboard at the time as well as possible and that means learning all its idiosyncracies and adapting your sailing style to them and that takes awhile for all of us. Once you actually own and sail a cruising cat regularly that process will begin for you and THEN you'll be qualified to expound on mono sailors vs cat sailors and what each group is doing wrong, but hopefully by that time your broadened perspective will make doing that seem less attractive to you than it apparently is at this time. After all, miracles do happen.....
 
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