SailNet Community banner

81 - 100 of 577 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,467 Posts
Hey guys - how does an Antares 44 cat pull down around twice the amount of an FP Helia 44 for the same length and year?

 

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,467 Posts
In a tornado.

The same video shows a large sunken trawler as well. The most important lesson here was that this guy seemed to not know what he was doing and made LOTS of mistakes anchoring and even starting his engine. That's about it. He was lucky the funnel didn't get close enough to him to experience the same fate.

How are these examples relevant to this thread?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,235 Posts
I don't see why it isn't relevant. The OP mentioned safety and seaworthiness in the first post. I thought we were trying to have a balanced discussion. If one person shows a vid of a cruising cat surfing at 27 knots to show seaworthiness, why isn't it reasonable to show the other side of the coin. Or, in this case, the other side of the boat :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,467 Posts
I don't see why it isn't relevant. The OP mentioned safety and seaworthiness in the first post. I thought we were trying to have a balanced discussion. If one person shows a vid of a cruising cat surfing at 27 knots to show seaworthiness, why isn't it reasonable to show the other side of the coin. Or, in this case, the other side of the boat :)
I would love to have a balanced discussion. I think the difference in my mind is that, as I said above, I don't expect ANY boat to be "safe" in a hurricane or a tornado strike. Those situations are far beyond the envelope for cruising.

On the other hand, I do think that getting hit by an F8 or F9 is relatively likely if you're out cruising - and knowing how to control the boat in those conditions is what I'm personally most interested in from the multi sailors around here.

Controlling the boat in a tornado doesn't have much value or relevance to me in this kind of learning. So I don't really go around looking for those videos, etc. Anyway, I just thought you guys had already created a thread specifically for multi capsizes. But this ain't my thread so knock yourself out.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,467 Posts
Sure, but on autopilot can mean a lot of different things. Were they in the salon watching reruns of gilligans island on autopilot, or did they have someone standing by the over ride. Surfing at 27 knots in a cruising cat, they would be pretty foolish not to have somebody keeping a close eye on things, whether they were lucky enough to survive or not.

https://ww2.bandg.com/product/triton2-autopilot-controller/
I took another look. There's a Triton controller at the helm but I don't see one at the nav table. And by the comments, it seems there were only the 3 people aboard.

So it looks kinda like Gilligan was "steering". In any case, I certainly wouldn't want to STEER in those conditions and speeds with a freakin' AP control.
 

Attachments

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,235 Posts
. In any case, I certainly wouldn't want to STEER in those conditions and speeds with a freakin' AP control.
Why not, jog controls aren't bad to steer with. Wear a remote on a lanyard around your neck, or stuff it in your pocket. Don't know if the folks in your vid had a remote, but they are pretty common.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,467 Posts
I don't know, going 20+ knots down waves and having the choice of only 1° or 10° steering increments, plus the delay of moving back through those increments to swing the rudders? That's like steering a bicycle down a steep winding street holding string attached to the handlebars.

No thanks. I'd MUCH rather hand-steer and have a feel for what the boat is doing.

PS - Just saw your remote. It looks like it's not incrementally constrained like the helm controller (though I don't see any details on how those p/s buttons work). Still - no thanks. Not in those conditions. But it doesn't really matter because I'd likely have a drogue out and be going WAY slower than they were. So it wouldn't be nearly as much an issue.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,235 Posts
Don't knock it until you have tried it. They are not bad. I ran a 60 foot stern trawler with one (not a B&G) and I never ever used the wheel. It was good for the owners because they could drop a crewman. Basically I could run the crane and drive the boat at the same time. Which left one man to run the net hauler and one to haul the net (2 crew plus myself). The unit I had also had gear controls but no throttle. So you would set the throttles on the bridge, walk back to the crane, left hand on the remote control, right on the crane Joy. We hauled nets in some pretty rough conditions, granted, not at any kind of speed, but net hauling is not easy because you need to back into the seas so you don't blow over your trawl.

Keep in mind, in your vid, the cruisers aren't in control, they have a pro skipper with them (I think).
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,467 Posts
Yeah, as I said, I have no problem using the AP and/or a remote at much lower speeds. I've done a few thousand miles of that. And though I never quite got around to connecting it, I could have used our iPads/iPhones as AP controllers/repeaters with our iNavX/iMux setup. I would have loved that.

So, I'm all about the AP. Just not at speed in big waves...while relying on Bluetooth. Nope.

PS - I'm saying these things from the perspective of my experience on monos (and a beachcat). Maybe the cruising cat folks will tell me it's different with more responsive multis. I don't know. We'll see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,608 Posts
Thrill rides down big wave face can reach a point where it's not so good. 35 ft breaking following sea like what's common off the West coast can broach or bury most vessels regardless of expert steering.Comes a point where you turn about if you can and dodge under power until things improve. If you are North Atlantic you hope you don't ice up and roll. Lots can go wrong ,drogues chafe, loss of power .Capsizing your cat because you think it's invincible and you tube is all just tells me you need some real experience before I get impressed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,520 Posts
Are there any reasonably sized cats with a centerline master berth that you can approach from the side, like a human and not like a dog climbing into it's dog house? I know centerlines don't make good sea berths, but we all spend hundreds of times more nights at anchor than overnight at sea. My current is the first boat I didn't have to climb in from the end and it's a real game changer.
I don't "hate" Catamarans but, I have no desire to own one. I usually do at least two charters a year in the off season on them As it is my gals preference. So have been on twenty or more over the years.

The bunks are one of my biggest bugaboos about them. Every Cat we have been on requires a climb into the bunk. At first it may not seem so bad. May be fine if you are a twenty something but, it gets old (no pun intended) as you get older and have to answer natures call several times a night. I find myself at the end of a ten day charter looking forward to using a normal bed and appreciate the ease of getting in and out of the bunk on my own monohull. That's if you have no injuries like a pulled muscle which can make getting in and out of the bunk on the Cat extremely painful. We also have to make sure the layout of the bunk on our charter allows for each of us to worm out of it individually and not have to climb over each other. Which is not fun for either person.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,863 Posts
Sure, but on autopilot can mean a lot of different things. Were they in the salon watching reruns of gilligans island on autopilot, or did they have someone standing by the over ride. Surfing at 27 knots in a cruising cat, they would be pretty foolish not to have somebody keeping a close eye on things, whether they were lucky enough to survive or not.

https://ww2.bandg.com/product/triton2-autopilot-controller/
I'm not sure why the Triton AP controller was linked, or what it means, but we have a modern B&G/Simrad autopilot. If you haven't used one of the new AP's recently, you may be surprised at how well they anticipate, adjust, and steer. Better than me in pretty much all conditions. Definitely better than me in all conditions for more than an hour.

The newer autopilots, particularly those from B&G and NKE, are quite different beasts than in the old days (5 years ago). They use 9-axis rate compasses (ours even uses heave in its calculations, along with pitch and roll), accept 100hz data from all instrumentation, and have fast computers using steering and prediction algorithms developed from RTW southern ocean racing. These are the same AP's the Volvo and other race boats are using, only they have some specialized software specifically tailored to their boats and polars.

Not all current AP's are like this (Garmin appears to be atrocious), but B&G and NKE definitely are.

Mark

Edit: I see now that this AP controller shows in the video. While I wouldn't be doing those speeds in that boat, I would have no problem letting this AP have complete control. It is better than I am. Remotes are useless for instantaneous steering, like one is proposing necessary in the video conditions. They are fine for course changes, dodging, and the like - but not as a substitute for hand steering in large conditions. Leave that to the AP.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,235 Posts
Colemj, if you are telling me you have had one of the above mentioned autopilots steer you out of a broach or a steering linkage failure at 27 knots in a cruising cat, I am going to have to take your word for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,863 Posts
Notice anything?

So, again, all these various dictums about what's good and bad for ocean crossings are FAR more blurred than has been traditionally painted on sailing forums. There are a hell of a lot of swept-back spreaders out there. I would just much prefer mine to be on a multi.
This aspect is less extreme in a catamaran because of the beam. The spreaders sweep to an angle to the chainplates. The chainplates on a catamaran are much further out, so the sweep angle is less acute.

I agree that swept spreaders are no problem in any boat, but they are even less of a problem on a catamaran.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,052 Posts
The newer autopilots, particularly those from B&G and NKE, are quite different beasts than in the old days (5 years ago). They use 9-axis rate compasses (ours even uses heave in its calculations, along with pitch and roll), accept 100hz data from all instrumentation, and have fast computers using steering and prediction algorithms developed from RTW southern ocean racing. These are the same AP's the Volvo and other race boats are using, only they have some specialized software specifically tailored to their boats and polars.

Mark
This is interesting and I would love to sail on a similar boat to mine with one of the newer pilots.

In the end the AP is driving the rudder position and all that data is distilled to turns to port or starboard. There may be software which can adapt to more or less constant eave patterns... and so anticipate turns and so forth. It's hard for me to conceptualize how confused seas and gust data can be correlated into better tracking. Sure locking the helm in one position is a bad solution to steering a course.

My old Alpha does have yaw settings and "speed of response" and I can see it making lots of corrections depending on how I set the "response" and yaw. It does S at times and it seems that a helmsman could do better.... and I often hand steer in those crazy conditions... It's kinda fun. but not for more than an hr... and they I let the AP steer.

A lot depends on the boat's hull LWL, weight and of course the conditions.
 
81 - 100 of 577 Posts
Top