SailNet Community banner

161 - 180 of 577 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,467 Posts
It’s not the poll that’s interesting it’s the post by Sandy, an old employee of the NTSB.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Ah, sorry about that - this post...

Multihull Safety

by sandy daugherty » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:06 pm
Escape hatches are required by law in the CE. Thats why you see them on many cats. Their desireability is open to question.

Before I retired from the NTSB I had the oportunity to study the complete Coast Guard database of boating accidents and Summary Data of proprietary actuarial information from sources within the Lloyds' Groups, with a focus on vessels with accomodations including permanent berths, head(s) and galley. I tried to exclude beach cats and tris, and daysailers by excluding boats under 24 feet. The data was not user-friendly and required a lot of external correlation because many vessels were incorrectly classified. That ultimately prevented releasing any conclusions because GI+MGI=GO (garbage in plus more garbage in still equals garbage out.) This was also a problem with the older NTSB databases that included pre-digital-age reporting. However, I discovered in the process that there were few differences between monohul and multihull rates of occurrence. That's easy to understand; human error trumps mechanical failure and design deficiency evermore. Here are some of the facts that did become apparent: Vessels designed for racing and record attempts break. Vessels built for cruising don't break. People who race drive themselves and their vessels to the limit. [please forgive the pun] Cruisers drive their homes to the next nice place.
The rates of actual vessel loss (outside of competition) remained the same for monohulls and multihulls, over many years, with catamarans emerging slightly ahead of other vessels in the last years of available data. Reports of large numbers of catamaran roll-overs are probably anecdotal as accident statistics reveal a (slight) decline, with a slight increase in sinkings among monohulls. There was a lot of confusion in the data between catamarans and trimarans, which I can only suggest an interpretation for:

Vessels purpose built for competition are not recorded as such. Each accident had to be researched individually. Many were not insured, meaning that Insurance data would not take them into account. In fact, Many sinkings of monohulls were extremely difficult to document because they were never widely reported. This is changing as news media is becoming more interested, especially in colorful visuals.

A very small percentage of trimarans are sold for cruising, as a very small percentage of catamarans are sold for racing. The best correlation between racing and competition vessels was a ratio of lwl to mast height.

Where I was able to distinguish between cruising and competition vessels, I found that the rate of personal injuries and single fatalities was higher among monohulls. That should merit further study because those injuries appeared to occur in better weather conditions, not in worse. These accidents included cabin injuries, man-overboards, and deck injuries such as inadvertant jibes.

My conclusions were impaired by the quality of data, and my proposal of a National Transportation Safety Board Special Study was properly overshadowed by more important issues. But there is enough factual data to prove that cruising multihulls are no more, and possible less dangerous than cruising monohulls in all reported conditions of weather, traffic, and human frailty, regardless of location.
Well, there you have it.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
12,199 Posts
We’ve chartered multi hulls twice in the Carribean. Definately like the extra room. Especially with a couple of couples on board.

I learned on a Hobie 16 and my daughter and I raced them for a number of years in her teens and were ranked in NJ where we had one on the beach in front of our house. Sailing two hulls takes a little getting used to in seas over 6 ft no doubt. Close hulled is a technique learned. I love the increase in speed they have.

I doubt cats will ever increase in the northeast where there are very few moorings and dock space is expensive,
The increased cost of a cat will further divide the younger sailors from purchasing them so the demographics of the cat crowd will continue
To be the aging sailors with disposable income


Fact is one of the biggest safety feature a monohull has in increased wind is its keel and the weight in the water . I would rather be in a displacement hull than a powerboT like ride skipping like a stone across the top of the water. I don’t need a lecture about the dagger boards etc, nothing like having 7- 10,0000 lbs planted 5 ft plus under the boat.

Cats will always have a specialized niche in sailing and racing , but become the majority.....I think not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mbianka and SanderO

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
Mark I think you’ve made multiple presumptions. At present my favorite multi is a tri the Rapido 60 as some of my prior ocean racing was on tris. I posted on the R60 on this site when it first came out giving it my highest accolades. If I had the bucks I love what Nigel Irons has drawn. I pointed out White because of his novel thinking resulting in the Mastfoil rig which I believe is one of the few wing mast setups which won’t intimidate a mom and pop cruising couple. I like the cockpit in front of the house. An idea picked up since by other architects for some years now.
I have no issues with cats and would be delighted if you want to buy me a new Outremer. The salient point about twin rudders wasn’t that they are bad. They aren’t. Rather that it’s important they be executed in a stout manner. I have multiple friends cruising on cats and just like balanced spades on monos can have their issues if not done well the same applies on cats but with the added complexity when they’re farther apart. Hydraulics or linkages need to be spot on. I’ve listened to my colleagues discuss their experiences.
I’ve expressed on this thread and others demeaning cats, tris or monos as being less seaworthy than another group is just plain stupid. In each group there are definitely excellent seaboats. In each group what particulars result in a good sea boat differs but there are good and bad sea boats in each group as well. If we are to discuss interesting multi designs let’s do that. If we are to discuss seaworthiness let’s try to define what features add or detract from seaworthiness in multis. Posting videos or promotional snaps isn’t informative at a devil in the details level.
The tract record of the CW boats is unfortunate. The few I know about are used for voyaging which may impact on this record. I commented on the thought that although daggerboards are more complicated they may offer an advantage over the fixed keels of Chris’ boats. Both in safety and pointing. Would you care to discuss particular boats and design features or score points? If it’s a zero sum game you want. OK you win. However, I’d be delighted if you’ll share your knowledge and experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
322 Posts
Chris White cats usually come with shallow mini keels to protest the rudders, running gear and to allow drying out. They also have daggerboards on the same boat.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
I thought the new Atlantic 49 mastfoil didn’t have boards. Am I wrong? Is that his older 55 design?
The first multi I sailed was a CW wood epoxy tri while crewing in a Newport Bermuda. It had a daggerboard. Fast little thing but lousy motion in the absence of wind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
“Fins with adjustable flap
Two cored glass fiber fins moulded to hull bottoms, each with adjustable trailing edge flap controlled from nav station.”
From his website.

I have no experience with this feature on either mono or multi although aware of its use in early AC boats. Anyone have knowledge of this type of setup?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
In absolute terms, no. On the other hand, there aren't any 40-60' cruising monohulls that sail like a Laser, only a bit more civilized.

In relative terms, there is a whole spectrum of sailing "feeling" in cruising catamarans, just like there is in monohulls. But for both types of boats, if pure sailing joy is what you are after, you will be disappointed unless you take a nice little performance sailing dinghy along with you.

Most people associate healing and riding in sync with waves while the boat moves in a certain way as their understanding of sailing "feeling". This is more a Pavlovian response, because this is how almost everyone starts in boats, and continues for a ways before moving to a catamaran. And then the move is usually to a large catamaran - where they think they are driving a dock.

Moving from a Laser, to a J35, to a Formosa 50 will give one the same experience.

However, catamarans do have their "grooves", and a lot of the joy is to be speeding along at 9-10kts with a "dock" under you, while you play guitar, cook a good meal, take a nice nap in the hammock, or pay attention to your spread of 4-6 fishing lines.

This is also a learned response over time, and going back on a mono heeled and rolling feels more like surviving than sailing.

And what one wants for an afternoon sail is completely different than what one wants for a 2-3 week passage (or even a 1-2 day passage). Sporting sailing is fun for one and can be tedious for the other.

So it depends on what you think sailing needs to "feel" like, and to what degree you will allow that to degrade before not enjoying it. Also, how you will be sailing. Again, a 50' Oyster is not going to "feel" like a Melges 24 - so there is always going to be a degradation tradeoff.

BTW, it is a very reasonable question and didn't need a disclaimer.

Mark
Hard to keep up w/this thread, unless it's your full time job :).

Mark, I'm with you on some of this. A good friend once said to me that sailing a big monohull is like driving a truck, while sailing a 420 is like taking a sports car out on a track. And by the way, even at my advanced age, I still love taking out a 420 when I can and feeling that thing plane.

I've owned 5 cruising monohulls over 40 years of doing this from 22 to 52 feet. And I still found the 52 ft monohull to give me more of, OK, I'll use your words "pavlovian feel" that I'm looking for in a sailing experience than the 2 cruising multi-hull's I chartered.

Like most things in life, it isn't black and white. Bigger boats on average are more like truck driving than sports car driving. But for me, again for me, not for you and I get that, the feel at the wheel of sitting on the lee side of even a bigger monohull, beating, watching the tell tails on a big blade all fly perfectly, healing, feeling that perfect balance in the helm, for me in those moments, all is right with the world. It's just too important to me to consider going over to the other side.

I don't think you are saying this, but I think we need to be clear. The feeling of sailing a cruising cat is different than a mono hull. It's not just a size thing. If you like it, great, you are sailing in the real world, and making it happen for you.

But it ain't the solution for everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
“Fins with adjustable flap
Two cored glass fiber fins moulded to hull bottoms, each with adjustable trailing edge flap controlled from nav station.”
From his website.

I have no experience with this feature on either mono or multi although aware of its use in early AC boats. Anyone have knowledge of this type of setup?
Out,

Way back in the early 90's I got a ride on an AC boat as 17th crew. Oh yea, during the dark ages when AC was monohulls and no one wore helmets :). Don't ask me why I deserved this amount of fun, because I didn't. Right place, right time I guess.

I recall an inner wheel at the helm that could adjust the tab. I don't think that they played with it much, but I always assumed it was like flaps on an airplane, that would make sense to deploy at lower speeds to get more lift and would be turned straight at higher speed for less drag. Lift would translate to leeway.

And no, they didn't let me play with this or anything else, just go for the ride. Those carbon AC machines sure are noisy with lots of groans and a pile of stuff sounding wicked stressed. Pretty exciting for a mono :).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
322 Posts
Hard to keep up w/this thread, unless it's your full time job :).



Mark, I'm with you on some of this. A good friend once said to me that sailing a big monohull is like driving a truck, while sailing a 420 is like taking a sports car out on a track. And by the way, even at my advanced age, I still love taking out a 420 when I can and feeling that thing plane.



I've owned 5 cruising monohulls over 40 years of doing this from 22 to 52 feet. And I still found the 52 ft monohull to give me more of, OK, I'll use your words "pavlovian feel" that I'm looking for in a sailing experience than the 2 cruising multi-hull's I chartered.



Like most things in life, it isn't black and white. Bigger boats on average are more like truck driving than sports car driving. But for me, again for me, not for you and I get that, the feel at the wheel of sitting on the lee side of even a bigger monohull, beating, watching the tell tails on a big blade all fly perfectly, healing, feeling that perfect balance in the helm, for me in those moments, all is right with the world. It's just too important to me to consider going over to the other side.



I don't think you are saying this, but I think we need to be clear. The feeling of sailing a cruising cat is different than a mono hull. It's not just a size thing. If you like it, great, you are sailing in the real world, and making it happen for you.



But it ain't the solution for everyone.


I think quite a bit depends on the catamaran your sailing. You can’t compare the feeling of sailing say a Morgan OI to a J boat of similar length.
The type cat you sailed on charter would most likely be one designed for the charter market. There’s no comparison sailing one of these as compared to a performance Catamaran.
However, if I were just daysailing I would own a smallish performance monohull but for cruising no doubt a catamaran as the heeling for me gets very tiresome over time.
Please note, I said “for me” as I realize there are quite a lot of people who enjoy the heeling over long periods.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,077 Posts
After reading much of this interesting thread as with many discussions comparing different "platforms" it comes down to the difficulty of comparing applies and oranges. Of course since there are SO MANY variables... it's way way more complex that comparing two fruits.

And let's not forget all the psychological factors which inform our opinions and feelings about things. This aspect is quite "irrational" and so it becomes a fool's errand to claim A "feels better" than B.

And even on the technical attributes which can be compared... one's assignment of priority is yet another variable. And each factor / design attribute has an up and down side.

Cats are popular and rightly so for term charter in the tropics. These are perfect platforms for large groups of people / families desiring a shared vacation. But the size may make little sense for the single handed or couple cruising up north who mostly go out on the water for the week end or club racing.

Cats are excellent solutions for some sets of criteria and not so for others. My sense is their success is largely driven by term charter and families who want to go for long term cruising through the tropics. They will not likely overtake monos in the temperate clients, more crowded with limited docking compared to demand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,908 Posts
I don't think you are saying this, but I think we need to be clear. The feeling of sailing a cruising cat is different than a mono hull.
That is exactly what I was saying. I just furthered the point that the "feeling" on a monohull being associated with "sailing" is a learned response, and a similar learned response is gained over time on a catamaran. Once acclimated, going between the two seems strange, although one can enjoy both for what they give.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
To Sander's point, I think that it is the irrational, intangible, perceptual stuff that is the most important.

Sailing doesn't make any sense. Why would you sail anywhere? If you've got a decent sized cruising boat, it would be cheaper and faster to fly first class on a 747 that goes to weather pretty nicely.

You do it for esthetics, for feel, for how it makes you feel, to feel the spray, to listen to the sea birds, to trim the sails just right, to turn the engine off and hear and feel and....

If you just want a big party platform when you get there, a power boat would work just fine.

But if you are here, there is something else going on for you. Not just getting there, the process of getting there using an old fashioned, slow, conveyance. It must have something to do with how that feels to you.

And it's precisely that fools errand that we are all engaged in discussing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
That is exactly what I was saying. I just furthered the point that the "feeling" on a monohull being associated with "sailing" is a learned response, and a similar learned response is gained over time on a catamaran. Once acclimated, going between the two seems strange, although one can enjoy both for what they give.

Mark
I get that Mark, but I tried, admittedly for only a couple of weeks on some charter cats, and I was unsuccessful at learning this new response. Maybe it takes more time, maybe I'm too old, maybe those charter boats aren't good examples but I'm not a convert.

I just don't like how they feel under sail. I think everyone's mileage varies on this account, and I understand that cat enthusiasts clearly feel different. But feel is feel, it's not rational. But feel, is the reason I sail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
Gentlemen - I think we’re all over the place comparing apples to oranges between and in groups.
Even back in the day phrf racing you were taught “flat is fast”. Now you have a production builder selling monoramarans whatever the hell that is. Even my boat is happiest at ~20 degrees. More you just start digging a hole to leeward. Rail down is exciting but clearly time to reef as it’s slower. Current ocean monos with flatter runs like some heeling to be sure and need it to get best speed but again don’t like to be spilling air over the top of the square head. The ride is different than an Erik derived hull it’s not tender at first and then stiffens up but rather very stable once there’s a bone in her teeth at modest heel.
Ocean performance cats have a different issue. Being so fast aws progressively rises once the rags are up. With that awa progressively falls. After you’re going awhile you reef and tighten up. You may even need to do that again even in moderate air.
Experience is different. You’re on more of a beat ( relative to the wind not the sea) in higher wind if sailing to the performance envelope. There’s no “better” with this. It’s just different. Some find being on deck at a beat at higher speeds in higher wind tiring. Others find it delightful. Many cats have inside steering which is less likely to be available on monos so that’s another variable. Similarly comparing a Prout with its tiny blade main to a modern fractional or rotating mast rigged cat is like comparing a Westsail to a Pogo.
Agree with smj that we should talk more specifically as sometimes generalizations obscure relevant information.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,908 Posts
Cats are popular and rightly so for term charter in the tropics. These are perfect platforms for large groups of people / families desiring a shared vacation. But the size may make little sense for the single handed or couple cruising up north who mostly go out on the water for the week end.

Cats are excellent solutions for some sets of criteria and not so for others. My sense is their success is largely driven by term charter and families who want to go for long term cruising through the tropics. They will not likely overtake monos in the temperate clients, more crowded with limited docking compared to demand.
I have been trying to point to how these statements are incorrect, and reflect only localized observations being stated as absolutes - and I think Smackdaddy has been doing similar by posting videos and blogs of people out cruising on catamarans.

Yes, the charter market has a lot of catamarans. They also have at least equal numbers of monohulls, and most likely greater numbers of monohulls.

There are many, many, many, people cruising on catamarans long term and long distance, and few of them are larger families. Right now, we are in an anchorage with 5 cruising catamarans and 1 monohull. The cruising cats consist of one single hander and four couples. The majority, by far, of cruising catamarans we meet are owned by couples. They are also a better platform for families, but the number of families out cruising in any type of boat is pretty low.

These are real observations from New England throughout the entire Caribbean, South, and Central America. Chesapeake Bay and New England during the summer get many catamarans cruising there, but they leave with the seasons - just as they previously left tropic climates during the summer season. I've already agreed that catamarans are not good solutions for short term seasonal sailing with winter layups. However, New England has already increased dramatically in full-time catamarans in its waters being used in this manner. Nobody said they would become the predominant type of boat there, but I don't see why that topic is even interesting or what point it is trying to make.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,908 Posts
To Sander's point, I think that it is the irrational, intangible, perceptual stuff that is the most important.

Sailing doesn't make any sense. Why would you sail anywhere? If you've got a decent sized cruising boat, it would be cheaper and faster to fly first class on a 747 that goes to weather pretty nicely.

You do it for esthetics, for feel, for how it makes you feel, to feel the spray, to listen to the sea birds, to trim the sails just right, to turn the engine off and hear and feel and....

If you just want a big party platform when you get there, a power boat would work just fine.

But if you are here, there is something else going on for you. Not just getting there, the process of getting there using an old fashioned, slow, conveyance. It must have something to do with how that feels to you.

And it's precisely that fools errand that we are all engaged in discussing.
Some of us are cruising full time enjoying different cultures and a different lifestyle. Our choice of boat was more logical to us, rather than a "feeling" or something irrational or intangible. We certainly could not afford to do this by flying (even coach), and have spent lots of time in places inaccessible to anyone without a boat.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,908 Posts
I get that Mark, but I tried, admittedly for only a couple of weeks on some charter cats, and I was unsuccessful at learning this new response. Maybe it takes more time, maybe I'm too old, maybe those charter boats aren't good examples but I'm not a convert.

I just don't like how they feel under sail. I think everyone's mileage varies on this account, and I understand that cat enthusiasts clearly feel different. But feel is feel, it's not rational. But feel, is the reason I sail.
To put this in balance, many initiates to sailing monohulls spend years getting used to being heeled and rolling and how they feel under sail. Many wives won't go out on them anymore for this reason.

But I don't begrudge what you want out of a sailing feel - just adding to my case that it is a learned association and not an innate one.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
CC appreciate your post but must say there’s something incredibly pleasant about being on a heavy displacement trawler ( think Norhavn, Selene, Diesel Duck) with the engine softly ticking over just trucking along offshore. Again this speaks to preconceived ideas leading to entrenched likes and dislikes that aren’t logical. As said to Mikey “try it...you’ll like it”.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,077 Posts
I've already agreed that catamarans are not good solutions for short term seasonal sailing with winter layups. However, New England has already increased dramatically in full-time catamarans in its waters being used in this manner. Nobody said they would become the predominant type of boat there, but I don't see why that topic is even interesting or what point it is trying to make.

Mark
Mark... Cats will not replace the mono in the colder high population areas as the boat of choice for RECREATIONAL USE. And recreational use is what the VAST majority of boats are used for in these regions.

Please go to google maps.... satellite view for NorthPort NY.. you can see more than a thousand moored boats... only 1 cat.... and none in the huge Britannia Marina.

THIS tells the story. NPT is 50 miles from NYC accessible to millions of people... a beautiful protected harbor... with lots of wealth and lots of middle and working class... The one guy who bought a Cat named Lamoka used to have a Contest 36s hahahaha

Cats will make very little market penetration where the vast majority of people live and use boats for recreational purposes.

Do cats pass through in season? YES when the scurry out of the hurricane zones... live aboards...

I do not dislike cats for some uses.... I do not like them for others... and all people are the same... they have to hot all the right notes and be affordable for their play.... if not they find something wbich is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
322 Posts
Mark... Cats will not replace the mono in the colder high population areas as the boat of choice for RECREATIONAL USE. And recreational use is what the VAST majority of boats are used for in these regions.

Please go to google maps.... satellite view for NorthPort NY.. you can see more than a thousand moored boats... only 1 cat.... and none in the huge Britannia Marina.

THIS tells the story. NPT is 50 miles from NYC accessible to millions of people... a beautiful protected harbor... with lots of wealth and lots of middle and working class... The one guy who bought a Cat named Lamoka used to have a Contest 36s hahahaha

Cats will make very little market penetration where the vast majority of people live and use boats for recreational purposes.

Do cats pass through in season? YES when the scurry out of the hurricane zones... live aboards...

I do not dislike cats for some uses.... I do not like them for others... and all people are the same... they have to hot all the right notes and be affordable for their play.... if not they find something wbich is.


Sounds to me your saying cats are used as cruising boats and don’t hang in one spot long?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
161 - 180 of 577 Posts
Top