SailNet Community banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
It seems pretty clear that the Compac line of cats were strongly influenced by the Hereschoff. I’m still looking for that elusive northern Suncat, but I have located a Hereschoff America less than 4 hours from home. Having quite a bit more sail area, I don’t think the HA will rig with anything approaching the simpliciity of the Suncat. On the other hand, the 43 year old Hereschoff sells for 1/2 the price of a recent Suncat. I would possibly give up on my ambitions of trailer sailing with the Hereschoff, using the savings for a slip or buoy.

Cat sailers—what say you? Would you rather have a 40+ year old Hereschoff or a 5–10 year old Suncat, assuming I can even find one.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,244 Posts
Personally, I would rather have a Suncat. I suspect the reason Americas have so much sail area is because they need it. 2500 pounds for an 18ft boat seems a bit excessive to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Personally, I would rather have a Suncat. I suspect the reason Americas have so much sail area is because they need it. 2500 pounds for an 18ft boat seems a bit excessive to me.
You’re probably right, but the SA/Disp is 18.35 on the SC vs 22.64 on the HA. Again, I think this will play out in the Herreschoff being harder to rig, but even enthusiastic SC owners tend to concede that it is underpowered.

The other issue is cost. Herreschoff’s routinely sell for about 1/2 the price of a 10 year old Suncat.

I still don’t know if a SC will materialize close enough to create the choice. I’m hopeful, but being in the upper Midwest limits options.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Have you now ruled out all other possibilities, i.e. other boat types?
No, but given my criteria (quick rigging, easy to trailer, able to be single handed, able to take 4), catboats are good options for me. I’ve looked at 3 Potters and a Sanibel this spring, as well as 3 Cape Dory Typhoons and a Precision 18.

I wouldn’t say that I’ve ruled out anything, but I am coning in on what makes sense for me.
 

·
Sailnet Vendor
Joined
·
170 Posts
I’d want a boat that came with a trailer, that can be rigged and ready to go in and hour or two,at most. I love being able to tow my boat to far off sailing destinations for a vacation but I don’t want to get exhausted rasing the mast. I get bored sailing the same old places year in and years

With regard to costs: id like to remind you that A boat that is kept on a trailer costs much less to maintain over a couple of years than a boat that is kept in the water.

The Sun Cats are exceptionally user friendly. About as easy to rig an launch as it gets. Fun to day sail. Fast enough to take on vacation. Very well behaved.

I’ve sailed the Potter 19, Sannibel 17, and Precision 18. The cockpits are a bit crowded for four adults in heavy weather. They can all be rigged and launched in a reasonable amount of time and towed with a 3500# capacity tow vehicle

Have you looked at an old Marshall Sanderling 18 footer yet? They are lovely boats to sail, and easily fit four in the cockpit for day sailing. they can cover more distance in a day than the Suncat can. The boat can handle high winds with aplomb, compared to the other boats you’ve mentioned

I’ve never sailed or even seen the America in person.

I’m not a catboat connoisseur so this is just my non expert opinion.


Judy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,782 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: Arcb

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,244 Posts
I agree with Judys sentiments entirely. I went from keel boat sailing the same old stretch of water at a cost of about $6000 in moorage and storage fees a year to trailer sailing all over the place for about $250 a year in trailer maintenance. It cant be over stated how much cheaper trailer sailing is than renting a slip for a keel boat. Plus, I work full time, so I cant get too far on my 3 weeks vacation at 5 knots sailing but the ability to travel down the highway at 55 knots opens up pretty much all of eastern North America to me.

But, you need the right boat to make it happen and I am not sure a 2500 pound cat boat is something I would care to launch and rig on my own every time I went sailing. There are several small sloops that I would consider, they are probably not as easy as some of the small cat boats but are still quite do able.

Here is me raising the mast on my small cat boat alone. I was sailing down wind, got to a low bridge, lowered the mast, steered the boat under the bridge, then let go of the tiller and put my mast back up to continue sailing on the other side.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
There is more than one ComPac (a couple of SunCats) for sale, within a half day drive. Keep in mind that ComPac made several version of their 16ft hull. The difference essentially being the size of the forecabin. Some are not listed as SunCats, rather just generically. Check them out. A half day drive is not too bad, for the right boat.

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&manufacturer=Com-Pac&view_records=1&sb=date&so=descend
I'm in Minnesota. There is one Sun Cat at Hooper's, which is a mess. There is a 2017 Sunday Cat in Madison listed above the typical 2019 price. Other than that, there are none near me. That doesn't mean there won't be new listings, but the options are limited across the heartland. In Florida, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,782 Posts
I think you might look more closely. At a glance, I see them in Michigan, Wisconsin, even Oklahoma, which is probably a half day drive from you. They don’t all say SunCat, but look to be essentially the same thing. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
There is more than one ComPac (a couple of SunCats) for sale, within a half day drive. Keep in mind that ComPac made several version of their 16ft hull. The difference essentially being the size of the forecabin. Some are not listed as SunCats, rather just generically. Check them out. A half day drive is not too bad, for the right boat.

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&manufacturer=Com-Pac&view_records=1&sb=date&so=descend
Well, yes and no...

I follow Sailboat listings every day, along with Sailing Texas and the a saved sailboat search for Craiglist for Minneapolis, Duluth, Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay, Chicago, Dubuque and Des Moines. The thing about Sailboat Listings is that most of those ads are several years old. I've called, for example, on the Suncat in East Lansing (sold), a Sunday Cat in Texas (sold). I've called on 2 Picnic Cats (one in MN, one in WI)--both sold. Oklahoma would be 12 hour one way drive minimally. It is only the catboats and the Legacy (a rather small sloop) that the Compacs have some version of quick (5-10 minute max) rigging. There are a zillion Compac 16's, 19's and 23's out there, but they all involve the usual chore to step the mast, and rig up like any other sloop.

I do think some will come up as we get into April, but not yet. Believe me, I am looking.

Meanwhile, there is the Herreschoff about 3 hours away. It looks like a beefier Suncat or a smaller Horizon Cat. I was hoping some of you had experience with this boat. Recent surgery keeps me from driving for the next couple weeks, but if it's still for sale at that point, I will be interested. I hope by then there are also some other choices.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Here is me raising the mast on my small cat boat alone. I was sailing down wind, got to a low bridge, lowered the mast, steered the boat under the bridge, then let go of the tiller and put my mast back up to continue sailing on the other side.
What boat is that, Arcb? It looks like a Suncat or Sunday cat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Have you looked at an old Marshall Sanderling 18 footer yet? They are lovely boats to sail, and easily fit four in the cockpit for day sailing. they can cover more distance in a day than the Suncat can. The boat can handle high winds with aplomb, compared to the other boats you’ve mentioned.

Judy
Hi Judy!

No Marshalls close enough to see, although I check for them daily as well. I did make a call on a Menger Cat 19 footer on SailboatListings (which would have been as heavy as the Herreschoff), but it was sold last year already.

I agree that the Sunday Cat would be perfect. Easy to singlehand, but roomy enough for a party of four, with just enough of a Cuddy to keep some gear and a portapotty.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,244 Posts
What boat is that, Arcb? It looks like a Suncat or Sunday cat.
She is a 1986 Bay Hen 21. She's a feather weight, only 900 pounds, but carrys more sail than a Suncat.

I think the mast raising system is pretty much the same as a Suncat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
She is a 1986 Bay Hen 21. She's a feather weight, only 900 pounds, but carrys more sail than a Suncat.

I think the mast raising system is pretty much the same as a Suncat.
She must be a fantastic boat. I will add the Bay Hen to my search list!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,244 Posts
She must be a fantastic boat. I will add the Bay Hen to my search list!
Yes, i just reread your other thread and realised you were looking for sheltered water boats. Yes, she is a very nice boat for inland lakes in my opionion. I wonder if, based on your criteria you could also add Dovekies, Marsh Hens and Sea Pearls to your list. They are all sub 1000 pound cat style boats that are highly trailerable and should be affordable if you can find them.

Marsh Hens and Seapearls have semi permanent canvas doghouses in lieu of cabins, but it is somewhere to get out of the rain and keep your stuff. Sea Pearls are cat ketches which is kind of a nifty short handed cruising rig.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
926 Posts
Arcb
It appears that Rmaddy is a relative newcomer; I think that you should direct him to your excellent 'camping in the BAY Hen' series...it might give him a feel for your great boat.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,244 Posts
Thanks, as Paul mentioned I have a Youtube channel more or less focused on my Bay Hen. I am not aware of any others quite like it. Its just me cruising around on my little cat rigged trailer sailer with my wife and kids.

Here is a thread I started on my 2018 Thousand Islands Cruise.

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-videos/325354-camp-cruising-thousand-islands.html

Here is another series I did the previous year sailing the Rideau Lakes in Eastern Ontario, I dont beleive I ever shared this one on SN..

Rideau Canal: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZV-FTKynlshaVYTQQvdn92pqtZuuulJD

This summer I think we might hit Lake Opeongo in the Algonquin Park and probably back to Eastern Lake Ontario again, maybe Prine Edward County/Bay of Quinte.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,386 Posts
We owned a Herreshoff America for about 15 years, quite a few years ago. It is similar to a Marshall Sanderling and close enough to the 17 and 19’ Mengers. The America is heavier than the Sanderling and has more weather helm, but has more teak and is prettier (IMHO) than the others. We stepped and unstepped the mast with the boat in the water at a floating dock, but we kept the boat in the water in season. We had a trailer, but launched the boat via travelift as a matter of convenience. The America should be floated off a trailer—not tilted off—if you launch at a ramp. That said, I would not want to dry sail a traditionally-rigged catboat in this weight category (2500# displacement) as stepping and unstepping the mast without a mast tabernacle or a gin pole is a dicey matter for 2 able-bodied crew. Otherwise, there are lots of folks who single hand them, once they are rigged. Newbies will find a catboat easy to sail, but skill matters if you want to sail them well. You should reef a catboat when you first think about it, but they are not tender and can handle being overpowered—is just isn’t comfortable ar pretty to watch.

The classic gaff-rigged catboat is a very stable platform, due to displacement and beam for its length. They can handle snotty weather and show their workboat origins in that regard. We’ve sailed ours in open coastal waters on trips as long as 45 miles and they are quite capable in that regard, but you don’t want to be caught in open water under conditions that risk getting pooped—given the large cockpit.

Most of the catboats I’ve seen as a formerly active member of the Catboat Association were well built and have aged well. Still there are some issues to watch, like the plywood bulkhead in the Marshall cats, which are repairable and worth the effort in an otherwise sound boat.

However, all that said, if the OP wants to dry sail and keep options open for single handed launch/retrieval, he would be better served to look at lighter boats like the Arcb’s Bay Hen (and lots of others). They won’t be as comfortable or as stable as a catboat, but they are certainly are an option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
We owned a Herreshoff America for about 15 years, quite a few years ago. It is similar to a Marshall Sanderling and close enough to the 17 and 19’ Mengers. The America is heavier than the Sanderling and has more weather helm, but has more teak and is prettier (IMHO) than the others. We stepped and unstepped the mast with the boat in the water at a floating dock, but we kept the boat in the water in season. We had a trailer, but launched the boat via travelift as a matter of convenience. The America should be floated off a trailer—not tilted off—if you launch at a ramp. That said, I would not want to dry sail a traditionally-rigged catboat in this weight category (2500# displacement) as stepping and unstepping the mast without a mast tabernacle or a gin pole is a dicey matter for 2 able-bodied crew. Otherwise, there are lots of folks who single hand them, once they are rigged. Newbies will find a catboat easy to sail, but skill matters if you want to sail them well. You should reef a catboat when you first think about it, but they are not tender and can handle being overpowered—is just isn’t comfortable ar pretty to watch.

The classic gaff-rigged catboat is a very stable platform, due to displacement and beam for its length. They can handle snotty weather and show their workboat origins in that regard. We’ve sailed ours in open coastal waters on trips as long as 45 miles and they are quite capable in that regard, but you don’t want to be caught in open water under conditions that risk getting pooped—given the large cockpit.

Most of the catboats I’ve seen as a formerly active member of the Catboat Association were well built and have aged well. Still there are some issues to watch, like the plywood bulkhead in the Marshall cats, which are repairable and worth the effort in an otherwise sound boat.

However, all that said, if the OP wants to dry sail and keep options open for single handed launch/retrieval, he would be better served to look at lighter boats like the Arcb’s Bay Hen (and lots of others). They won’t be as comfortable or as stable as a catboat, but they are certainly are an option.
That’s really quite helpful. Thank you.

Yes, the plan is to dry sail. Regarding the HA, I think trailering/untrailering would be the biggest obstacle. As far as stepping the mast is concerned, there are several online who apparently retrofit their Americas with a tabernacle, at which point I think it could be raised by one.

It’s spring, and I’m eager, but I agree that the HA is not an ideal fit. I continue to look for SunCats and SundayCats within striking distance. Meanwhile, I am checking out every local boat that meets most of my criteria, and I’ve found a couple that would work with a few modifications.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top