Since you asked;

"thoughts"

You made a blanket statement without really asking first.

Frankly, it's rather rude to those of us that really try to help Delaware river sailors find meaning in having a boat on the river. I'm one of those people. There are others.

"Delaware River Recreational Sailors" is the group I'm trying to grow. Membership of 3 so far LOL Uh, No it's not listed anywhere. There is a get together planned for May 5th at Delaware City.

Join a Yacht club, 30 of em all up and down the river. DRYL.org
Marina's;
Curtains, nice, Neshaminy State Marina, ok; Riverside, Winters and snug harbor are good, silting is a problem everywhere. Phila is $$ and silted in as you know. Essington has some really nice clubs and marina's.

It's not great, but those of us on the river try to make the best of it! From my house, on the water with sails up; I can do in way less then an hour, A Big PLUS!

There are lots of activities sailing related, races are abundant also. There are 20, 30ft and larger sailboats in my YC alone, most of them race every week.

Amenities may be lacking.. but aren't they for those not out on the water?

 

Denise,

I am a member of a club in and around Philadelphia Metro area. The river itself is not the issue. It is the fact no one takes pride in producing a really good marina.

Since you asked;

"thoughts"

You made a blanket statement without really asking first.

Frankly, it's rather rude to those of us that really try to help Delaware river sailors find meaning in having a boat on the river. I'm one of those people. There are others.

"Delaware River Recreational Sailors" is the group I'm trying to grow. Membership of 3 so far LOL Uh, No it's not listed anywhere. There is a get together planned for May 5th at Delaware City.

Join a Yacht club, 30 of em all up and down the river. DRYL.org
Marina's;
Curtains, nice, Neshaminy State Marina, ok; Riverside, Winters and snug harbor are good, silting is a problem everywhere. Phila is $$ and silted in as you know. Essington has some really nice clubs and marina's.

It's not great, but those of us on the river try to make the best of it! From my house, on the water with sails up; I can do in way less then an hour, A Big PLUS!

There are lots of activities sailing related, races are abundant also. There are 20, 30ft and larger sailboats in my YC alone, most of them race every week.

Amenities may be lacking.. but aren't they for those not out on the water?

 

Tactfully put deniseO30.
NY Harbor may also have been slighted, not that I particularly care. In NY Harbor there is Liberty Landing Marina which I have never hear anyone complain about the amenities (prices, yes). Almost anything around NYC or Philly will be $$$$.
NY Harbor is not really my cup of tea because of boat traffic, currents and lack of natural setting which is why we keep our boat up by the Tappan Zee where it is naturally scenic and there is a lot more river where you can sail.
Sandy Hook has at least 1 club and there is even the Raritan Yacht Club. You might be surprised when you start looking.
Happy hunting!

 

Hi Caleb,

I was actually advocating for the NYC area. I was using it as an example to contrast it with Philadelphia. I think the NYC area has a lot of nice marinas from the Hudson to Sandy Hook and western Long Island Sound.

 

I will say that Pump outs are a problem on the River, hard to find and the few that are found don't work very well. D & S's works very well for $10 up in TullyTown PA, High tide best for keel boats.

 

For $52/2 years for boat registration and one time sales tax maybe we are getting more value than MD. At $40/ft/season I get a marina with clean toilets, free ice and friendly dock neighbors.

I am on the Delaware River because it is convenient, 20 mins from my house to the boat outside rush hour, and the Delaware Bay and Chesapeake Bay are only a day sail away.

 

Hi folks,

I sail alot on the Delaware River and in NY Harbor. There seems to be a dearth of nice marinas in NY Harbor in NYC as well as NJ. Some have some really nice restaurants, and some of them even have pools.

Why does the Philadelphia area have such crappy marinas. Helk, the Philadelphia Marine Center doesn't even dredge their marina.

I tell you. The boating experience on the Delaware River is getting worse and worse. I am thinking about moving my boat to the Sandy Hook area or Jersey City area. Yes I'll pay more but at least I'll get services and amenities.

Any thoughts on this?

I have a couple problems with the premise of your question.

How exactly do you define "nice"? From your post, it seems like you define it by restaurants and pools.

Marinas anywhere will only survive if there is sufficient demand for their amenities for them to charge enough to cover their cost (with an acceptable profit margin). So why don't marinas in Philly and NYC have these amenities? Probably because there are already so many nice restaurants and pools nearby! There is no demand for "country club" marinas in this area.

Like Ulladh and Denise, I define "nice" as 1) quick to get to from my home; 2) well enough maintained that I can trust my boat will not get beat up, and I can practice good hygiene on shore; 3) fair value for my money; 4) nice neighbors. I pay $1053/year for in-season slip (including electric and water, and I could pay only $975 if I wanted a shorter finger pier) and $300/year for winter storage on the hard. I dare anyone to find a better value.

Personally, I don't care about restaurant, pool, or fancy amenities. I want to sail and go home, not hang around the docks. Although, I do walk around and say hello to people when I'm there.

If you want a swimming pool, you can consider Corinthian YC in Essington, which has pool, huge clubhouse, and even skeet shooting. You'll need to rent a mooring ball from them. Prepare to pay $$$. And wear your ascot. lol

If you want dredging, they're doing just that at West End Boat Club, where I am a member. Rates are similar to what Ulladh pays, and it's a very friendly place.

Riverside and Winters both seem to be very well maintained marinas with good (but not fancy) facilities.

The Delaware River is the Delaware River - strong currents, 6-8' tidal swing, narrow tacking space, but very close and convenient. No marina is going to change that.

So what, exactly, are you looking for?

 

Full service yard, slips with at least 6' of water a MLW, Full Chandelry, and restaurants. NYC area marinas quite often have most if not all of those amentities. I was trying to convey the Philadelphia marina owners could learn a lot from the marinas up in the NYC area.

 

Philadelphia Marine Center has deeper slips closer to the wake protection and a whole neighborhood of great restaurants in Northern Liberties just across Delaware Ave, or a short few blocks to Yards Brewery, Sugarhouse Casino and more great restaurants in Fishtown.

Penns Landing, where management gives the impression they would rather not have boats in their marina is a short few blocks to Old City and even more restaurants. Zahav on Dock Street near 3rd is amazing and reasonably priced.

Take a transient slip at Phila Marine Center and enjoy the nightlife.

 

The Philadelphia Marine Center is AWFUL! They don't dredge their slips! I see sailboats on the hard 1.5 hours either side of low tide, their ships store is almost non-existent, their gas/diesel station is old and never works well, and on top of that their service stinks.

 

Amazing sunsets while sitting on the deck at Curtain's wharf in Burlington! $$$ but worth the sunset. I've never been asked to pay for "parking" the boat while dining there. Maybe because so many people don't know how to get in with current hitting the boat broadside. lol
On Philly, the OP lives there and doesn't know how much the City has to offer? I find that hard to believe. Even the Liberty Bell (which is cracked) is a reasonable walk from the water front!

 

Yamsailor

I sail alot on the Delaware River and in NY Harbor. There seems to be a dearth of nice marinas in NY Harbor in NYC as well as NJ. Some have some really nice restaurants, and some of them even have pools.

Why does the Philadelphia area have such crappy marinas. Helk, the Philadelphia Marine Center doesn't even dredge their marina.

I tell you. The boating experience on the Delaware River is getting worse and worse. I am thinking about moving my boat to the Sandy Hook area or Jersey City area. Yes I'll pay more but at least I'll get services and amenities

I am not sure I agree with your original premise. There are nice places to sail on the Delaware as well as nice people who sail there also.

Before I would drive to the Jersey Shore/ NY harbor I would drive down the the Chesapeake which is only a 1.5 hour drive.

There are many different people who have diffferent reasons for boating and use their boiats in different ways. There are also a large contingent of orgabnized sailnetters who occasionally get together on the Chesapeake.

Rick ( Rhythymdoctor) like the convienence of having his boat close by and uses it for a days recreation. as well as an occasional overnighter) He doesnt care about the social aspects of the place he keeps his boat, Udualla takes long excursions for weeks along the whole Delaware and tries its estuaries. Denise sails often and takes a long trip every year and transits to the Chesapeake or maybe this year down to the Cape and up to Atlantic City. She is actively involved in the social aspects of her marinia and organizations she is invilved with along the Delaware. Everyone has theire preferences. Tidal change and current are usual factors faces by the boatsers on the LI Sound with as much as a 10 ft tide change in every cove and horbor and a 3 knott plus curent.

We prefer the Chesapeake because we utilize our boats as a second home on the water every weekend. We belong to the oldest yacht club on the Chesapeake. Their is no one wearing an ascot here, just people who enjoy the water and a lot of commradiere, some socialization and 1st clkass amenities with a restauarnt, pool, bbq areas and pavillian, long 15 foot wide piers with finger piers between each boat 6 ft acroos going out at least 25 ft beside your boat. It is also a hurricane hole protected from winds from every direction and the slip fee is for year round. By the way we have a 32X19.5 slip for 38/fft which is very competitive and cheaper than most on the Chessie. We go to our boat every weekend march-dec and leave her in the water during the winter 2 out of every 3 years. We like the Chessie because every weekend we can find some neat quiet tributaty or estuary to gunkhole in with bald eagles, or we can go to a major center/ area like Annapolis, St Micheals in a day, dinghy in and go to an upscale restuarant or just get crabs. We like the camradiere of our club where there are over 60 sailboats where sometimes we raft together or learn from each other in terms of sailing. We also venture from our protected waters every summer for a 3 week trip down the Deaware River to Cape May, up the Jersey Coast to NY and out the Long Island Sound. We are always glad to return to our home area as a continous diet of ocean type sailing like NY Harbor with few places to drop the hook does not fit our overall needs although we like the area up there also. The LI Sound is more like the Chesapeake. Different poeple like where they are for differnt reasons and have different needs. No need to judge good or bad....just different

Dave

 

...He doesnt care about the social aspects of the place he keeps his boat...

Dave - You have it mostly right. But the biggest issue with hanging out on the boat is jet noise at the end of the Philly runway. That's the price we pay for being close to home, which unfortunately also kills the idea of hanging out with people at the marina.

There may come a time in the next 1-3 years when weekending on the boat becomes more viable, and at that time we could look to move down to the bay (and perhaps a larger boat that's suitable for comfortable weekending/cruising). When/if the marina becomes a "home away from home," the social aspect becomes a lot more important.

 

Yam
Perhaps our definition of AWFUL differs. The Phila marine Center does get dredged, maybe not as often as we would all like. I have only been a transient there, probably not long enough to comment on the service but I did not experience any problems.

This is a noisy marina, clubs, Dave and Busters, traffic on Delaware Ave and Ben Franklin Bridge, my experience is that it was more noise than Essington under the PHL take off and landing.

But it is a great location to take advantage of center city and the historic district, and it just feels cool to sail by the huddled masses along the Phila bulkhead.

 

I know some members of Liberty Sailing Club. They all say they can't get out of their slips 1.5 hours either side of low tide. That is 3-hours they can't leave or enter their slips, twice a day--no way to run a marina.

 

There have been attempts at more up-market marinas in Philadelphia but none have got very far.

The Waterfront Square development had a marina in its original plan, and the marina is still in the condo documents, but was never built.

The Sugar House Casino proposal included a marina, but lots of scaling back including no marina.

The Foxwoods Casino that did not get as far as ground breaking for many reasons also included a marina.

Marinas at high property value locations cannot stand alone financially and need to be part of a value added feature to a larger development. The Penn-Praxis master plan for the central waterfront includes more marina locations, but without investors in major waterfront developments they are unlikely to happen.

 

\
DO you see a pattern there? I know some people who worked on all those projects. I was told the only reason marinas were put in those designs was to appease the people who wanted some type of water front access. After the permits came though, the plans to build each of thise marinas were scrapped (i.e., the developers never intended to build the marinas)

 

Yam, if Philly had something as nice as, or nicer than, anything in NYC,* it would throw off the whole Bos-Wash corridor equilibrium, altering the Masonic balance the Founding Fathers carefully designed, causing stock markets to plummet and possibly the entire east Coast to crack off and float toward Bermuda.

Now, you wouldn't want that, would you?








* The only exception to the Bos-Wash Equilibrium Theory is the cheesesteak. Each city is allowed to have one superior indigenous food stuff. Washington still has not found one.

 

ROFLMAO, I LOVE IT!!!! LOL:laugher

Yam, if Philly had something as nice as, or nicer than, anything in NYC,* it would throw off the whole Bos-Wash corridor equilibrium, altering the Masonic balance the Founding Fathers carefully designed, causing stock markets to plummet and possibly the entire east Coast to crack off and float toward Bermuda.

Now, you wouldn't want that, would you?

* The only exception to the Bos-Wash Equilibrium Theory is the cheesesteak. Each city is allowed to have one superior indigenous food stuff. Washington still has not found one.

 

I'd also guess, that most of the river located Marina type places when built were after the rather lucrative motor yacht business. Which of course has died off considerably.

 

I'm no expert in this, and not trying to make excuses, but intuitively I think the density of wealth in NYC is a lot higher than Philly, so you get the megayachts there to pump up the local marine economy.

So what's wrong with Winter's/Riverside (adjacent marinas under same ownership)? Between the two of them they have a full service yard, chandlery, restaurant (with others a short walk away), 6' depth on some or most docks.

I'm not sure the issue with the Philly area is lack of pride. It's lack of demand and dollars. Pride doesn't pay the bills. The supply and demand curves have to cross, and I'm not sure they would for a high-end marina in the Philly area. Rhythm Doctor

Not sure I agree with anything said here.

I do not beleive it is an issue of wealth. Philly has its Main Line and Chestnut Hill so there are is a "wealthy base" of people.

To compare NY and Philly is like apples and oranges. One is close to the ocean....has a major sound to sail in to the north- the LI Sound doted with many water communities coves ( BTW the current and tidal change is at least the Delawares Rivers and more in some spots) and rivals the Chesapeake for desirability for a boater. It also has NY bay and the North Jersey area to sail in.

Its hard to compare that to a River flowing by Philly which is barely 1 mile across. The port of NY which includes bayonnne, staten island etc is huge compared to the wwaterfront in Philly which is proabbly smaller than Baltimore which I am close to.

For a sailboater ( This is in no means a denigration of where you keep your boat, but for someone who like weekends gunkholing or traveling from Port to port, the Delaware River is not interesting for us. There are no real places to anchor compared to the Chesapeake or the LI Sound.

Lets face it, sailing on an estuary is different than a large body of water like the Chesapeake, Sound or the Ocean. It cannot nor should not be compared against each other and certainly has nothing to do with wealth ( Philly has the Main Line and Chestnut Hill) or the city it is close to.

Philly is many things, but will never be confused with sail boating or a recreational boat capitol.

Just an FYI I am a Phidelphia native, root for all the Philly teams still and my family lives in the area still. We either kept our boats on the Chesapeake ( unless it was a water ski one) or in Ocean City, NJ where I also lived for 18 years

Dave

 

I think you make some very good points. I do think one high end marina would work on the Delaware. It could cater to both sail and power boats.

 

Dave - I agree with everything you said. I think I mentioned elsewhere that the Delaware River has limited attractiveness for recreational boating compared to other places, and no amount of wealth or fancy amenities will overcome that for people who are willing to travel to get to those other places.

 

All through the season even early and late, DRYL members with power boats start visiting other clubs. To not be part of this is a major loss of fun on the river. Example, last summer Bristol YC had a Crab Fest. OH MY GAWD it was amazing! Then Bordentown YC has sandbar parties, If you not a DRYL member at least befriend someone that is! LOL

And Rick, West End Rocks!
and oh, the DRYL is having it's annual dinner at my YC this Saturday! (but I won't be there)

 

The Chester marina was to be part of the Soccer Stadium, restaurants, supermarket and condominium development, The "Union" stadium was built then 2008 happened, and the money dried up.

The basin beside the stadium needs dredging for the marina, all the bulkheads are in good condition, but without lots of investment in infrastructure it is not going to happen in a city that cannot met its school payroll, and had its controller shot at a gas station last week.

The stadium is a success, revenue is up and another stadium deck is proposed, so sometimes if you build it they do come.

 

Good example. I think there is enough money in the Philly area to support a nice marina. As your example demonstrates, I think it just takes some vision and a "can do" attitude.

 

I'm on the Delaware River all right, only at the mouth; Lewes, DE
We're more interested in the sailing aspects of a venue as opposed to the "amenities".
The lower bay wind and waves, can and often does change abruptly which sometimes makes for a white knuckle ride. Slip fees in Lewes rival that of Annapolis because of supply and demand, so we have been moored up the Broadkill river for 50 bucks a year. It's 10 minutes from my house and one hour to the bay.
This year we are looking at several marinas on the Wicomoco and Pokomoke rivers, for the purpose of doing some serious gunk holing in 2012. Amenities be damned, but like minded sailors are graciously welcome to out best efforts at hospitality.

Dick

 

Flybynight,

How far by car to Cambridge or Oxfoprd. The Choptank is a great gunkholing venue and openas the whole middle Bay up for you.

Dave

 

It's 46 miles ~ 1 hr. by car.

 

HIJACKING THIS THREAD! lol

Now that we are friends....

Delaware River Recreational Sailors. "DRRS"

Yams, want to be included in this motley crew?

May 5th get together at Delaware City right?

 

Yam,

I've contemplated this many times. My slip neighbor and I had a lengthy conversation last summer about the options in the NYC area. ( he's considering a move) I tend to agree with your premise, in that..given the relative amount of boaters in the area, and the amt. wealth; the quality of the options available seem limited; to the point where, I don't think people choose their marinas in the NYC area for their amenities. I'm going to venture a guess that their choices are more about access: travel distance from home, access to the waters they want to be near, and the activities they partake in, Racing, cruising, daysailing, Fishing etc. Some of the marinas on the Hudson are downright rough. Lincoln Harbor comes to mind. Newport in Jersey City is a bit nicer, but some of the docks are falling apart.
Both are bouncy. Liberty landing is probably the most protected on the lower hudson, and you pay a price for it. Raritan YC , Keyport are all moorings. Great Kills has a mix of moorings and slips, but you'll pay the bridge tolls to get to SI every time you go to the boat. Then there's the Highlands, Perth Amboy municipal, Lockwoods and I'm sure I missed a few.
In short, there are compromises to be made with every choice up here. I don't think there's a place that " Has it all" I think all these places have positives, depending upon what your particular wants and needs are. But, you will also give up something with any choice.

I can't speak to the Delaware choices. I've sailed out of Winter's. It seemed narrow and shallow. I've been to the marina on the Cohansey, Hancock Harbor? Pretty rough, and isolated, but it might be perfect for someone who lives nearby.

No intent to insult the Delaware bay sailors, but if you're closer to the Chesi than to NY I would find a nice spot on the Chesapeake. In the NY area you'll pay top dollar and make compromises wherever you go.

 

So Yams original question was "Why does the Philadelphia area have such crappy marinas."

Could it be that the Chesapeake is so close that it is a real alternative for those boaters that crave better amenities, leaving those of us less picky to our lot.

 

Frankly, I will always take less amenities- it usually means less hassles and tighter friendships.

 

bljones
A agree with you less amenities usually mean a better dock side atmosphere. I enjoy reading your blog on the goings on on dock 6.

I would like to have a bar or restaurant close to the marina rather than the 4 or 5 block walk I have, but we have a nice gazebo over the water and in the summer someone will always offer a beer.

We have free ice and a clean bathroom, what more would anyone want.

 

Enough depth to get out of a slip and into the river at low tide.

 

My slip, 2 in from the outer tee, is 19ft water depth at low tide. Closer to the shore it shoals to 5ft, and the travel lift shoals to about 3ft at low tide.

The outer tees at Anchorage Marina, 3 marinas up river from me (1 block by land), are all in the low 20's at low tide, with shoaling close to shore about 3ft.

Water depth in the channel behind Little Tinicum is in the low 20's shoaling to the low teens at the up river airport end and the down river Darby Creek end.

So if you can tolerate the aircraft noise you will never be constricted by draft.

 

It's a very temping location! and West End YC rocks! I wonder about my choices lately.. but with the cost of gas for driving it's looking like staying put is best option me.