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Discussion Starter #1
I thought you might be interested to know that Westmarine has a "Fantastic Friday" sale on their WM-branded paints today.

I've used Pettit Vivid the last 4 years, but want to change to a traditional ablative this year. I was thinking of Pettit Ultima SR-40, but Practical Sailor shows PCA Gold giving similar or better performance at the 20-month mark. So for $159 I think I'll give that a try this time.
 
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Rant on..............
I'm a little ticked off at WM right now. Last Friday they had a fantastic deal on a Garmin plotter. I went to the web site no more than 30 seconds after the email arrived and they were sold out. My email program checks every two minutes, so 2 minutes and 30 seconds after the emails left they sold out? I even emailed them about and got no replies.
Rant off..........
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Rant on..............
I'm a little ticked off at WM right now. Last Friday they had a fantastic deal on a Garmin plotter. I went to the web site no more than 30 seconds after the email arrived and they were sold out. My email program checks every two minutes, so 2 minutes and 30 seconds after the emails left they sold out? I even emailed them about and got no replies.
Rant off..........
I got that email also. It clearly says "In stores and online" and "Limited to stock on hand". My guess would be that they may have shipped all their clearance stock to the stores. Did you call a local store to see if they had one? I suspect that one of the objectives of these "loss leaders" is to drive traffic to the stores so you'll buy something else in addition.

Just for the record, WM had plenty of paint when I went there. But just in case, I followed my normal practice of calling the store before heading out to be sure that they had the grade/color that I wanted in stock. (They held a gallon for me.)

I'm sorry you didn't get the chartplotter that you wanted. I suspect that, like any store, they can't predict how quickly their inventory will deplete once the email goes out. And sometimes there are server replication issues on the receiving end that cause delays for some people in getting the emails. FWIW, my email on the chartplotter deal arrived Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 7:49 AM EST. When did yours arrive?
 

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"When did yours arrive? " I cleaned up my emails today so I can't say when it arrived. I can say it arrived after 7:49 EST because I turn my computer on after at least 8:30 and the mail arrived well after that. Yes I should have called the store. It is in Knoxville, a good hour away. Oh well, maybe something better, newer, bigger, faster will come my way before the boat goes in the water.
 

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"When did yours arrive? " I cleaned up my emails today so I can't say when it arrived. I can say it arrived after 7:49 EST because I turn my computer on after at least 8:30 and the mail arrived well after that...
You can probably thank your ISP's server-side anti-malware filtering for slowing down the delivery.
 

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I went into my local store, the email was clearly in CAD, with the different paints on there. My local store had CPP for $214+tax and that was it, so their $149-$214 range was clearly crap since CPP is their cheapest (and it's junk). They even had the nice posteR with it all on there, I wanted the PCA Gold stuff, can't buy that apparently. Waste of time.
 

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I
ve used the PCA the last 4-5 yrs or so on my boat. For here in Puget sound, works well.

Rumour has it, it will be getting a slight formula change. As Bayer bought the rights to the algacide, and did not renew the license. So the copper count is going up to make up for no ALgaecide. The algaecide is why I like it over the Micron I was using, as I seem to have more algae issues on the hull vs hard stuff. At least this is the case for me any how.

Time to find a paint with some other algaecide version in it.

Marty
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I
ve used the PCA the last 4-5 yrs or so on my boat. For here in Puget sound, works well.

Rumour has it, it will be getting a slight formula change. As Bayer bought the rights to the algacide, and did not renew the license. So the copper count is going up to make up for no ALgaecide. The algaecide is why I like it over the Micron I was using, as I seem to have more algae issues on the hull vs hard stuff. At least this is the case for me any how.

Time to find a paint with some other algaecide version in it.

Marty
Yeah, there's definitely some signs of changes happening in the formulations. PS started listing the biocide as NCN (instead of Irgarol) a couple years ago - for both PCA Gold and Ultima SR-40. I think NCN may be a generic acronym for the IUPAC name for Irgarol 1051, so my guess is that they went to a knockoff product (probably from China). WestMarine no longer lists Irgarol for PCA Gold, but Google searches bring up an older page on the WestMarine site that still lists Irgarol - but you can't browse to it, you can only get there with a Google search. Ultima SR-40 still lists Irgarol, but similarly, you can't browse to it on WestMarine's site - you need to use Google to locate the page.

So there are numerous signs that Irgarol is gone from PCA Gold, but hopefully the generic replacement is equivalent.

Regardless, I had to buy something in the next few weeks, the price was right, and I had $20 of certificates that would have expired soon, so I went ahead and took a shot with PCA Gold.

EDIT: I just checked the label on my can of PCA Gold. The active ingredients are 40% cuprous oxide and 2% NCN. So there is an algaecide in it, and it's identical to Irgarol 1051.
 

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On my old boat I ended up alternating between Pettit SR-40 and PCA Gold based on whichever was cheaper when I went to purchase it. Sometimes the name brand paint would actually be cheaper on sale combined with mail in rebates.

When we bought the new boat, the old owner had been painting it with Hydrocoat (the non-SR version) and we continued doing so. Even though it’s only been a single season so far, the Hydrocoat isn’t performing any worse than the more expensive biocide paints. And in addition to being cheaper, it was easier to apply, much less smelly during application, and easier to clean up. We’ll see how it continues to hold up going on a second season.

One thing with the biocide paints I noticed on the old boat is that the slime reducing properties only seemed to make a noticeable difference for the first 3-4 months after launch. By the time the water’s extremely warm in July and August, the only things that keep the soft growth away are having the boat cleaned regularly and taking it out for a good sail (or motor) not less than once a week.
 

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Not sure if NCN and Irgarol are the same per say. If it is, then why is the copper content up vs the version with Irgarol? Generic versions are supposed to be equal to name brand versions. So more copper to make up would/should not be needed. I would have to look at the actual chemical name of the NCN to see if it is the same.

I know in the Horticulture field, Round Up/Glyphosate comes in more than one brand. Ortho sells it as Kleenup, Lilly Miller as Knockout. They all list glyphosate as the active ingredient. So would need to do the same with NCN and Irgarol.

I will be interested in knowing how the new formulation works. As I will need to repaint in the next 6-12 months. Altho I may do a complete sand down, epoxy and new paint. With the new regs in Washington state coming with no copper after 2020 or there abouts, I may go with one of the non copper based paints.

Marty
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Not sure if NCN and Irgarol are the same per say...
You can be sure that they are the same molecule per se. NCN and Irgarol 1051 have the same CAS# (28159-98-0).
...If it is, then why is the copper content up vs the version with Irgarol?...
I do not know where you got this idea. PCA Gold and Ultima SR-40 have been 40% copper content for as far back as I can find, and still are, based on my observation of labels on the paint can.

I think you're confusing it with some other paint.

The only difference I can see is that the paint can label and Pettit marketing literature no longer use the trade name "Irgarol," which is appropriate if they are no longer purchasing the chemical from BASF. However, the still list the full IUPAC name of NCN (N-cyclopropyl-N-(1,1-dimethylethyl)-6-(methylthio)-1,3,5-triazine-2,4-diamine) on their active ingredient list.

I can find no evidence that BASF has sold the Irgarol trade name to Bayer.
 

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You could be right, I might be thinking of a different algaecide. OR, BASF just bought Irgarol. Any way, I was talking to a Interlux rep at the local boat show in February, he made the same comment about one of the algaecides going off the market due to someone not renewing the license with the feds.....which is screwing up supply on some paints for the last 2-4 months. Almost corrected. A person that knows Petit pretty well was also telling me the same thing.

Marty
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Antifouling Companies Struggle with the Loss of Herbicide Irgarol | TotalBoat Show

Antifouling Companies Struggle with the Loss of Herbicide Irgarol
Posted on March 13, 2015 by Kristin


Your go-to antifouling paint may be different than it was last season.

As a boat owner, debunking the science of which bottom paint to use can be puzzling. Choosing the right antifouling for your boat will depend on many factors including your location, the current and the water temperature as well as what type of boat you have and how frequently you use it. Success with a particular bottom paint usually equals a loyal brand customer who relies on similar results season after season.

So then, if a main ingredient that was touted as being *key* to the antifouling side of boat bottom paint all of a sudden disappeared from the contents, are we ill fated to depend on our tried and true (maybe even blue!) paint? Enter Irgarol: The algaecide supplied by chemical giant BASF and widely relied upon by most marine paint manufacturers to control “soft growths” like slime and plant growth that has very recently been discontinued as a bottom paint ingredient.

BASF seems to have caught the bottom paint industry off guard with their announcement late last year, and while manufacturers of the Irgarol dependent paint hope that in just 6-9 months it could be in production again, there is no guarantee, and certainly these companies had to act quickly to be ready for bottom paint season with an alternative. There are a number of popular antifouling paints that are being affected by BASF’s discontinuation of Irgarol.

Interlux:
Micron Extra, Ultra, ACT, VC17m Extra
Pettit:
Trinidad SR, Trinidad Pro, Ultima SR 40, Ultima SR 60, Hydrocoat SR
*SR-21 will not be available until Irgarol is re-released (available at JD.com)
Seahawk:
Cukote Biocide Plus, Tropikote Biocide Plus
West Marine:
BottomPro Gold, PCA Gold
Blue Water:
Copper Pro SCX, Copper Pro SCX Hard, Copper Shield SCX

As a distributor of most of the bottom paints listed above, when Jamestown Distributors got word about the Irgarol shortage, we, like many other suppliers, ordered as much stock as possible of these Irgarol formulated paints to help customers seamlessly prepare for spring launching. Supplies are limited, however we do have these paints in stock and will sell them while inventory lasts. In fact the non-Irgarol replacement paints are also already in stock and for sale by most suppliers, including JD, and we have worked hard on our website to make sure it is clear to customers whether the paint you are buying contains Irgarol or doesn’t.

The moral here: Buyers, be aware of what you are buying. It may not be apparent to you as the consumer if you are using paint with Irgarol or paint without Irgarol. Read the labels carefully. The cans look similar, the type in most cases is small and it can be difficult to tell the two formulas apart.

Jamestown Distributors is sharing this information with our customers because our nearly 40 years of experience and expertise with marine coatings has proven that consumers care about the ingredients and performance of their bottom paint. Our own line of six different TotalBoat bottom paints were all developed without Irgarol and we are obviously glad to stand tall in the industry with our own proven growth-fighting bottom paints, without the distraction of reformulating our product line.

So be informed, read your paint can labels, check the product descriptions at JamestownDistributors.com and monitor your paint’s performance this season. Additionally, we invite you to come aboard the JD Bottom Paint Survey, and be a part of our own research & development of antifouling paints and their performance specific to your boat’s location. The more we know, the more YOU know!

Happy Antifouling! Let’s go boating!
 

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I missed the one day sale, but they have my paint (PCA Gold) on sale from 3/19-22 for $50 less ($150/gal). They also have Cetol quarts 'buy one, get two'.

So, for the $200 I have budgeted for bottom paint, I'm also going to get 2 quarts of teak sealer.

I think that's a pretty sweet deal.

Ken
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I missed the one day sale, but they have my paint (PCA Gold) on sale from 3/19-22 for $50 less ($150/gal).
You got yours for even less than I did, but mine has the NCN/Irgarol anti-slime additive. I called the local store yesterday and the only cans they have left are lacking the additive.

When you buy yours, you might want to look over every can of PCA Gold to see if you can find one with the "Stops Slime" red starburst on the label. That - and the ingredient list - is your best guide for finding the best paint.

Oh, and it's time for me to eat crow. blt2ski was right, and I was wrong.

 

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When you buy yours, you might want to look over every can of PCA Gold to see if you can find one with the "Stops Slime" red starburst on the label. That - and the ingredient list - is your best guide for finding the best paint.
I saw this too late, but I'm fine.

My new gallon matches last year's; both have the "Stops Slime" red starburst.

Ken
 

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I've been using Pettit SR 21 or West Marine FW 21 (same thing). Just got two quarts of FW21 from WM online for $49.99 each, free shipping. Don't know how long the sale price is good. Regular price was $59.99 and the cheapest I've seen the Pettit was $69.99. Local WM store mgr. told me about the supply problem, said "once it's gone, it's gone". Was probably trying to get me to buy out his stock. I can't believe they're not going to replace it with something.
 
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