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Outboard/Rudder Question: Noob Alert!

1364 Views 16 Replies 6 Participants Last post by jeremiahblatz, 12 mo ago

lcgrant

Discussion Starter · 12 mo ago

Good evening all,

I learned to sail first on Sunfish then on a J-24. Now I have this O'Day 192 that I have only taken out once. It has a Honda 5 HP 4-stroke. The (dumb) question I have is... how do I de-conflict the outboard and the rudder? I have a hard time managing them simultaneously. Am I supposed to? Should I wait until I stop motoring to slip the pintles into the gudgeons? I worry about losing the rudder by installing/removing while under way. Am I over-thinking this?
Told you it was a dumb question!
Thanks.

Chris

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Sailormon6

· #2 · 12 mo ago

When the boat has an outboard rudder and outboard motor, I steer the boat with whichever works best under the circumstances. When I'm motoring in a straight line, I center the motor and steer with the rudder. If you're motoring forward and steering with the motor, the rudder will follow the direction that the motor is taking it. If I need to turn in a very tight circle, I turn the motor. Sometimes I'll turn the motor one direction and turn the rudder the opposite direction. In that case, the rudder provides resistance while the motor is pushing. That causes the boat to make an extremely tight turn.

Not a dumb question at all. Using the rudder and motor aren't as simple as you might think.

Reactions: 1

JohnBPrice

· #3 · 12 mo ago

lcgrant said:
I worry about losing the rudder by installing/removing while under way.

Attach a length of line to the rudder, if you drop it you can haul it back up and try again.

Sailormon6

· #4 · 12 mo ago

What do you mean "conflict?" Is the motor's prop striking the rudder? Or, do you mean conflict in the sense that the two are operating contrary to each other?

SchockT

· #5 · 12 mo ago

Use the outboard to propel the boat, not to steer it. Use the rudder for steering.

My first boat had an outboard and a removeable rudder. I took the rudder off when not in use merely to prevent growth and keep it as fair as possible. It was always installed when I was using the boat. The only time I turned the outboard was for reverse since it did not have a reverse gear. I had to rotate the engine 180° to back up.

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Reactions: 1

Sailormon6

· #6 · 12 mo ago

Why shouldn't we use every tool at our disposal to accomplish a task? Lots of boats are steered only by an outboard motor, such as jon boats and inflatable dinghies. They don't have rudders at all. The fact that you can point the thrust of an outboard motor in any direction makes it a powerful tool for steering a boat. Why shouldn't we use that tool?

jeremiahblatz

· #7 · 12 mo ago

In tight quarters you can get a much tighter turning radius if you steer with both the rudder and the outboard at the same time. If you're worried about the outboard's blades hitting the rudder, you can install a metal or plastic hoop around the blades, or get a new motor mount that prevents contact. Anyway, you should always have your rudder attached while underway. Outboards do die suddenly, and you might want to be able to steer if yours does.

SchockT

· #8 · 12 mo ago

Sailormon6 said:
Why shouldn't we use every tool at our disposal to accomplish a task? Lots of boats are steered only by an outboard motor, such as jon boats and inflatable dinghies. They don't have rudders at all. The fact that you can point the thrust of an outboard motor in any direction makes it a powerful tool for steering a boat. Why shouldn't we use that tool?

I guess it depends on the boat, but on most outboard powered boats of any size steering with the outboard means hanging over the stern to reach the engine tiller. It makes way more sense to use the rudder to steer because the tiller extends into the cockpit, and may even have an extension. It will be more comfortable, and safer with better visibility.

Certainly trying to mount the rudder on transom when the boat is under way, or out in chop is a bad idea. The rudder should be in place before you leave the dock.

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lcgrant

Discussion Starter · #9 · 12 mo ago

Sailormon6 said:
What do you mean "conflict?" Is the motor's prop striking the rudder? Or, do you mean conflict in the sense that the two are operating contrary to each other?

I don't think the prop itself makes contact with the rudder (at least not in the 'kicked-up' position) but the two are close enough that each limits the range of motion of the other. My boat is on the hard right now. If I hadn't just fallen out of the boat onto my gravel driveway, injuring my shoulder and breaking the step ladder in the process, I would probably mount them both and figure it out.

lcgrant

Discussion Starter · #10 · 12 mo ago

SchockT said:
I guess it depends on the boat, but on most outboard powered boats of any size steering with the outboard means hanging over the stern to reach the engine tiller. It makes way more sense to use the rudder to steer because the tiller extends into the cockpit, and may even have an extension. It will be more comfortable, and safer with better visibility.

Certainly trying to mount the rudder on transom when the boat is under way, or out in chop is a bad idea. The rudder should be in place before you leave the dock.

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The throttle/steering arm of the outboard on this 19 footer is easily reached from the same perch as I use the tiller so there's really no issue there.

SchockT

· #11 · 12 mo ago

lcgrant said:
The throttle/steering arm of the outboard on this 19 footer is easily reached from the same perch as I use the tiller so there's really no issue there.

Even so, you will find that the boat maneuvers better using the rudder, particularly at low speeds. Someone pointed out that lots of little motor boats are steered by the outboard. To that I would say that most little motorboats handle like crap compared to sailboats. If you put the engine into neutral how much steerage do you have without the rudder? Next to none. If you are steering with the outboard you have to sit right in the stern. You can't stand up to get a better view ahead, you can't move forward in the cockpit.

I can't say I have ever seen someone using an outboard to steer their sailboat, and I have certainly never seen one underway without having the rudder in place. If you have clearance issues you need to correct that, but you shouldn't be fumbling around trying to install your rudder when you are at sea.

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Sailormon6

· #12 · 12 mo ago

I wouldn't remove the rudder while underway. You can steer the boat with the motor's tiller, but not with the accuracy that the rudder provides.

Based on your description, I'd suggest you move the motor mount so that the rudder and motor have a full range of motion independently of each other.

A rudder is wholly incapable of affecting the heading of a sailboat if it doesn't have steerageway. If you need to change the heading of a sailboat in that situation, you have to turn the outboard motor to direct its thrust in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn. Pushing the motor's tiller hard to starboard and giving it a brief shot of throttle will kick the stern to starboard.

Similarly, inboard powered sailboats with an inboard rudder are also not steered by the rudder alone. If you don't have steerageway, you turn the rudder hard to starboard and give the motor a shot of throttle. The prop, which is forward of the rudder, pushes a stream of water against the rudder, which pushes the boat's stern to the left. By doing so, you can rotate the boat 180 degrees, even though it has little or no steerageway. The rudder alone does not always steer the boat. Often it is the rudder in concert with the engine that steers the boat.

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TakeFive

· #13 · 12 mo ago

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I would recommend a hard link connecting the outboard to the rudder. Then you're steering both in sync with each other by simply moving your tiller (or wheel). I had one on my prior boat, a 25 footer with transom hung rudder and outboard. It allowed for much more precise maneuvering near docks at slow speeds. The removable ball sockets allowed removing the link prior to lifting the motor.

For the needed parts I purchased the Stearns Motor Link Steering Kit Stainless Steel G820, made for kicker motors for fishing boats. The parts worked great with some finessing. They also made #G819, a less expensive zinc/steel version. However, these have both become near impossible to find - they might have been discontinued. However, look at the pictures and you can probably find the needed parts.

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SchockT

· #14 · 12 mo ago

TakeFive said:
I would recommend a hard link connecting the outboard to the rudder. Then you're steering both in sync with each other by simply moving your tiller (or wheel). I had one on my prior boat, a 25 footer with transom hung rudder and outboard. It allowed for much more precise maneuvering near docks at slow speeds. The removable ball sockets allowed removing the link prior to lifting the motor.

For the needed parts I purchased the Stearns Motor Link Steering Kit Stainless Steel G820, made for kicker motors for fishing boats. The parts worked great with some finessing. They also made #G819, a less expensive zinc/steel version. However, these have both become near impossible to find - they might have been discontinued. However, look at the pictures and you can probably find the needed parts.

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That seems like overkill to me! I have sailed plenty of outboard powered boats and never found an issue with leaving the outboard alone and steering with the rudder. As long as the boat is moving even very slowly you will have steerage with the rudder. Why would you want to add all that friction to your helm and remove all feel?

It is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist!

TakeFive I assume that is a MacGregor in the pics? They are different creatures altogether!

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TakeFive

· #15 · 12 mo ago

SchockT said:
That seems like overkill to me! I have sailed plenty of outboard powered boats and never found an issue with leaving the outboard alone and steering with the rudder. As long as the boat is moving even very slowly you will have steerage with the rudder.

Maybe you haven't heard of an issue, but others have had issues. Some people have their outboard props take a chunk out of their rudder when one is turned and the other is left straight. In my case, I docked in currents that could be as fast as 4 knots. When your boat is moving slower than the current, it turns the opposite direction of what you expect. Sometimes I'd be docking at exactly the same speed as the current, and have no rudder control. After a few near catastrophes, I decided to engineer a solution. Pivoting the outboard's thrust with a hard link would make the steering totally predictable regardless of the boat's STW in a fast current.

SchockT said:
Why would you want to add all that friction to your helm and remove all feel?

Simple solution. When under sail, remove the hard link, tilt the outboard out of the water, and sail with no friction. I did that every time.

SchockT said:
It is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist!

I'm glad these problems never existed for you. But they existed for me, and perhaps for many others.

SchockT said:
TakeFive I assume that is a MacGregor in the pics? They are different creatures altogether!

Catalina. A real sailboat.

SchockT

· #16 · 12 mo ago

TakeFive said:
Maybe you haven't heard of an issue, but others have had issues. Some people have their outboard props take a chunk out of their rudder when one is turned and the other is left straight. In my case, I docked in currents that could be as fast as 4 knots. When your boat is moving slower than the current, it turns the opposite direction of what you expect. Sometimes I'd be docking at exactly the same speed as the current, and have no rudder control. After a few near catastrophes, I decided to engineer a solution. Pivoting the outboard's thrust with a hard link would make the steering totally predictable regardless of the boat's STW in a fast current.

Simple solution. When under sail, remove the hard link, tilt the outboard out of the water, and sail with no friction. I did that every time.

I'm glad these problems never existed for you. But they existed for me, and perhaps for many others.

Catalina. A real sailboat.

Ok, so you found a specific circumstance where linking the outboard to the rudder is beneficial. I still think that in most circumstances it is un necessary. I can't say that I have ever seen an outboard linked to a rudder like that except on MacGregors.

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jeremiahblatz

· #17 · 12 mo ago

I think all the corsair trimarans have an outboard/rudder linkage standard.

My sailing club's mooring field is in the Hudson river, and the wind and currents as you come into the field are very unpredictable. There are time where you either miss your mooring or you steer with the rudder and outboard at the same time. I really don't understand the claim that the boat will steer better at low speeds with the outboard centered and the rudder moving. With the right outboard mount you can pivot the engine through 90 degrees, allowing you to literally turn in place.

Centering the engine and just using the tiller definitely has advantages: you have a better body position to keep a lookout, you have a free hand, etc. However, there are absolutely situations where it is preferable to be able to steer with both. If you frequently encounter such situations, an outboard linkage may be worth it. If it's not frequent, then just learn to steer with both at the same time. And I can fully accept that for most folks, there's no reason to ever turn the outboard.

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