SailNet Community banner
1 - 20 of 228 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
UPDATE 1/6/09 - Please see page 16 of this thread for an updated cost figuring schedule with 3 seperate scenarios posted. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/50092-owning-boat-expensive-15.html

Thought I would post this here, it may help those looking to buy a boat think about all those other costs involved.

----------

Everyone who ever wanted to buy their first boat has gone through the same thought:

"I'm going to buy this $10,000- $30,000 boat, and take my friends and significant other out at least several weeks per summer."

You believe you will go out for several weeks.

But realistically, how many days will you, your SO, your friends, or THE WHOLE GANG be able to break away to go sailing? Is it a few weeks or a few weekends?

What about winter? Are you in a climate where you can even imagine sailing in anything less than peak summer weather?

What about maintenance? Slip fees? Insurance?

SEASONAL WEATHER AFFECTS THE NUMBER OF DAYS YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR BOAT

If you own your own boat, car, train, plane etc. you are faced with issues related to seasonal conditions. If you only envision balmy summer breezes and pleasant evenings, sailing or motoring along placid waters... remember a couple of things:

Unless you live in the tropics, the seasons will change, but still, the tropics have their own set of issues like hurricanes or tropical storms. Winter will come and with it a set of conditions that many times cause people to lose interest in "taking a trip in my boat this weekend. " If you are beyond 35º north or south of the equator, you may want to consider what has to happen to sailing vessels and power boats when October rolls around in the north or May, "down under", it may be time to put away the golf bats and put the "yacht" on the hard, where it may be less expensive, but not available to use.

Taking seasons into consideration along with job related time constraints and family duties, HOW MANY (wonderful/warm/sunny) DAYS A YEAR WILL YOU BE ABLE TO ENJOY YOUR FLOATING DREAMBOAT? 30? 60? ...I wonder!

DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION

Assign 30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat, 20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter. At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it.

FIGURING THE COSTS

Lets put the total cost of your sailing vessel or power boat down on paper.

A used, 25 to 30 foot, 10 to 20 yr old boat, bought at a realistic price to value, with good enough equipment (sails/engine/batteries/bottom paint/etc) to get by for a while, berthed at a normal marina will pencil out something like this, over a 5 yr ownership.

5 Yr Ownership

$20,000 PURCHASE PRICE

EXPENSES__________________________

- $4,000 first year depreciation

- $3,200 first year $300 per mo. slip rent + $200/yr liability insurance (possibly add electricity) Not including live aboard fees if you are planning to do that.

next 4 years

- $8,000 next 4 yrs depreciation/maintenance

- $12,800 next 4 yrs slip fees and insurance

__________________________________

$28,000 TOTAL EXPENSE

+ $20,000 ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE

__________________________________

$48,000 TOTAL to own this boat for 5 yrs.

That's approx. $9600/year if you don't sell it.

If you do resell it after 5 years for $14,500 resale value (private sale/no commission)

then $33,500 non-recovered expenses/depreciation divided by 5 yrs = $6700/year

*The numbers I use are based on my personal experience (I have owned dozens of power and sailing boats, ) and are also based on my observations of other boat owners. You may wish to challenge any of my numbers by up to 50% (I know that you know a guy...) but the costs, even at half of my forecast) are eye opening. Just think, what if "your guy" and I are both wrong and you buy a boat with unseen issues? WHAT IF THE NUMBERS ARE DOUBLE?

SOME ANALYSIS

I CAN FLY ALMOST ANYWHERE AND STEER A SAME SIZE OR BIGGER (BARE BOAT) CHARTER BOAT IN SOME PRETTY NICE PLACES (FOR A WEEK AT A TIME YEAR-ROUND) AT LEAST TWO, MAYBE THREE TIMES A YEAR. FOR THAT YEARLY AMOUNT. If I talk another person or couple into splitting the charter fee......maybe I can go more often or we can hire a bigger boat. Imagine the simplicity and convenience of it all. Chartering offers you the opportunity for year round fair weather adventure. You can pick your cruising ground, pick your season, enjoy, take some pictures, return home and plan your next nautical safari.

So remember next time you are having that dream... unless you can get some serious usage out of your sailboat, and can stomach the thousands of dollars it will take to own a sailboat yearly, maybe you don't need to own a sailboat after all!

----------

Anyone have any thoughts to add?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
801 Posts
So remember next time you are having that dream... unless you can get some serious usage out of your sailboat, and can stomach the thousands of dollars it will take to own a sailboat yearly, maybe you don't need to own a sailboat after all!
Yeah. Why the hell do any of you bother to dream, or do?

I don't get it either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
ill keep my boat...most of my money ive spent on wimin and boats ..the rest ive wasted...but realy all hobies can cost money& if u love what ur doin then continue on...life is short enjoy it while u can rayder
 

·
Telstar 28
Joined
·
993 Posts
Just curious, what's your point???

If you can't afford a boat...don't buy one...

BTW, your analysis is probably a bit off, since no used boat is going to depreciate from $20,000 to $16,000 in a year. Let's assume that the boat is a 30' LOA Benehuntalina. The boat would cost new, somewhere north of $90,000...and for it to be selling for $20,000 it's got to be at least six years old—since it has depreciated by over $70,000. I don't see a six-year old boat dropping $4,000 in value over a year...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yeah. Why the hell do any of you bother to dream, or do?

I don't get it either.
Its meant to provide some advice and insight to those who have a dream to do it, have been sitting at their desk dreaming it, but don't see or know about all of the other costs associated. I'm just sick of seeing people neglecting their boats, coming down to the dock twice a year, trying to get their wife to come down but since they've been neglecting their boats they spend all their time trying to get the thing to run and get her clean, in the meantime throwing away money on slip fees and insurance and after a couple of years selling their boat at a loss after throwing away a few G's.

I think if you go into it with a different mindset you might be able to get some some real use out of your boat in the first couple of years and settle into a nice life of occasional or regular boating!

I've seen enough boat abuse to last for a lifetime, I'd rather dreamers simply look at it a little more practically before blowing tens of thousands on a boat only to find out they're not ready.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,979 Posts
Boat depreciation averages, 6 percent year one, 3 percent per year after for 5 years, then it depends on maintenance and market, it's not a straight line.

A well maintained boat, bought cheap and fixed, doesn't depreciate at all.

Gemini's bought new in the 80's sell for more than the original price today.
Go figure :)

That per BoatUS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Boat depreciation averages, 6 percent year one, 3 percent per year after for 5 years, then it depends on maintenance and market, it's not a straight line.

A well maintained boat, bought cheap and fixed, doesn't depreciate at all.

Gemini's bought new in the 80's sell for more than the original price today.
Go figure :)

That per BoatUS.
Thank you for this. As I said, I've based my numbers on what I've seen.

I think you might be misunderstanding, the depreciation costs also assume a certain amount of maintenance/gas/diesel/other expenses to make up the difference.

In other words, if you don't spend it on maintenance, you will see it in depreciation, due to neglect. If you think a 20k boat with no maintence doesn't depreciate to 14k, it certainly does.

I just saw this in a 1970 Coronado I just bought for very little due to the fact that the guy bought it, his wife and boy decided not to continue to go sailing with him, he TOTALLY neglected his boat (Palmer engine now no-operational, the thing was filthy inside in and out), so I bought it for VERY undermarket.

On the flip side, there are a number of classic boats which actually sell for more than their original sales prices, like the Northwest 21 which I designed.
 

·
Mud Hen #69, Mad Hatter
Joined
·
415 Posts
I don't smoke, use drugs or buy drinks at a bar so I figure I save enough to afford the boat. :-D

Buy used. Pay cash. Maintain it yourself.

Where do you get that a 20 year old boat depreciates $4,000 per year? Are you going to sink it after five years or try and sell it? A 20 year old boat has ZERO book value, anyway (A new vehicle has a five to seven year book life - not sure about boats). But even so. If you buy it for $20K today and take care or it in 20 years it may be worth $40K at the cost of capital in 2028. So it appreciates. Certainly should hold its own.
 

·
Ignoring Trolls in 2009
Joined
·
453 Posts
Captain,

I'd go back to accounting class.
If you expense your depreciation, you cannot compare the sale price to the original asset price plus the depreciation expense. The way you are demonstrating the math, the depreciation is being counted twice.
If you are going to depreciate 12k off the asset (way too high, but for the sake of argument I'll give it to you). You would then have to compare your theoretical sale price of $14500 to the depreciated value of 8k. So you actually demonstrate a net $6500 gain on the sale.
You are showing an estimated expense (slip/insurance) of 16K for a net loss of $9500 over 5 years. That works out to a annual cost of $1900. If you can fly and charter a boat 2-3 weeks a year for $1900 I want to meet your travel agent.
Of course, this doesn't take into account tax advantages if you establish an LLC, or can document enough nights on the boat to list it as a second home.

Michael
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Just curious, what's your point???

If you can't afford a boat...don't buy one...

BTW, your analysis is probably a bit off, since no used boat is going to depreciate from $20,000 to $16,000 in a year. Let's assume that the boat is a 30' LOA Benehuntalina. The boat would cost new, somewhere north of $90,000...and for it to be selling for $20,000 it's got to be at least six years old—since it has depreciated by over $70,000. I don't see a six-year old boat dropping $4,000 in value over a year...
Hey, I want to know more about that Telstar in your sig!

Regarding your post...

I think I said plainly what my point was above. I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream and have it go upside down quickly, like I see all the time in SoCal marinas. I've seen it for decades... its always the same story: they don't understand the costs or the commitment and they bail within a year or two, especially when the wife starts complaining about her mall money going to waste on their "mistress".

The numbers are approximate but close to real I think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I don't smoke, use drugs or buy drinks at a bar so I figure I save enough to afford the boat. :-D

Buy used. Pay cash. Maintain it yourself.
This is GREAT! You are the guy who has the commitment and appreciation (as do the other veterans above obviously) to afford the boat, and the right perspective. Do you mind if I quote you on my blog?

Where do you get that a 20 year old boat depreciates $4,000 per year?
I didn't say it depreciates that much per year. I said it depreciates that much over the first year without upgrades or maintenance.

Are you going to sink it after five years or try and sell it?
I don't quite understand that question. The point is based on keeping it for 5 years regardless of what you do with it. I've seen people die with neglected boats to their name... how much did they recoup? My Rawson was that way. It sat in Dana Point harbor for 20+ years, bottom cleaned and slip paid until the guy passed away and the estate gave it to the Sea Scouts. I don't even want to do the numbers on that one.

But even so. If you buy it for $20K today and take care or it in 20 years it may be worth $40K at the cost of capital in 2028. So it appreciates. Certainly should hold its own.
My Rawson, depending on its Geographic Location is worth between 17.5k to 30k. Many boats have EXCELLENT resale value depending on their heritage, reputation, and how much of a coveted boat it is. I paid 2100 for that boat the way it sat.

But it only appreciates, in rare scenarios, that much with maintence, upgrades, and care. You'll spend $20k over that period of time just to maintain and replace components, even if it just sits at the dock most of the time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
801 Posts
Its meant to provide some advice and insight to those who have a dream to do it, have been sitting at their desk dreaming it, but don't see or know about all of the other costs associated. I'm just sick of seeing people neglecting their boats, coming down to the dock twice a year, trying to get their wife to come down but since they've been neglecting their boats they spend all their time trying to get the thing to run and get her clean, in the meantime throwing away money on slip fees and insurance and after a couple of years selling their boat at a loss after throwing away a few G's.

I think if you go into it with a different mindset you might be able to get some some real use out of your boat in the first couple of years and settle into a nice life of occasional or regular boating!

I've seen enough boat abuse to last for a lifetime, I'd rather dreamers simply look at it a little more practically before blowing tens of thousands on a boat only to find out they're not ready.
Look Cap'n - No offense meant here, but, I've got several rather expensive hobbies. Amateur radio, collecting guns, archery, computers (many types and sorts in my basement), making beer, making mead to name just a few of them.

I've been more of a "hobby collector" over the years than anything else. I get going on something, I get very GOOD at it and add it to my personal resume of "things I can do".

If I took that same tack as you just did in your article, by telling folks that "Ham radio can cost you thousands and thousands of dollars, so remember, a cell phone is probably cheaper" it would turn people OFF the hobby in the first place.

My remark was certainly sarcastic because my wife and I are just getting started in sailing and to hear some of the folks here complain constantly about the "cost of sailing" is quite a turn off.

But - like Amateur Radio (where equipment can cost you as much as a small boat - in fact there are radio systems out there running 13k and more - very expensive for a radio not used under military specifications, the MORE part is what bugs me... but I digress) so buying a very expensive boat in my opinion is an option some people have.

I do not.

I also don't have the experience yet to tell someone the pros and cons about any particular boat thus I wouldn't do that.

BUT, I DO have some things going for me that will help to defray costs of maintenance on a boat over the course of several years.

Those things are - I'm damned good with tools, woodworking, metal working, plumbing, electrical systems, I am a 40 year plus radio guy (I have designed systems, built systems, fixed systems, installed systems) and I have the most frugal wife in the world who helps us maintain a budget. The two of us have managed many people, many systems, raised a large family, raised grandchildren and we both are reasonably intelligent people.

Given that information the whole premise of your article is "You really ought not get started sailing IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD it".

I've seen that sentiment echoed here time and again by various people.

I personally see that as a very bigoted response from people I believe don't want to see someone "without money" getting involved in a "rich man's sport".

That's just how I saw your article - and to some extent how I view many of the posters here with a very, very biased point of view.

I have no intention of listening to any of you.

I'll do what I can do with what I have, and I will do it better than most because I have to learn to do things on my own (as I have all my life) and I will do it better because I promise I won't be spending as much as everyone else (I can do MOST of my own repairs, refits, and so forth).

I believe you certainly meant well - and perhaps I missed the point of your whole message here (but, I don't think so from what you said in the next message directed at me).

When it comes down to the statement you made above... "I'm just sick of seeing people neglect their boats" - I think ALL of us would WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you.

I don't get the idea why someone buys one, parks it in a slip and visits it twice a year (I can see why *I* might do that, in preparation for moving TO the boat - I LIVE in Colorado and NOT on the coast and moving right this minute is simply out of the question.....)

So - perhaps you could cut those folks some slack. Your personal point of view is certainly your opinion - and we all have those, but HONESTLY, do YOU take care of your boat? I'm sure you do. Good for you!

Personally I FULLY intend to get plenty of use out of any boat I own. I just purchased an old boat to learn in. I'm leaving for classes in April (to California). Once done there, we put our boat in the water and will be in it every weekend this spring and summer to practice.

Over the course of the next two years our plans are already pretty much set on how much sailing we need to get in, where we need to go and how we're going to accomplish that.

In three years we start looking in earnest for our boat - the one we will be cruising in.

And I promise you folks, if we get that far, we will be cruising from place to place, not sitting at a slip for months at a time.

I've learned a lot from this site already. Some of it is how NOT to do things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cope44

·
Registered
Joined
·
801 Posts
I just saw this in a 1970 Coronado I just bought for very little due to the fact that the guy bought it, his wife and boy decided not to continue to go sailing with him, he TOTALLY neglected his boat (Palmer engine now no-operational, the thing was filthy inside in and out), so I bought it for VERY undermarket.
I would say THIS particular aspect is a GOOD thing - for me. Since I am currently looking for a boat that will suit our needs. Thus, if I can find something that needs cleaning and work that I can do myself on, and get it for "under market" but still have a boat that is usable for us, then this is a veyr good thing.

The neglect one person heaps upon an object can always be a benefit for someone else later. Certainly, the total destruction of a good boat is a bad thing.

But at the same time a person who can not take the time, and won't take the time to care for his boat should give it up to someone who can.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,172 Posts
If you measure everything in terms of dollars, you're missing the point to life!
Everybody has a different perspective on boat ownership. For me, it's alot cheaper than my ham radio hobby where I can easily spend $12,000 on one radio which hardly ever gets used. So what? I like it!

For many, a big part of boat ownership is the analog to a second home on the ocean. A boat is usually much cheaper. Additionally, a boat doesn't always have to be at sea to be enjoyed - we have spend many enjoyable weekends at the marina without ever doing out.

If I were to calculate how much it costs me to play golf the few times a year I do, I'd shoot myself for stupidity - that's not the point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
ill keep my boat...most of my money ive spent on wimin and boats ..the rest ive wasted...but realy all hobies can cost money& if u love what ur doin then continue on...life is short enjoy it while u can rayder
I totally agree.

Boat depreciation averages, 6 percent year one, 3 percent per year after for 5 years, then it depends on maintenance and market, it's not a straight line.

A well maintained boat, bought cheap and fixed, doesn't depreciate at all.

Gemini's bought new in the 80's sell for more than the original price today.
Go figure :)

That per BoatUS.
"Depreciation. After the first season on the water new powerboats depreciate an average of around 10% and new sailboats about 5%. Used boats, however, may hold steady, or even increase, in value with a minimal amount of work or equipment improvements." boatusDOTCOM/guidenew/b_finding.asp

That's all I can find, do you have another link? Regarding that quote, thats pretty much what I've said. If you spend the money on upgrades and maintenance, you may see it in the resale price, but likely not near how much you've spent on expenses. Otherwise, you'll see it in depreciation. Most boats find themselves somewhere in the middle.

They say minimal... how is that defined? Rails? Bottom Cleaning? Zincs? Topside cleaning? Hank replacements or other sail issues? Engine issues? Battery Issues? What exactly is minimal maintenance and how much does it cost? I know if I leave my boat a few months the rails, bottom, zincs, etc all need maintenance. Every few years I have to replace my batteries. The sailmaker had to repair a hank I blew out. It all adds up.

Thats the part that people who haven't bought a boat don't know about, and thats why I wrote the article and thats why I started my blog... to help people understand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
801 Posts
I think I said plainly what my point was above. I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream and have it go upside down quickly, like I see all the time in SoCal marinas. I've seen it for decades... its always the same story: they don't understand the costs or the commitment and they bail within a year or two, especially when the wife starts complaining about her mall money going to waste on their "mistress".
My wife is my partner. My wife is the one that started the idea of going cruising, rather than "quiting to a little house on the prairie - which, by the way, given the fact we have probably 60 countries visited between us, is something I TOO want to do (and continue to do).

I get your point. Let me help to rephrase it here...

"I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream" to prepare themselves (meaning to HAVE A LOT OF MONEY) before they commit to their dream (to wishy washy) and have it go upside down quickly.

In other words, if you can't commit a couple million, you ought to stay home. That way YOU, Cap'n, do not have to observe other humans in their natural habitat and you have the sea to yourself.

At least, Sir, so it seems to me.

Dreamers are dreamers - and many times they MAKE their dreams HAPPEN. They do it however they have to do it.

They don't get them accomplished listening to people telling them to stay home and not try something new.

Sorry, dude, it doesn't work that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
801 Posts
If you measure everything in terms of dollars, you're missing the point to life!

Everybody has a different perspective on boat ownership. For me, it's alot cheaper than my ham radio hobby where I can easily spend $12,000 on one radio which hardly ever gets used. So what? I like it!
K1VSK de N0NJY 73 & tnx (for the verification....)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,647 Posts
Yep, no doubt about it. Sure is. So whats the point?

That your a charter Captain and want people to charter from you vrs. buying? This sounds to me like an advertisement for the chartering industry and nothinhg more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
Yes they are expensive!

Hey, I want to know more about that Telstar in your sig!

Regarding your post...

I think I said plainly what my point was above. I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream and have it go upside down quickly, like I see all the time in SoCal marinas. I've seen it for decades... its always the same story: they don't understand the costs or the commitment and they bail within a year or two, especially when the wife starts complaining about her mall money going to waste on their "mistress".
The numbers are approximate but close to real I think.
Wow! sure glad my wife shares my passion!
I was a dreamer, for many years a dreamer, finally tired of being spectators my wife and I went to a boat show. She saw her dream boat and after some thought I shared her dream even though I had a different boat in mind. It took us three years to get it together to aquire the boat and now we have done six summers with it and looking forward to many more.
Yes we are governed by seasons 49 degrees north but we are in the PNW and it is paradise in the summer. Our boat is trailerable (MacGregor 26M) so slip fees have been transient but we are contemplating annual. We don't drink, smoke, gamble or do drugs or play golf or have kids, we just have our boat and ourselves and the islands to explore. We are getting on in our years and we can't take our money with us so we are enjoying the fruits of our labor while we still can. I don't regret one penny I spent on our boat and I intend to spend a lot more on it, just for the fun of it!
 
1 - 20 of 228 Posts
Top