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Discussion Starter #1
Am not planning to trade up. Yet. Or maybe, ever. My main reason, if I did, would be to get a boat that is equipped for blue water cruising. And, since I still need to actually learn to sail, specifically, single handed sailing, this proposition is some distance in the future.

That said, I am curious what people do when they go from a smaller boat to a larger one, wrt, for example, slips? Specifically, those who live on their boats? Do you end up having to pay two slip fees until the older boat sells? With this market, I know owners who've had their boats up for sale for 2 years. I have seen some who go with a broker, who then puts the boat in their own slips, but if/when I trade up, I'm pretty sure that my boat is to small for a broker to be interested.

All feed back is welcomed/appreciated.
 

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Let's see...

Catalina 250, then traded up to 320, then traded up to 380, then traded up to 400.... now looking for my next baby, but gave up because Nordhavn won't take my C400 on trade!!! What't the matter with them!? HEHE!

Hey, listen, trading up is great. I always bought new too. My salesman loves me. He told me so. Many times. I even get Christmas cards (new Catalina 445 flyer attached inside).

My suggestion, don't ever get the right boat the first time. You will lose a good friend. You must keep trading up.

Brian
 

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I'm all about trading up, in fact every boat purchase I've made yet has been aimed at going either newer or larger, but I strongly recommend against upgrading until your current boat has sold.

I bought my first 'large' sailboat while waiting for my 28' powerboat to sell, and carried two slips, two insurance policies, etc until the power boat sold. I will never put myself in that position again. I lucked out, and the power boat sold after a reasonable amount of time on the market for my asking price (this was in 2005- pre economic meltdown), BUT owning two boats is a huge liability, and I was just one equipment breakage on either boat away from financial disaster. Any time the thought of a newer/larger boat began to get traction since that experience, I listed my boat for sale and began seriously shopping/contacting brokers only after it was under contract.

It doesn't cost anything to have a boat listed, and you can still sail it/enjoy it while its on the market. If fact, I find your boat is better off if you continue to use and maintain it while it is on the market. So many people wait until they are done using the boat to list them and they end up stagnating on the market decaying from non-use. So far that method has worked out well for me.


p.s. Craigslist or sailboatlistings.com for smaller boats. Both are free, and I've had great luck with both.
 

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Never been in the 'always buy new' set.. but until the last change did go up in size. The 'downsize' attempt was much more difficult. Going from 28 to 40 feet 20 years ago was awesome.. awe-inspiring maybe even... Trying to go back to 30 feet after that proved impossible, we ended up (happy) with 35 feet.

Depending on the moorage market situation moving up can be a real challenge on that front.

What I REALLY RECOMMEND AGAINST is buying one before selling the first. Owning two boats is a pain, costly and invariably the one for sale falls into neglect and disuse and therefore 'shows' poorly. BTDT, and don't plan to do it again. Occasionally a 'smokin' deal' shows up to tempt you, though,......
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Yeah, I was thinking, sell first, then buy. My concern is being caught between boats, with no boat. Esp since I live on mine. I def don't want to get into another boat out of desperation. So, timing and availability would be key. Just not sure how I would juggle something like that...
 

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I took a chance and bought my cruising dream boat before I had sold my current boat. I got lucky- It sold a month later!
Only regret is now I am completely overwhelmed with my "new" boat. So many systems and stuff breaking down while I am trying to get a feel for the boat-as compared to my Hunter 36 that was so simple and new. Oh well. Learning curve is very steep.
 

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Good thread to see, especially with people really recommending selling your current boat first. I'm on a Pearson 323 which is an amazing boat for me for the next several years, but wouldn't mind trading up to a Tayana 37 for blue water cruising once I've done the Bahamas a couple times. My current boat is perfect for that area.

My main worry with selling the current boat first would be that I'm living aboard it and would worry that it might have that messy lived in state. But I guess you can always just be real disciplined about keeping it clean for showing and move a lot of your clutter out.

Also there'd be some things like my kayak, kayak racks and wifi system I'd want to take with me since I'll want them on the new boat and the resale value on them is nil.

What I'm finding really hard is keeping from upgrading my current boat more. Trying to balance new systems/comfort items for the current boat(I'll be in for several years yet) vs knowing that every dollar sunk into her won't be a dollar out on the sale is a tricky balance.
 

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I've had my Starwind 27 for three years now. Reasons I'm looking at trading up:
- I want five or six people to be able to sit in the cockpit without being cramped and knocking knees with each other, climb over each other to work the lines, etc.
- The galley sink is recessed under the cockpit, and you literally have your face pressed against the cabin wall when you're trying to wash dishes.
- I want a built-in AC system, so I can stop carrying a window unit on and off the boat two or three times every weekend.
- I want some storage and bigger gas and water tanks.

The pitfalls to these things?

MONEY!

Higher slip fees.
Higher maintenance costs.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
What I'm finding really hard is keeping from upgrading my current boat more. Trying to balance new systems/comfort items for the current boat(I'll be in for several years yet) vs knowing that every dollar sunk into her won't be a dollar out on the sale is a tricky balance.
This is exactly my dilemma. I am trying to avoid spending a whole lot on upgrades, in that I do suspect I'll want to trade up in the next couple of years. At the same point in time, I am considering the tradeoffs.

For example, larger boat equals higher cost.

Primarily due to more equipment to maintain (i.e., inboard motor, head, etc). While my boat is (obviously) not maintenance free, it is extremely low maintenance. If my outboard motor goes, I replace that for a couple thousand, whereas if I had to replace an inboard, that would run in the ten to twenty thousand range. Moreover, besides higher bottom cleaning costs, there's cost of replacing zincs, packing the shaft, keeping the bilge as "oil and fume free" as possible as well as additional safety measures such as CO2 detectors, etc. Then, there's the head and dealing with pump-outs. Which would mean motoring over to the pump out station or hiring someone to pump her out at her slip. There is also maintaining and managing whatever else the boat is equipped with. And of course, the question of whether I'd actually be able to single hand a 30 footer. Which would, of course, require the running rigging to be run aft, auto helm, that sort of thing.

While the above are neither deal breakers or exhaustive, imo, they inform the sort of increased budget I would want to prepare for. Or, for that matter, whether I would want that increased budget. As it is now, while I try to live frugally, I also live quite comfortably.

There is also the bit wrt what I might want, out the gate, so to speak. For example, roller furling, single handed running rigging, dodger, fridge, head, etc. My guess is, the closer to my specifications, the higher the asking value. Otoh, in today's boat market, boats are still going for almost dirt cheap.

Btw, wrt slip fees. They'd be the same, as I'm already in a 32' slip, and do not plan to go over 30'. So, that's really a non-issue for me.
 

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This is exactly my dilemma. I am trying to avoid spending a whole lot on upgrades, in that I do suspect I'll want to trade up in the next couple of years.
I get your point about upgrades. In your position I'd upgrade items that make your sailing and living on the boat more comfortable/easier/enjoyable now. It's your home. Anything can happen in a few years and you may decide on a different path altogether. Upgrades won't increase the value of the boat when you decide to sell, but as a buyer, it says to me that you took care of the boat and didn't neglect it. I'd choose that boat over one with absolutely no improvements since it was built.

For example, larger boat equals higher cost.

Primarily due to more equipment to maintain (i.e., inboard motor, head, etc). While my boat is (obviously) not maintenance free, it is extremely low maintenance. If my outboard motor goes, I replace that for a couple thousand, whereas if I had to replace an inboard, that would run in the ten to twenty thousand range. Moreover, besides higher bottom cleaning costs, there's cost of replacing zincs, packing the shaft, keeping the bilge as "oil and fume free" as possible as well as additional safety measures such as CO2 detectors, etc. Then, there's the head and dealing with pump-outs. Which would mean motoring over to the pump out station or hiring someone to pump her out at her slip.
Learn how to DIY. Diesel repair and head repair are probably not beyond your capabilities (if I am reading you correctly from hanging out in the chat). That'll save you money. If you list all of the maintenance items that a boat requires, probably 90% can be DIY if you lean that way.

As for pump out, at least in the Chesapeake the cost is minimal ($5/per, usually free if you fill up with fuel at the same time) and unless you're regularly creating enough poop to sink the boat, it'll barely be a smudge on your budget spreadsheet.
 

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Trading up has been a conundrum for SWMBO and I. We have kicked the fenders on a number of boats that seem perfect on paper, until one actually climbs aboard. Then we realize just how good we have it on our ridiculously pompous and over-equipped 23' boat.
We also really like our slip on our current dock, and going significantly bigger LOA-wise would necessitate moving docks. Our first solution was to buy a second boat to use as a "guest boat." It works, but not real practical. So, our solution is to go WIDER. A catamaran build is now underway. Sorta.
 

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Single handling a 30ft wouldn't be a problem at all. I'm on a 32ft boat and she's a breeze to manage. Rolling furling helps, as does self tailing winches. Don't worry on that side of the issue. You may fret a bit over things at first but in no time she'll start to feel like something you can pretty easily man handle around.

Engine maintenance will go up. My current boat has a bear of an engine to get access to. But get something with good engine access and you should be able to do things yourself. CO2 detector is $10 at Walmart.

Rest of the stuff should be pretty similar to your 27ft boat. Winches a little larger, lines a little thicker, sails a little larger, but not terribly different. And if you plan on staying that size for the long term then you can really invest on good long term customization.

My current 32ft boat feels pretty spacious for me. Lots of storage and no complaints there. She's real comfortable. I just wanted to go to 37ft for a larger galley(I'm a cooking fiend) and a sort of 2nd mini cabin area for family staying over with me. I'm hoping that would be my final upgrade.
 

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....A catamaran build is now underway. Sorta.
Do tell!! Details?:cool:

We've owned this past boat for nearly 8 years, continually improving things. We moved down from 40 feet, and don't wish to go bigger again, but are looking for newer, more cockpit space and better galley arrangements.

Though we've listed on Craigslist and are doing some fender kicking we won't do the '2 boat program'. We had a great outing this past weekend and I'm very torn about selling her at all, truth be told. I suppose that's a good place to be.. if it doesn't sell we're not really unhappy, if she does then maybe we'll get some of our wishlist items.

And then there's the 'buyers market' situation which doesn't really do one any good if you're on both sides of the transactions...
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I get your point about upgrades. In your position I'd upgrade items that make your sailing and living on the boat more comfortable/easier/enjoyable now. It's your home. Anything can happen in a few years and you may decide on a different path altogether. Upgrades won't increase the value of the boat when you decide to sell, but as a buyer, it says to me that you took care of the boat and didn't neglect it. I'd choose that boat over one with absolutely no improvements since it was built.
This is a very good point. I've been scouting out what it would take to recover the existing cushions. The foam is good but the covers are fugly and worn. And also, getting a decent set of vberth cushions. I contacted catalina and they don't do covers anymore. A new set run in the neighborhood of $3K. I did get the name of a woman who does custom cushions. Even comes out to the boat to measure, etc. Will be talking with her later this week. As for other things. You know, important sailing stuff. Have received opinions from four sailors and they all say my standing and running rigging is fine. And yes, if I did trade up, I could probably work on the engine. I used to rebuild old VW bug engines as a past time back in the day. ;-p

Our first solution was to buy a second boat to use as a "guest boat."
This. Actually, I met a couple who advised getting a zodiac or similar for puttering around the estuary. They said they use theirs to go over to Jack London square as well as hitting various yacht club events along the estuary. Another thing I noticed. People use their dinghies, as opposed to footing it on the docks, to visit each other. I've seen situations where a couple will be sitting on the back of their boat, with 3 or 4 dinghies parked around them, visiting, singing, and pretty much having a great time. It's a rather interesting social phenomenon, imo. Anyway, that couple said a dinghy is a must have for short trips to local establishments. I have also toyed with the idea of getting a sailing dinghy. There are a few (RS, open bic, sunfish, that sort of thing) that look quite tempting.

Single handling a 30ft wouldn't be a problem at all. I'm on a 32ft boat and she's a breeze to manage. Rolling furling helps, as does self tailing winches. Don't worry on that side of the issue. You may fret a bit over things at first but in no time she'll start to feel like something you can pretty easily man handle around.
Yeah, my worry comes more from the fact that I really need to learn how to sail first. At which point, I'll have a better idea of what I might want should I decide to trade up.

The idea of trading up, is of course, all pie in the sky, way future. At this time, my setup is comfy. In fact, I just picked up an ENO hammock for lazy in the sun reading days. :)
 

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This. Actually, I met a couple who advised getting a zodiac or similar for puttering around the estuary. They said they use theirs to go over to Jack London square as well as hitting various yacht club events along the estuary. Another thing I noticed. People use their dinghies, as opposed to footing it on the docks, to visit each other. I've seen situations where a couple will be sitting on the back of their boat, with 3 or 4 dinghies parked around them, visiting, singing, and pretty much having a great time. It's a rather interesting social phenomenon, imo. Anyway, that couple said a dinghy is a must have for short trips to local establishments. I have also toyed with the idea of getting a sailing dinghy. There are a few (RS, open bic, sunfish, that sort of thing) that look quite tempting.
Eer...sorta.
This is our guest boat;


Our water-getter/beer-runner/OB test bed/ general marina visit buggy is this:
Quack:


Or, if we're feeling athletic, "Chirp":
 

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Then there's 'trading different'. There are days when I'd love sailing (specifically racing) to be more physical/kinetic/faster. An F18 cat would be a pile of fun.
 

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A new set run in the neighborhood of $3K.
If the foam is good for $700 you could buy a nice sailrite machine and teach yourself to sew. Just cut the stitching on the old cushions and use the material from that as a template to make new ones.

Then when you trade up you can take the sailrite with you.

This is on my summer project list. I need new curtains and some monitor dodger/bimini work and storage bags. Just cheaper to do it myself and take the skills and machine with me as I move on.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If the foam is good for $700 you could buy a nice sailrite machine and teach yourself to sew. Just cut the stitching on the old cushions and use the material from that as a template to make new ones.

Then when you trade up you can take the sailrite with you.

This is on my summer project list. I need new curtains and some monitor dodger/bimini work and storage bags. Just cheaper to do it myself and take the skills and machine with me as I move on.
This is a good point. I learned to sew as a teen and even made my spending money designing my own patterns and sewing wedding gowns, etc, so sewing would not be an issue. Another possibility, outside of buying the machine, is that I have a friend who owns a canvas shop and has offered the use of his equipment and wholesale price on materials. I was thinking it would be a pain to haul the cushions over there, since I rely upon public transit. But, duh! I just need to remove he covers and take those.
 

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Shadow, I think we are in the same marina. You have quite a dilemma, moving “up” to even a C30 would be a vast improvement in livability. For me, the 27 is too much like car camping to do on the long term (Mrs. B thinks our 34 is “RV Camping”). Your 27 is a little “vintage” and I don’t think that you will get the biggest bang for the buck when doing upgrades (The outboard version isn’t the most desirable here on the Bay.) I don’t think that you will recover the cost of the cushions in a resale. If you are on a budget, keep the upgrades to a minimum and with the thought of transferring them over to the big boat.
 
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