[MarkofSeaLife]

I raced a Swan 65 across the Atlantic a few years ago. Sturdily built boat. Bilt like a brick outhouse.

But i would hate it for cruising! Hard, harsh, no galley but a commercial kitchen, no softness, no privacy (pilot berths in the saloon) no wall coverings just wooden slats... A total mans racing boat and a hideuos cruising boat for a female.

I would much prefer the MUCH cheaper Beneteau 54 or the Jeaneay 57 than a Swan 65.

 

[smackdaddy]

Brad - I was the one that started that thread PCP linked to in the second post.

Bottom line, virtually any production boat will take you virtually anywhere you want to go in the world if it's in good shape and you don't get yourself into crazy weather.

I'd say this argument was definitively put to bed (at least in my mind) by this guy who took a Hunter 49 around Cape Horn in an F-11 storm:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequitur/

'Nuff said.

 

[JonEisberg]

I'd say this argument was definitively put to bed (at least in my mind) by this guy who took a Hunter 49 around Cape Horn in an F-11 storm:

Sequitur

'Nuff said.

It might have been, if Michael had ACTUALLY taken Sequitur "around" the Horn in a F-11 storm... (grin)

Not to disparage Michael's accomplishments with that boat in any way, they were VERY impressive, no doubt... But, simply for the sake of accuracy, that's not really what he did....

 

[rockDAWG]

Sorry, but such blanket assertions are simply meaningless... To suggest that a Valiant "cannot compare" with a Beneteau because the latter is still in business, is absurd...

All things being equal, I'll take a stick built boat over one with a liner/pan construction, or conventional shaft propulsion over a saildrive, every time... Many of these features seen on newer production boats today, are largely a result of the drive to streamline the production process, make the build more economical, more than necessarily being an advancement in design, or construction...

I recently finished up the coastal delivery of a popular modern production boat... The deck and cockpit ergonomics were so poor as to be, IMO, downright dangerous in anything other than moderate conditions, in protected waters... Leaving the cockpit on that boat, offshore at night in dirty weather, no way... Again, to suggest that an "old blue water" would not be much safer than a modern production boat designed from the inside out in that regard, is simply nonsense...

Having said all that, I'm sure there are many production boats out there today that will suit the OP for his intended purposes, just fine...

Valiant is nice and pretty boat in her time. I have looked at two of them in the past, and I am sure I will sail her in the future to gain some hand on experience. I did not realize they were out of business. If they were still in production, I will not invest on them as an investor.

I found the old boats have no ergonomic what so ever. I always have stiff neck after sailing an old boat. Many like old boats, because they have small cockpit. I don't like old boat because the cockpit small and the sailing position sucks.

While sitting at the marina or at the anchorage, I cannot make an old boat cockpit bigger. For more recent boat, the wide stern is comfortable, erogom-nically design, it is far more comfortable to sail. When comes to sailing in dirty weather, one can easily rig up a few items in the cockpit to make it safe. In fact I am in the designing phase on these items to limit the crew moving during the storm. It is not so difficult at all.

I agree with you that some of the popular modern production boat have very few poor implementation. Obviously, all boat are not created equal either in the modern time or in the 80's. SOme of these poor installation are impossible of correct and costly to redo.

For example, the new Jeanneau DS. THey raised the cockpit deck so high so they can have more room below. But somehow that they forgot to raise the stanchion height. The lifeline is basically useless in rough weather.

Again, to suggest that an "old blue water" would not be much safer than a modern production boat designed from the inside out in that regard, is simply nonsense...

Then it is needless to say, a new modern boat is not as safe an old blue water boat is just nonsense as well.

In the end we all want the same thing, but we have different ways to reach our objectives. Whose is right or wrong, who cares except our family.

 

[JonEisberg]

When comes to sailing in dirty weather, one can easily rig up a few items in the cockpit to make it safe. In fact I am in the designing phase on these items to limit the crew moving during the storm. It is not so difficult at all.

Running lines aft to "ensure" you'll never have to go forward in heavy weather, huh? Good luck with that...

As one who believes the first rule of sailing is "Don't fall off the boat", a safe, well designed deck and cockpit are vitally important to me, one of the most important characteristics in any boat, IMO... it's extraordinary, how rare that is among a large sampling of today's production boats... I've developed a knack for moving about a boat over the years, and doubt I'm very "klutzy", in that regard... However, on the boat I mentioned, twice during that delivery I came very close to slipping or tripping due to a poor design, or inadequate/poorly placed nonskid, etc...

Both times, that occurred when the boat was tied to the dock...

 

[blt2ski]

John,

Good or bad deck design can be on high or low end boats. While CD likes to talk about catalina in a good way, I know of two locally that I would NOT want. One is a C34 with the halyard lines trying to go thru, yes go thru the built in fiberglass risers for the cabin top mainsheet traveler. Obviously it will not go thru so it goes around it rubbing.

This is probably the same issue with another poster that sold his third Catalina, and went with a CS36 over his preferred choice of a C36. Both the C30, 34, and 36 had deck organizers placed such that the lines from the mast did not thread easily to the cabin top.

This is not to say Catalina's do not have positives. I personally believe they do. Even still, there are problems. I could probably find the same issue with an Oyster or Swan If I really had to look. My Jeanneau has some issues too. But like all things great and small, one needs to fix or correct them if one is going to be on them a lot.

Valients have positives about them......but still are built to older school techniques if one will, hense why they probably went out of biz, just as another did recently with good style boats for the era they were designed in.

At the end of the day, there is NOT a perfect boat! Even a 1-2 million dollar boat will have issues. Having been in the home building industry for 30 yrs, yeah bat building is different, yet the same, in that many builders build to a price point. the framing and structure part is the same! Just how much bling and type you put on it!

As this thread starts to go in the same direction that smackies original thread did! At the end of the day, does the boat meat your expectations of what you want it to do. Both looks, can you get around, live in it, like the looks etc.

Marty

 

[smackdaddy]

It might have been, if Michael had ACTUALLY taken Sequitur "around" the Horn in a F-11 storm... (grin)

Not to disparage Michael's accomplishments with that boat in any way, they were VERY impressive, no doubt... But, simply for the sake of accuracy, that's not really what he did....

Man you're kind of picky dude. If I remember correctly, he did "round" the Horn west-to-east in better weather after popping out of the Beagle, then ducked into one of the Tierra del Fuego channels on the eastern side.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener.../forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/83500-sequitur-rounds-cape-horn.html

After some recuperation, they popped back out to continue east, and got caught, in F-10/11 conditions, south of Isla de los Estados.

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequitur/?xjMsgID=210007

 

[blt2ski]

Smack,

Either way you look at it, getting around the horn i one piece is a good thing. I also know of a 34' mid 80s Jeanneau that did a non stop around the horns also! I do feel Jeanneau builds a better boat than Hunter, but reality is, probably not by much. Kinda of a Chebby vs buick or olds difference. Or maybe a kia vs chebby or some such thing.

marty

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

Jeanneau builds a better boat than Hunter, but reality is, probably not by much.
marty

I would say by a lot.
Hunter is in Bankruptcy and Jeanneau is one of the top selling brand names in the world and is fully owned by CNB which is the top selling boat manufacturer in the world. Thats a huge difference.

You become number one by having a great product.

You become bankrupt because you are not number 1.

 

[PCP]

Maybe your past not mine. My furniture at home is made of solid wood...no veneers...no particle board. Why should my boat be any different. Yes you pay for quality for sure and thats a choice you have. What is better the real think or the glued together reproduction. Thats your choice. As far as sustainability it requires a larger carbon footprint to fabricate the modern day woods and finishes than real wood. In addition real wood will eventually decompose...not so with plastics so thats a moot argument.

....
Then you have the mom and pops still in business Tartan, Sabre, C& C, Caliber, Island Packet, Not your run of the mill production boats ( some dont even consider them as such) who still use quality woods, have superior designs and major R&D monies and modern designs. They are still in business too and are very solvent companies.

A true statement, a 50 foot wave as no respect for any boat, any age. I would rather be in a heavier boat, well designed for sea motion, than in a boat all the weight was taken out of it to save money.

....
Dave

Dave, there are top bluewater modern boats, very expensive boats, that don't use wood neither for bulkheads neither for the interior. For bulkheads and for the interior they use lighter, stronger composite materials that in some cases just have wood in their composition and does look like wood but has only a fraction of the weight.

The reason is to take away all the not needed weight from the upper parts of a sailboat to concentrate all the weight on a lead keel. That permits not only a more strong and seaworthy boat with a overall better stability but also a more stiff and powerful boat, a faster boat and not less comfortable since the weight is the same.

A good example of this kind of boats are XC Yachts, boats that are more heavy than for instance HR, but faster. I don't no if you noticed but last year and this year, different XC making the ARC had one thing in common: amazing results given the weights of the boats. That's what I am talking about, fast comfortable and seaworthy cruisers with all the weight at the right places.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo

 

[blt2ski]

Hunter is in BK more due to the parent which also owns a number of power boat makes. That is the side that is BK! The Hunter portion had to go with the parent. Hunter will probably come out alive IMHO. For that matter, Jeanneau also was BK in the mid 80s, but being as it was french, when bangor-punta the parent went BK, the French gvmnt had a buyer/take over person that sold to Group Beneteau, which has allowed Jeanneau to take over as the overal #1 boat builder in the world with their PB range being pretty large. There is also a inflatable line that was the Fench maker that also went BK, in which GB also took over. Going back to BP's BK in the 80's, they also owner Cal, O'Day and Ranger IIRC along with a few others that are no where to be found other than used today. Henri Jeanneau that started that company, did start with high power motor boats, later switching to fiberglass, then a sailboat in the late 60s from is initial start in the later 50's.

many manufactures have gone thru some tough times and come out swinging. Hopefully while I do not like the Hunter line for various and sundry reasons, nothing major, I do hope it comes out swinging in the end! still building boats etc. WE in NAmerica need boat builders/manufacturing jobs etc. Not all of us can be puter key pushers!

Jeanneau/beneateau/lagoon do build in high tech factories, keeping things pretty tight as far as materials go etc, so they can build at a profit. Jeanneau does have some 30 and 33' boats one can get into for less than 150K base, out the door for less than 200K, but that still takes a 100-200K salary minimum to afford this with a home etc. Still out of the range of an ave income earner of 50K here in NA!

Marty

 

[PCP]

Sorry, but such blanket assertions are simply meaningless... To suggest that a Valiant "cannot compare" with a Beneteau because the latter is still in business, is absurd...

.....

What Rock is saying is that a good modern designed cruiser like the Hanse 415 or the jeanneau 409 is a better designed boat than the Vailant not because the Vaillant was not a great boat (and still is) but because 30 years in design developments make the modern boats better overall sailing boats.

I believe we all agree on this. I am quite sure that if an overall 40ft going around cruiser was commissioned today to Bob Perry, the boat would have more in common with the Hanse or the Jeanneau than with the Vailant.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo

 

[chef2sail]

Dave, there are top bluewater modern boats, very expensive boats, that don't use wood neither for bulkheads neither for the interior. For bulkheads and for the interior they use lighter, stronger composite materials that in some cases just have wood in their composition and does look like wood but has only a fraction of the weight.

The reason is to take away all the not needed weight from the upper parts of a sailboat to concentrate all the weight on a lead keel. That permits not only a more strong and seaworthy boat with a overall better stability but also a more stiff and powerful boat, a faster boat and not less comfortable since the weight is the same.

A good example of this kind of boats are XC Yachts, boats that are more heavy than for instance HR, but faster. I don't no if you noticed but last year and this year, different XC making the ARC had one thing in common: amazing results given the weights of the boats. That's what I am talking about, fast comfortable and seaworthy cruisers with all the weight at the right places.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo

Yes you are right. I was looking at some of the other cruisers too like Hylas, Amel, Nordic, Outbound I am not as well versed in the Eiorpean boats as you and dont get to see them here much. I know they use composite materials now, but the quality between them and the others even in the interiors is at different levels IMHO

Good christmas and new year to you too. I am the Hanhnuka guy and my wife is the christmas person in this family so we get to celebrate both

 

[chef2sail]

I believe we all agree on this. I am quite sure that if an overall 40ft going around cruiser was commissioned today to Bob Perry, the boat would have more in common with the Hanse or the Jeanneau than with the Vailant.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo

I would agree basically because its newer and the use of computers in designer have a greater influence today in terms of virtual testing etc as well as new age materials not aorund 30 years ago.

Not sure Perry would go for the beammmy boats For example if you look at one of my favorite more modern Perry designs which I like, the Saga 43 it is narrow by todays production boat standards. Thre are so many variations and design attitudes its hard to pin point an overall stratagy. New materials is an advancement.

 

[capta]

I think it really comes down to one thing. Would you like to be sailing a boat that can take a hit from a container in 40 knots of wind without damage, or not?
Some manufacturers have a reputation for strength and quality, others have fans.

 

[Cruisingdad]

I think it really comes down to one thing. Would you like to be sailing a boat that can take a hit from a container in 40 knots of wind without damage, or not?
Some manufacturers have a reputation for strength and quality, others have fans.

Hold on, you hit a partially submerged container, in 40 kts wind, and you did no damage? What do you sail? How fast were you going? 40 kts of wind is gale+ conditions... how large were the seas? How did you know it was a container? WOuld love to hear that story.

Brian

 

[capta]

It happened between Newport and Bermuda, November 2010. It was dark so I really cannot answer the waves question, possibly 12 feet??? Probably sailing at 5 to 6 knots, reefed and beating into SE winds, but I wasn't on the wheel so I don't know for sure.
It was a tremendous "bang" and threw us on our beam ends, as it either came down the face of a wave or we slammed into it, just aft of the main shrouds at the waterline. We noticed a piece of the boot stripe missing at that spot when we got in the dink in the VI.
I've hit a whale before and that's like punching flesh; this was an extremely hard, solid hit that threw a 38 ton vessel on her beam ends instantly. I do not know for a fact that it was a container, but it's my best guess and the lost paint is sort a of square bit, like the corner of a container would make.
The boat was a Pearson.

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

Capta so you dont know at all if it was a container. You dont even know the size of the waves but you know the unseen loud bang was a container? That wont stand up in court.

We fell off a wave once in another boat and when we hit the bottom there was a tremendous crash, absolutly tremendous smashing sound that had us in the bilges looking for leaks. When we haulded the boat later we saw the indentation in the antifouling of a turtle shell.

And not a big turtle at that.

 

[smackdaddy]

Okay, Mark, that's not nearly as exciting as a container.

 

[.216558]

Read this thread on Xmas morn and bless the Lord I was able to build a semi custom boat. Our learned contributors note the crew is the weak link is sailing. They do not stress that on a semi custom boat you have the comfort knowing everything is stronger then needed, everything is set up to meet your needs and sensibilities. When you get in the bad stuff you worry about what's important- not the boat failing you. I've spent the last ten years planning my escape. Figured it's worth getting rid of the "toys" ( motorcycles, cars, downsizing the house etc.) to be able to afford the boat I want. Wife knows the fancy vacations, clothes,furniture etc. is a thing of the past. You are betting your life on your boat. What's your life worth to you. They say "if you didn't bring it with you -your don't have it". What they don't say is that's true in the hours before anyone will show up in a coastal setting as well as in the middle of the ocean. Coastal cruising is packed with more potential dangers. It's the hard edges, ships and breaking waves that sink you. Features I thought important
good gyradius and >120 degrees capsize quotient
solid glass hull
internal lead ballast with bulb
non metallic tanks
No balsa, no wood anywhere as structural element
manifold to limit thro hulls
Not dependent on form stability, good comfort motion
All systems accessible for repair or replacement
Designed with "blue water" in mind
collision bulkhead
prop on a shaft
Fast and weatherly

I have nowhere the experience of some other respondants but have done multiple Bermudas and long transports. Been in the 50kt+ storms. Been knocked down, have had the floorboards floating, pooped, watched the hull "oilcan" when the in fill of a "production" boat let go,been called overdue with the Coastguard out looking for us.

If you can afford a semi custom boat - go for it. Evertime you sit in the dinghy and look back you will know you made the right decision. If you can't afford it look at used boats that were single owners and well maintained. Rather be on a twenty year old Shannon,Cherubini, Valiant, PSC, Mason etc. then worry what some hungover line worker did. Want the safety factor of all systems to be in mulitples.