[blt2ski]

David is fuglier than I am, but one will still need blinders if I show up!

That is the truth per this rug rat!

oh, or maybe the cute boat dog Mr Winston!

 

[Oregonian]

Ahoy PCP: I made an error in a statement and I must apologize. In a post on 3-13-13 on the “Full or Fin Keel” thread you referenced the Bavaria brand a number of times and I misinterpreted that as you owning one. Obviously you own a Comet 41. At any rate you gave the following data: 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design. Your latest claim is that your boat outperforms the old design by a “huge margin”. My latest claim: “once again you are guilty of a huge exaggeration”.
Perry, You say “How do you back up that claim? Ridiculous”. look at the numbers Perry, as claimed by PCP. Are those numbers really that much better than a well sailed Cape George 36 or perhaps the old African Star? Well, I don’t think so.
Also, I only referenced the Tayana 37 because it had been previously referenced on page 162 by JeffH. Like yourself, I do not consider it a “benchmark” design.
“I can appreciate the modern designs for what they are and, not for what they are not.
For what it is worth, I am not angry but am chilled.
Help yourself to more coolAid Perry.

 

[SloopJonB]

Ahoy PCP: I made an error in a statement and I must apologize. In a post on 3-13-13 on the "Full or Fin Keel" thread you referenced the Bavaria brand a number of times and I misinterpreted that as you owning one. Obviously you own a Comet 41. At any rate you gave the following data: 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design. Your latest claim is that your boat outperforms the old design by a "huge margin". My latest claim: "once again you are guilty of a huge exaggeration".
Perry, You say "How do you back up that claim? Ridiculous". look at the numbers Perry, as claimed by PCP. Are those numbers really that much better than a well sailed Cape George 36 or perhaps the old African Star? Well, I don't think so.
Also, I only referenced the Tayana 37 because it had been previously referenced on page 162 by JeffH. Like yourself, I do not consider it a "benchmark" design.
"I can appreciate the modern designs for what they are and, not for what they are not.
For what it is worth, I am not angry but am chilled.
Help yourself to more coolAid Perry.

So noobie, you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable about sailboat performance than RP - one of the worlds preeminent yacht designers with hundreds of designs and thousands of boats to his credit over the past 40 odd years?

How many boats have YOU designed? Lets see some of them.

Oh, none is it?

Maybe it's time for a little introspection on your part.

 

[PCP]

..Obviously you own a Comet 41. At any rate you gave the following data: 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design. Your latest claim is that your boat outperforms the old design by a "huge margin". My latest claim: "once again you are guilty of a huge exaggeration".
....

I don't like to make claims about the sailing performance about my boat and I have done so because you clearly were messing up but the performance and even the boat I own. My boat is not very different in performance from any modern fast performance cruiser with a good upwind potential, we could be talking about a First 40 or a Salona 41 that would have a very similar performance.





Your claim that a 36ft full keel 40 year sailboat could be similar or even close to the one of a modern 41ft cruiser/racer is just ridiculous.

I don't know if a Atkins 36 can make in perfect conditions 6.5K very close to the wind, but with 2m short period waves and 13k of trw that boat would not make 6.5K on those conditions even at a much bigger wind angle.

Is an Atkins 36 able to do 28º off the apparent wind even in perfect conditions? I doubt it. I have not many experience with full keel boats, maybe Bob can tell us if that is possible.

Regards

Paulo

 

[bobperry]

Please que up some background music for this post.
I'd like SOMEWHERE OVER THE RAINBOW please.
Maybe we should go with Izzy's version. That's my fav.

Paulo:

You and I and most of the posters here know this is beyond possible.

No, it's not possible and to even think the two boats would even be close in performance shows a true lack of experience with the range of boats. It's really silly. It's beyond silly.
I can't imagine how Oregon could think that. Has he ever sailed a modern boat?

" 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design."

So if I can read English, Oregon is saying an 80 year old Atkin design can go to weather with an AWA of 28 degrees.

No, not possible. But kind of funny.
AWA 38 degrees might be possible.

Don't like CooAid thanks.

 

[smackdaddy]

For what it is worth, I am not angry but am chilled...

...and wrong.

 

[Rhys05]

Look what came up on Yachtworld today:

2002 Brent Swain 36 ft custom built Sail Boat For Sale -

Someone should go check it out!

 

[smackdaddy]

Look what came up on Yachtworld today:

2002 Brent Swain 36 ft custom built Sail Boat For Sale -

Someone should go check it out!

Bushnell's Dove IV is actually one of the nicest BS Boats I've ever seen. The interior is very well done (which is rarely the case) and she appears to be immaculately maintained. She's also very well equipped with the expensive "yachty absurdities" Brent likes to continually decry.

What's sad is that this is actually the PERFECT specimen of a BS Yacht. A lot of time and money has gone into it. And yet it can only command an asking price of $56,000 (+$63 for Brent's royalty). Definitely a value problem with these boats.

 

[Rhys05]

Bushnell's Dove IV is actually one of the nicest BS Boats I've ever seen. The interior is very well done (which is rarely the case) and she appears to be immaculately maintained. She's also very well equipped with the expensive "yachty absurdities" Brent likes to continually decry.

What's sad is that this is actually the PERFECT specimen of a BS Yacht. A lot of time and money has gone into it. And yet it can only command an asking price of $56,000 (+$63 for Brent's royalty). Definitely a value problem with these boats.

Yep, not a bad looking boat. A disappointing lack of numbers though (weight, sail area, etc.) I definitely agree with the terrible resale value, I would imagine that some of that is due to being from steel and some from having the "home-built" stigma attached to it. Not a boat I would personally be interested in, but could be a very good deal for someone that wants that type of boat.

 

[blt2ski]

Whomever did the interior did an absolute fabulous job on that BS boat. Outside is ok, good boat for around here in the drizzly weather we can get etc.

Marty

 

[Rhys05]

Whomever did the interior did an absolute fabulous job on that BS boat. Outside is ok, good boat for around here in the drizzly weather we can get etc.

Marty

Agreed. The interior is beautiful, the exterior...well...it certainly has a certain "tugboat-chic." I like my boat to look fast even when at the dock or at anchor...as well as be fast (relatively speaking, we are talking about sailboats here) when under sail.

 

[GBurton]

Paulo, this is a 80 year old 32 foot Atkin design. The AWA is 32 or so in 8k true wind. This particular Atkin design is not able to point as high as the boat Oregonian is talking about, so I have no doubt he is speaking the truth.
It is shocking that people who claim to be so knowledgeable about boats don't know that an 80 year old design can do this.

Have some more koolAid smacky, PCP and the biggest drinker of all, Bob

 

[smackdaddy]

Paulo, this is a 80 year old 32 foot Atkin design. The AWA is 32 or so in 8k true wind. This particular Atkin design is not able to point as high as the boat Oregonian is talking about, so I have no doubt he is speaking the truth.
It is shocking that people who claim to be so knowledgeable about boats don't know that an 80 year old design can do this.

Have some more koolAid smacky, PCP and the biggest drinker of all, Bob

That's great. But my contention is that when you're talking overall performance, an 80 year old full keel boat is not going to perform like a modern racer/cruiser. PHRF tends to agree.

So take all the photos you want. I'm still not convinced until you're taking every race you're in against Beneteau Firsts, etc. Show me those pickle dishes then we'll talk koolaid.

 

[blt2ski]

I do feel a WELL sailed boat of ANY design, with a great crew will always win the race per say. BUT, depending upon conditions etc. an equal size fin keel will usually beat out the full keel boat for boat!

One boat mentioned, a cape george 36, raced against on 7 or 8 times, I've only been beaten one time with a boat that is 8' smaller. Even the builder that I know, admits my boat would beat HIS boat!

This is not to say that there are not some well design full keelers out there, along with duds too. One can say that for fins too!

Marty

 

[smackdaddy]

Yep, not a bad looking boat. A disappointing lack of numbers though (weight, sail area, etc.) I definitely agree with the terrible resale value, I would imagine that some of that is due to being from steel and some from having the "home-built" stigma attached to it. Not a boat I would personally be interested in, but could be a very good deal for someone that wants that type of boat.

Yeah, for the cruiser wannabe that really wants a steel boat - this would be the way to go. It would be a lot cheaper (with a lot less misery over many years) than actually buying BS' plans and trying to build it yourself.

I'm pretty sure it was this boat that Brent said Bushnell built for $35K all-in (after building several other previously - hence gaining all that experience). So, you're gonna spend AT MINIMUM $35K and several years just getting the thing to float. Why not lowball Dove IV at $45K and save the hassle. Bushnell gets a $10K profit (thanks for the info Brent) - and the cruising wannabe gets one of the best BS Boats on the market for cheap AND in much better shape than even Brent's own boat.

 

[desert rat]

I am going to catch flak for this. How about a two masted junk rig on a slightly larger boat like that?

 

[smackdaddy]

I am going to catch flak for this. How about a two masted junk rig on a slightly larger boat like that?

Do a search for "Nothin' Wong". It's a steeler that sometimes Brent claims is his. It has this kind of rig.

 

[desert rat]

would unsupported masts be easier on a steel boat, and with that free board and squarish cabin I think the look of a junk rig would look great. The first unsinkable junk.

 

[Faster]

I am going to catch flak for this. How about a two masted junk rig on a slightly larger boat like that?

Allen Farrell, a fairly well known BC artist and boat builder, (but in wood, not steel) was known for his junk rigs among others..

a snippet:

Sailing Back In Time: Allen Farrell, dedicated to Millie Illin

 

[PCP]

...

Paulo, this is a 80 year old 32 foot Atkin design. The AWA is 32 or so in 8k true wind. This particular Atkin design is not able to point as high as the boat Oregonian is talking about, so I have no doubt he is speaking the truth.
It is shocking that people who claim to be so knowledgeable about boats don't know that an 80 year old design can do this.

For 13k app wind with that angle and speed the true wind speed is about 8.5k. At that wind angle and conditions my boat (and 40 ft performance boats in general) would be doing 7.0K or maybe a bit over. I make the speed and angle that you are talking about with approximately 5K of true wind.

You forget that I was talking about sailing against 2.0m short period waves and with 8.5K of wind you are talking about flat or almost flat sea. Do you know the importance that has on a boat speed going against waves due to wave drag? For managing that I had full sails out (jib and main) on a boat that has a very big SA/D. That means a very hard motion and a huge sail power involved. Those old boats simply don't have the power to do this, at least with 13K of TRW.

Anyway even so the values you show in what regards TRW (without waves) are more than 10º worse than the values I was talking about even sailing against a very nasty sea. I was doing 41.9º to the true wind and you 54.4º. That is a HUGE difference considering that even so I was going faster. Both things put together, the much better angle and the much superior speed will mean that in very little time you will be a very small point on the horizon, I mean beating directly against the wind.

...
Have some more koolAid smacky, PCP and the biggest drinker of all, Bob

Can you explain what you mean with this:"KoolAid"? "the biggest drinker of all, Bob"? What drinking has to do with this? or you mean that we are all drunk?

Regards

Paulo