[Lantau]

I'm getting ready to replace all of my sails. Currently I have what I think is a standard PS37 cutter setup by Ullman Sails, namely a main on battcars, staysail on roller furler, and 120% high-clew genoa on roller furler. It's easy just to get replacement sails from Ullman, but as I have gotten into this process I have been advised to do different things. One sailmaker wants me to extend the foot of my staysail. Another wants to lower the clew of my genoa to increase its size for light winds. Another wants to change the main. I'm not even mentioning the complications with installing a new sail on my current battcars (easy to do, hard to choose what to do).

What are those of you with the PS37/Crealock 37 using for sails? Right now I'm inclined to take the advice to enlarge the genoa a little bit. The PS sail plan for the boat includes a 130% genoa as one of the possible sails, so I think I should go for this at least. (I should point out that I'm calling mine 120% only because that's what US sails calls it. I haven't compared the measurements to get an exact percentage.)

Yesterday in 10-13 knot winds the boat was nicely balanced, but I started out in about 3-5 knots and a bigger genoa would have been nice to have. This boat was definitely designed for Force 4 (like most sailboats?); it's just perfect at those wind speeds -- such a pleasure. The boat sails itself. Less wind can be a tiny bit frustrating (passengers always want to go faster...), and more wind is also a pleasure but of course livelier as the wind picks up. In 20+ knots I'm usually on a reefed genoa and reefed main, so having a larger genoa wouldn't be any problem (it would be reefed down), assuming I have enough line on the roller furler. The benefit of the larger genoa would come in light winds.

Advice on the PS37 genoa (or sails generally)? Experiences?

If anyone wants to recommend a sailmaker, I'd welcome that, too -- but I think that opens a can of worms.

Many thanks.
Paul
2004 PS37

 

[niftynickers]

Paul,
In my opinion in order to decide what size Genny you should have depends to a great extent on what kind of sailing you intend to do.If you are going to cross oceans you need manageable sails that wont overpower you when things turn nasty (quickly).On the other hand for day sailing in fairly protected waters then larger sails are better.I relied on a sailmaker's recommendation when I replaced my genny and had a decksweeper 150% made not realizing that when trying to furl as the wind howled it would be a bear-and that its shape when partly furled is not the best.On a do- over I would opt for a high-cut Yankee genny and staysail combo for offshore work.
Of course I'm getting older and thus less adventurous.

goodluck,
Dianne and Chuck Burke S/V NiftyNickers C37 #139

 

[Lantau]

Paul,
... On a do- over I would opt for a high-cut Yankee genny and staysail combo for offshore work.
Of course I'm getting older and thus less adventurous.

goodluck,
Dianne and Chuck Burke S/V NiftyNickers C37 #139

Thanks Chuck. Indeed, it sounds like you want exactly what I have. (Sometimes I call my genoa a Yankee, but when I do nobody around here knows what I'm talking about.)

When I first got my boat I was out in a Force 5 that quickly became a Force 7. I had to reef/furl the genoa fast, but after one turn the furler got stuck -- so I could neither furl the sail nor lower it. The drum had been mounted incorrectly! Needless to say, I got wet up there on the bow trying to fix things. Thankfully, the water was warm at the time.

I'm told by the sail makers that I should have a genoa with a "foam" luff because such sails apparently hold their shape when furled. I show my ignorance, and maybe my age, but I have never used a sail with a foam luff.

 

[brokesailor]

I have a 135% Genoa on a Profurl C420 furler made by Quantum. I 44 ft, J 15.75 ft with foam luff. 6.62 woven polyester. 457.1 ft2

This off season I had a 100% working jib made. 338.6 ft2. HA 7.62 woven polyester for offshore work.

 

[Stumble]

It is very dependent on where you sail and what average wind speeds are. But a pretty conservative cruising recommendation is a 135 high clew jib with foam luff. Big enough to provide some power in ligt air, not to big to roll up pretty small and keep some shape. The foam luff by the way helps the sail retain shape as it is furled.

 

[sailingfool]

To me the crux of your question is the role/design of the staysail. Is the staysail a strong material sail that serves as your heavy wind jib? At what wind speed will the boat perform satisfactorily to windward with just the staysail and a full main? I would hope with a cutter you'd be in the special position where you can do the 130% or so genoa, and skip the foam luff, as the staysail/full main is in effect your first, and quite convenient, reef.

I've always liked the idea of the cutter rig with a staysail, on the understanding that the staysail served as a permanently mounted high-wind small jib. Sound right?

 

[Lantau]

To me the crux of your question is the role/design of the staysail. Is the staysail a strong material sail that serves as your heavy wind jib? At what wind speed will the boat perform satisfactorily to windward with just the staysail and a full main? I would hope with a cutter you'd be in the special position where you can do the 130% or so genoa, and skip the foam luff, as the staysail/full main is in effect your first, and quite convenient, reef.

I've always liked the idea of the cutter rig with a staysail, on the understanding that the staysail served as a permanently mounted high-wind small jib. Sound right?

Sailingfool: Indeed, the boat does perform well to windward on a _reefed_ main and staysail. A full main with much wind would involve a lot of weather helm; I'd need the genoa to keep the boat balanced. The true cutter setup is great because it gives lots of options.

All of these ideas and suggestions from everyone are very helpful. The truth is, I'm trying to have it all. Insofar as possible, I want an arrangement of sails that's good for as many conditions as possible. I definitely need sails for serious conditions offshore, but the truth is that very often winds are light. I'm often alone, so the most complicated light-wind arrangement I go for is a poled-out genoa.

I'm inclined to go for a 130% genoa (I have 120% now), probably with a foam luff. (Sailingfool: Why do you say "skip the foam luff"?) The sail plan for the Crealock 37 design includes a 130% genoa. Because I have roller furlers, the tack must be higher than Crealock's original design, so getting the same area means a longer foot (this may explain why my boat came with a 120% genoa).

My current plan also includes replacing my staysail with one that's heavy-ish (8.8 oz. U.S. wt. Dacron). I often use the staysail with double-reefed main, as above, partly because the staysail works great in strong winds and also because it's so easy to use: it can be trimmed without a winch handle in most conditions, at least if I'm quick in setting it during the tack. I may also be a bit old-fashioned and get a trysail, which I don't have now. I have two reefs on the main but sometimes I want even less sail. I have an extra track on my mast (typical strong setup for a Pacific Seacraft), so this is an easy addition for the next offshore passage.

Does any of that sound daft?

 

[Lantau]

Hold the presses! This just in from Thumper at the factory (another reason to buy a Pacific Seacraft):

"Most go with a 105 Yankee if cutter rigged, main reason is when you go to a larger head sail, tacking it through the slot gets tough, especially if you have the staysail on a furler. The boat can certainly handle the 130 as a cutter setup and if you are not concerned about tacking it through, your logic makes good sense."

BTW, I have no problem tacking the 120% through the slot, even if the sail is backed.

This has me thinking that a slightly larger staysail could make sense. This was the recommendation of one sailmaker who looked at my boat...

 

[sailak]

My Genoa is a "130" and not Yankee cut, my 37 is cutter rigged with the staysail on a furler, both headsails have foam luffs. I haven't had any issues tacking. Local winds usually 16-20 knots, quite often I'm staysail and single reefed main going to windward here.

Video: Tacking

 

[Lantau]

My Genoa is a "130" and not Yankee cut, my 37 is cutter rigged with the staysail on a furler, both headsails have foam luffs. I haven't had any issues tacking. Local winds usually 16-20 knots, quite often I'm staysail and single reefed main going to windward here.

Video: Tacking

Thanks Sailak. I'm envious of your cruising grounds.

I see in the video that you have UK sails (main and genoa; US sail staysail). How do you like the UK sails? They have a rep a stone's throw from where I keep my boat, and they are less than US sails. Are they Dacron? Do you know the weight (oz.) of each sail? I'm pushing my luck, but do you by chance have the sail measurements to hand?

I see that you are using the running backstays. I think there has been a discussion on this before, but I'm curious about when you use them. Obviously it's only when the main isn't far off center (close reaching/hauled), and presumably only when you are using the genoa, but in how much wind?

 

[sailak]

The Genny and main were on the boat when I bought it. The staysail I added, it is from Ullman Sails and was purchased as a kit along with the furler and rigging through Thumper at Pacific Seacraft. I have no complaints about any of the sails, but frankly I'm not very experienced either.

I do not have the measurements at hand. The sails are stored in the trailer in my yard but at the moment the yard is slushy snow and mud so I'm not real keen on laying the sail out to measure it.

I use the runners going to windward if I have the staysail set. From what I've learned I don't "need" to use them, I'm doing it to develop the habit/technique/muscle memory so when I do need them it will come naturally.

 

[BirdBrain333]

My sailmaker said he had made many 130 Yankee's which owners later wished had been 110 or so. I went with the 110 and have not regretted the decision at all. But then I'm in my later 60's and sailing the boat back and forth from Maine to the Bahamas most years -- usually singlehanded. I get enough exercise without a 130 up there!

Good luck with your choices,

Jay
SV Kenlanu
Buck's Harbor, Maine

 

[Lantau]

The Genny and main were on the boat when I bought it. The staysail I added, it is from Ullman Sails and was purchased as a kit along with the furler and rigging through Thumper at Pacific Seacraft. I have no complaints about any of the sails, but frankly I'm not very experienced either.

I do not have the measurements at hand. The sails are stored in the trailer in my yard but at the moment the yard is slushy snow and mud so I'm not real keen on laying the sail out to measure it.

I use the runners going to windward if I have the staysail set. From what I've learned I don't "need" to use them, I'm doing it to develop the habit/technique/muscle memory so when I do need them it will come naturally.

Thanks Sailak. I definitely don't want you to go out into the mud to measure sails! Having said that, for those on the list lucky enough to be able to take down their sails like that, I recommend measuring them before putting them back on the boat. Those measurements could be very handy later if you want to order a new sail without taking the old one down -- say, when you are cruising outside the USA.

I like your attitude toward using the running backstays. Maybe I'll use them today...

I guess the consensus on the size of genoa for a PS37/Crealock 37 is, well, no consensus. It could be anything depending on one's preferences. I had assumed that my setup (120% hight-cut RF genoa in front of RF staysail) was common, but maybe not. I'm inclined to conclude that a 130% is just fine. If it's manageable in Alaska, it will be in most places. The factory confirms that 130% is OK even though they are putting far smaller sails on some boats (105%, which I think would be too little sail area in many parts of the world). Crealock also designed the boat for a 150% (with aft rail track, which I've got).

Now I have to decide who will make the sails. I have Ullman now, but I wonder if I can justify paying their price (their quote is about 50% higher than some other reputable sailmakers).

 

[sailak]

Now I have to decide who will make the sails. I have Ullman now, but I wonder if I can justify paying their price (their quote is about 50% higher than some other reputable sailmakers).

The only sail I've ever bought was the staysail I bought from Ullman through Pacific Seacraft. I have to say that I was impressed with their customer service.

When I got the furled kit and staysail installed we found that the luff was just a tiny bit too long -- I could get full hoist but no luff tension. My sail had been made at the Ullman loft on the east coast. To expedite getting things right for me they had me send the sail to Ullman in Anacortes where Chuck Skewes got the sail recut and headed back to me the same day. I sent it out on Mon and had it on the boat Wednesday.

 

[Lantau]

Yesterday I was sailing along, thinking about what I need for new sails. The wind was about 10-12 knots; all was OK under full sails, speed about 6 knots. There was major vessel traffic (including a HUGE container ship, for which I did a 360 to keep my distance as he plowed by), making me glad my genoa is high cut. Behind a big island, wind naturally fell away. I was thinking it might be nice to have a bigger genoa. Some time later, there was a sudden gust of 26 knots; the boat heeled over, as it would under full sail. Just as I was deciding what to do, the wind fell back to 12 knots and all was well. But that gust reminded me that a bigger genoa could be difficult at times. My conclusion after a few hours of sailing: maybe I have been wrong to think that I need a larger genoa. Maybe my boat already has the best all-around setup for the PS37 (RF headsails with the genoa being 120% and high-cut).

By the way, my PS37 as a bowsprit. Some PS37s/Crealock 37s don't have this. For anyone reading this discussion, bear that in mind. Without the bowsprit, I think a smaller genoa might be preferable because the gap between the headstays is at least a few feet shorter. With the bowsprit, the gap is large, so getting the genoa through isn't difficult. Just a thought.

 

[niftynickers]

I think that the gust of wind might have answered your question about which size genny to have on your boat.Sounds to me like you have the right sail combo right now.We all know that the boat can carry larger sails but to what advantage?Unless you are going to race her and have a crew of deck apes I suggest manageable sails for a less sporting day of sailing.Just my 2 cents.

good luck,
Dianne and Chuck Burke S/V NiftyNickers C37 #139

 

[Lantau]

For those interested in this thread...

I have a "120%" genoa on my PS37. Simple enough. But I also have a factory-installed bowsprit, which puts the forward headstay farther forward than in Crealock's original designs. If I understand things, in fact my existing genoa is actually less than a true 120% of my boat's foretriangle, and likely closer to 120% of a foretriangle without bowsprit. This in turn means that my planned new 120% genoa is actually going to be only about 5% smaller than what Crealock called a 130% genoa (on a 37 without bowsprit). That is, my foretriangle is bigger, so any percentage of that is going to be bigger. Makes sense.

The upshot is that this is another reason not to go over 120% genoa (that is, truly 120% of my boat's foretriangle): not only would tacking be a tad bit more involved, among other complications mentioned in this discussion, but it would be substantially bigger that Crealock's 120% genoa (I haven't done the math, but very much bigger than a standard 130%, I guess) and have a moment that is farther forward than Crealock planned.

It gets more complicated, however. Making a genoa that is ACTUALLY 120% of my foretriangle means extending the clew back a bit. No big deal -- except my furling drum is already full of line when the genoa is unfurled! I definitely don't want the bother, or the cost, of replacing the furling drum with a bigger one. So my thinking at this moment is to ask the sailmaker to give me what I've got now.

By the way, he wants to extend the clew on my staysail a bit, which I'll let him do, not least because the new headsails will have foam luffs (which I don't have now) and should work better when reefed.

Who said getting new sails would be simple?! This isn't rocket science, but some days it seems that way to me...

 

[MarcHall]

I think a lot depends on where you are sailing.

On Crazy Fish I have had a 130% fairly low cut genoa, a 105% Yankee and currently a 135% fairly high cut genoa all on a Harken Roller Furling.

I have a hanked-on staysail and the stay is detachable.

For sailing in San Diego with its normally light winds the 135% work well and the higher cut works better for visibility. The visibility comes in handy when sailing on the bay on weekends. Offshore not so important. The staysail is normally not flown and the stay is detached so tacking is much easier. The staysail gets hanked on but normally stays in its bag when sailing to the north where the wind can be stronger. I don't think I get much out of it when using it with the 135% so its normally flown when the wind increases and the genoa gets rolled in.

With the 105% Yankee I used the staysail a lot with the Yankee and would typically gain a 0.5 knot or so when flying it.
I used this setup quite a bit when the boat was based in Los Angeles and made fairly frequent trips to the Channel Islands where the winds tended to be stronger. Easy to adjust the sail area to match the windspeed.

In the future I am looking to add a collapsible bowsprit to the boat to get the mounting point for the asymetrical spinniker out in front of the bow pulpit. It will also be used for a furled Code 0/screecher type sail and then I may look at having a new Yankee built for the boat or at least a smaller genoa built (120 to 110 ?).

Regards
Marc Hall
Crazy Fish - Maintaining, Upgrading and Sailing a Crealock 37 | SV Crazy Fish

 

[scuppersinspired]

While amidst my Airhead installation I too have been notified that my head sail needs replacing. I was fortunate enough to get my current sails for free when I was converting to rollerfurling but had been warned that they had been rolled backward and the sail had UV damage. Sure enough it tore but the tear was halted by the sacrificial material. I was hoping to recut but was told that the UV rot creeps in Dacron and the sail should be replaced. It is a shame because the rest of the sail is in nice shape. I hate when these things stack up on top of each other. Lantau, I havn't done any research yet but can you give me a price range that you've been finding? What is the proper way to go about getting prices? Should I just take my measurements and call around or should I have someone come out to my boat and take a look?

 

[Lantau]

While amidst my Airhead installation I too have been notified that my head sail needs replacing. I was fortunate enough to get my current sails for free when I was converting to rollerfurling but had been warned that they had been rolled backward and the sail had UV damage. Sure enough it tore but the tear was halted by the sacrificial material. I was hoping to recut but was told that the UV rot creeps in Dacron and the sail should be replaced. It is a shame because the rest of the sail is in nice shape. I hate when these things stack up on top of each other. Lantau, I havn't done any research yet but can you give me a price range that you've been finding? What is the proper way to go about getting prices? Should I just take my measurements and call around or should I have someone come out to my boat and take a look?

I think this is one of those things that sailors won't agree on. My approach has been to get quotes from five or six sail makers. The prices are all over the place, but it's hard to compare quotes because each sail maker quotes a slightly different kind of sail. To get more comparable quotes you would have to specify exactly which kind of material you prefer, the weight (bearing in mind that weights mean different things to different sail makers; 7 oz. to one is 8 oz. to another, etc.), et cetera, down to the last detail. It sounds like you definitely need to have things measured before you finally order a sail because your boat's furling system and the like may be unique and certainly won't be generic. If your boat is recent, Pacific Seacraft may have the measurements. (Mine is 2004. They didn't, but the original sail maker did. Alas, the latter's prices are near the top and with shipping the costs would be double what I'd pay locally.)

What amazes me is how the expert sail makers differ in their advice. Tell them what you want and they all come up with different advice. For example, I'm told that I'm crazy to have a genoa over about 5 oz. by one guy while another insists it should be 9.5 oz.! One assumes that something in between is about right (7 oz., but, again, 7 oz. in Britain isn't the same as in the USA, at least not according to some sail makers). No way am I putting a huge sail of 9.5 oz. off my bow; now way would a 5 oz. genoa last long on a PS37 (at least not mine, with lots of stuff for the sail to chafe across on each tack).

I have been going back and forth for months with a sail maker that I paid to come measure my boat. Of course they can throw something together easily, but I have learned that you really need to be very specific about all the details. I'm not an expert with decades of offshore sailing experience, so these details don't come easily to me. (Hence asking questions on this forum!)

Headsails are relatively easy (but I hadn't considered foam luffs at first, so that was something I have decided to add), but mainsails are a pain in the backside because you need to decide where the reefs will be, what kind they will be and so forth, and you need to be sure that the luff gear (in my case, a battcar system) is compatible with the new sail (very complicated). Did I mention battens? There are so many kinds. Sail makers quote one kind (short, round), but likely you'll need another (long, flat)....

Get a quote from one of the top sail makers. Then cut that by about 75% to get the amount you would pay one of the less-known makers. Add in shipping costs to get the final price. Bear in mind that they use different materials; well, not always. Sometimes they source their Dacron from the same place (often USA) and have them stitched in China or somewhere else. My advice would be to go with someone nearby if possible, ideally someone you can get along with. Alas, the local guy near my boat is, well, odd from my perspective, and I have trouble communicating well with him. Each time I decide to buy from him he says something that puts me off. (And he's far from the least expensive.) Who would've thought that something like that would be so important? That's sailing...

I'm sure these comments will conjure up debate. Truth is, I don't know what's best. I'd have new sails by now if I did.