[zAr]

Ok, so I've been looking at two boats, both CS36T's, in different locations. I've viewed both, following most of the pre-survey steps, and they seemed in good condition.

One, a 1979, is loaded with addons, some nice modifications, lots of goodies. The second, a 1980, is very simple and plain, like it first came from the factory. The first had three sails, the second had eight (though in fair condition). Both hulls were in good condition, recently epoxied and antifouled. Owner #1 knows a lot about his boat and its history, owner #2 seemed to not know even basic stuff like rode length and engine hours. I suspect #1 is a knowledgeable cruiser who cares about his boat and #2 is a more of a racer who cares about winning - with the boat being merely a means to that end.

Ok, now before I could make an offer on either I submitted the info to the bank - HIN, license #, all the details, etc. Before any surveys could be arranged, the bank appraised #2 (plain'n'simple boat) at near the asking price and #1 (loaded with goodies boat), which is listed at $10k less than #2, at 20% less than asking!!!

What do the bank appraisers know that I don't? Do they have access to insurance/accident info? How do the banks go about these appraisals?

Now I'm spooked about #1, though I drool at all the add-ons. Should I be?

 

[sailingdog]

It might just be the one year difference between the two boats. One boat is 30 years old... and the 30 year mark may be significant to the bank, kind of like how prices are $X.95 instead of $X+1.

I'd would recommend you read the Boat Inspection Trip Tips thread I started, since it will help you figure out if there is a reason that Boat #1 is priced relatively low or if it is a good deal. It might just be that Boat #2 is trying to get the most for his boat. I seriously doubt it is worth $10,000 more than Boat #1 unless there is something really wrong with Boat #1.

 

[artbyjody]

What do the bank appraisers know that I don't? Do they have access to insurance/accident info? How do the banks go about these appraisals?

Now I'm spooked about #1, though I drool at all the add-ons. Should I be?

You can counter with a survey report on the #1 if that is the boat you want. A Survey report will have the appraised value. Their appraisal is based on several factors (and some will never make sense) and until you have a survey actually done ... if you have not made an offer, then get a survey (its a hungry market out so you do not necessarily have to have an offer on the table to do so). Resubmit the survey to the bank and ask them to reconsider.

However, should you want to make an offer (as of right now) - use the bank's current loan amount and their valuation as the offer. If you follow where I am going - then you may be able to get a good deal if the survey comes back with a clean bill of health. Again its a buyers market currently... could work in your favor and you may find the surveyor appraisal is in line with the banks. Don't be spooked though - it could be as simple as that year boat and the value guides the bank uses do show a lower price (ie its a 30 year boat - but the 80's one is only 29 or considered in the 25-30 yr bracket). You can also ask the bank how they came up with that validation...

 

[sailingfool]

Depending on how you plan to use your boat, you should eliminate one of the two boats as an option...one of them is not right for you and will end up costing you a lot extra if you go for it.

If you are interested in racing, only consider boat 2.

If you are interested in coastal cruising, it sounds like boat 1 would be the boat.

Most banks are clueless about boats, they have some agent who tells them the answers. Their agent probably uses a simple formula that doesn't make allowance for equipment and condition, and I bet he doesn't even see the boats.

If the issue is financing, you should find out if the bank will accept a surveyor's estimated value for financing purpose, if not, you need to accept their estimate as the basis for financing, you just may need more money down. What is more important is that they insurance company will cover the full purchase price...there the survey estimated value should carry the day.

If you PM me a link to the boat listing, I'll be glad to comment on it.

 

[boatpoker]

Artbyjody has it right ...

"that year boat and the value guides the bank uses do show a lower price (ie its a 30 year boat - but the 80's one is only 29 or considered in the 25-30 yr bracket). You can also ask the bank how they came up with that validation"

Most Ontario banks know little of boats and just use the "Computer Boat Value" book to look up the value based on year of mfg. Neither this price guide or any of the others (NADA, BUC) are very accurate as they have not been able to keep up with the upheaval in the market for the last year.
It is not unusual to see boats selling for 40 percent less than their listed price right now.

If you are approaching the bank based on the listing price rather than the actual price you can buy for, your numbers are probably way out of whack.

It is most definetly a buyers market right now, take advantage of it.

 

[zAr]

Thank you everyone, as usual you've been incredibly helpful and I think this is a case of all of you being right (so far).

I'm going to make the offer on #1 after all and follow artbyjody's advice of using the survey appraisal if necessary to find the value.

I think boatpoker is right that boats are selling for 40% below asking. It's true that works out for me as a buyer.

Sailingdog, I do use your boat inspection tips. They've been incredibly helpful and thank you!

Sailingfool, I'll be PMing you shortly with the details.

 

[TSOJOURNER]

If I read the original post correctly, the bank was discounting from ASKING prices. Unless both vendors were asking the same price, comparing the two bank values is not a particularly useful exercise.

 

[boatpoker]

If I read the original post correctly, the bank was discounting from ASKING prices. Unless both vendors were asking the same price, comparing the two bank values is not a particularly useful exercise.

No discounting asking prices at the banks in Ontario. All banks in Ontario use the " Computer Boat Values " book you can buy one at Computer Boat Values

but its not worth the money.

 

[gelsailing]

Any advice on finding used boat actual sales prices in USA? Is it true in US also that sales prices are about 40% less than asking??

 

[camaraderie]

Gel...a broker has access to the actual sale prices through yachtworld. Ask for a printout if you are interested in a particular boat. You will see a WIDE variation as condition is everything.
NO...40% is WAY too much. Most sell for 10-20% off provided there are no significant survey issues that were not known at the time the price was set.

 

[boatpoker]

40% discount from asking price is not uncommon in this market. Check out repossessions in Florida ! www.soldboats.com provides actual sales prices and most brokers are members of this yachtworld.com company and have access to this info but it will cost you several hundred dollars to join.
BUC boat values and NADA Marine Appraisal guides on line are not to be trusted as they have not been able to keep up with the collapsing market.

 

[sailingfool]

You won't find many vessels lke CSes being sold as distressed property, they draw too much of a premium, they also aren't likely to sell at a big discount.

 

[zAr]

Here's a follow up to this issue.

The broker was looking through his Computer Boat Value book, which is used by Canadian banks to appraise boats, and found that the value the bank gave for the boat and year was identical to the 2008 wholesale value, not the retail value.

So he thinks the bank may be using wholesale and not retail value. As the broker explained it to me, the wholesale value is used by dealers to determine trade-in value. The retail value is what ordinary buyers with no trade-ins would use (e.g. me).

The wholesale value is usually 25% less than retail.

So I sent the bank a message asking if it's an error or did they intend to use the wholesale rather than retail value.

This story to be continued...

zAr