SailNet Community banner

81 - 100 of 138 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,958 Posts
I don't know about craving weight, but keel boats certainly have tons of weight intentionally added for ballast. I get the desire to swap it for something with dual purpose. I think there are two limitations for adding batteries to the keel. Nothing on a boat is actually waterproof, including the hull. We all get some sort of leak eventually. Further, no two keels are alike. This would make manufacturing efficiency very difficult and very expensive.

It would be nice to see an effective long range electric solution, but it's not in the cards with current technology. Actually, most of the advancements in both batteries and charging (solar/wind) have been in manufacturing efficiency, not storage capability. The energy density, therefore storage of potential energy, of carbon based fuels can't be beat so far.
Is it really more complicated to make something waterproof than developing a completely new battery technology (and pay for it)? Including all the safeguards to prevent them from blowing up?

As for 'no two keels are alike,' you could make the same argument for everything. No two cars are alike. Still, there are modular designs (not only batteries but everything, motors that lift your windows, air bags, everything) that work in many different cars. Why not design a boat with a hollow keel and fill it to capacity with something like 8Ds?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,399 Posts
Bored, can’t sleep. Just looked up prices of Lithium batteries, GC2. The cheapest I saw was over $2,000 per batterie. So I would be looking at about $10,000 for my house bank of 4 GC2 batteries? Really? What am I doing wrong?
Deserves a new thread.

IMO forget drop-ins, forget 12V units, forget automotive BCI form factors.

And yes, in the NA market, starting point for quality LFP is at least 7x the cost per Ah compared to lead.

Not an economic proposition really.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,399 Posts
Is it really more complicated to make something waterproof than developing a completely new battery technology (and pay for it)? Including all the safeguards to prevent them from blowing up?



As for 'no two keels are alike,' you could make the same argument for everything. No two cars are alike. Still, there are modular designs (not only batteries but everything, motors that lift your windows, air bags, everything) that work in many different cars. Why not design a boat with a hollow keel and fill it to capacity with something like 8Ds?
Yes but that's a boat design / mfg issue.

It would take an innovative maker to do it.

99% of boat buyers do not consider living off grid for long periods of time.

Most get back to shore power quite frequently.

And the "waterproof battery bank" that continues to operate under a flooded bilge, well that is not trivial, not in the boatbuilder's wheelhouse, at all.

I think it's possible to create that, aftermarket to suit any boat, have some ideas along those lines if you start a new thread.

But no, just adding more weight is not a universal improvement. The naval architect designed the optimum, and 99% of off-grid cruisers are already loaded way heavier than they intended.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,895 Posts
Really? Wouldn't a heavier keel improve pretty much every monohull's performance? Am I the only one who likes better sailing quality?
Not everyone has a monohull, and most monohulls are designed to have their keel weight and depth work with all other design elements of the boat. So I doubt a heavier keel would improve performance, and would likely decrease it.

For a given design keel weight, it makes performance sense to put the weight as low as possible, on as high an aspect foil as possible. However, I don't think it would be practical to have batteries in a bulb on the end of a high-aspect foil.

I don't even thing it is practical to use lead batteries as primary ballast on a full-keel boat. What do you do when you need to replace them - tip over? And they would be experiencing a lot of tipping and forces when heeled - more so then if they were in the center of gravity.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,399 Posts
That's all true, but for heavy stuff like tankage and batteries, as a general rule lower the better.

A keel **could** be designed with a space for banks and tanks to get "slotted in" just above its ballast lead.

With modules of compensating blocks attached in those spaces while the weight design is kept "as stock", to be removed as the aftermarket weight is installed there in its place.

Routing channels for a "lowest points" collection plumbing for bilge pumps, combined with third-party designs for low-profile "waterproof" battery modules, intra-bank connection terminations at busses just under removable plates at or above the sole level. . .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,484 Posts
......
And yes, in the NA market, starting point for quality LFP is at least 7x the cost per Ah compared to lead.

Not an economic proposition really.
I dont know where youre getting this from.

My lfp batts were and still are about 2x equvilant trojan t105s
Usable energy

I could market fla batts are much more sensitive, higher maint...and quite dangerous
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,399 Posts
I did say in that market.

My base point of comparison is $1-2 per Ah at 12V for lead, including transport to install location.

And usable capacity is not doubled, for good longevity compare 50% to 80%.

Please provide links to pricing, to build say a 400+Ah bank, for

Winston, CALB, GBS, A123 or Sinopoly, in large prismatic cells,

available from known-reputable domestic sellers.

Also adjustable BMS, if over $200 also use a domestic supplier.

I'm a huge fan of LFP, but there are many factors involved to get strictly economic ROI compared to lead, over a decade payback makes it very risky.

But lower weight, less space, no need to get to Full, super high CAR, no need for solar, the cool factor. . .

The reasons to "go for it" go beyond pure financial reasons.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,074 Posts
Electrical equipment needs to be made more efficient ... such as LEDs instead of heated filament lamps... and with the efficiency your boat will need less storage capacity. In addition alternate sources for generating amps should be advancing in design to produce more output... ie more efficient. Both of these will mean smaller storage batteries.

And you can always find a way to use less electricity. I haven't stayed on docks or in slips for 34 years and do fine w/ respect the electric power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,958 Posts
Yes but that's a boat design / mfg issue.

It would take an innovative maker to do it.

99% of boat buyers do not consider living off grid for long periods of time.

Most get back to shore power quite frequently.

And the "waterproof battery bank" that continues to operate under a flooded bilge, well that is not trivial, not in the boatbuilder's wheelhouse, at all.

I think it's possible to create that, aftermarket to suit any boat, have some ideas along those lines if you start a new thread.

But no, just adding more weight is not a universal improvement. The naval architect designed the optimum, and 99% of off-grid cruisers are already loaded way heavier than they intended.
OK, I admit I was a bit flippant when I say we crave weight. And obviously there are limits (certainly reached when the outside water level reaches the gunnels :eek

I just wanted to make the point that we put literally TONS of lead into the keel (of monohulls) that does nothing but being heavy. Since one standard complaint about batteries (in particular if they are lead-based) is their weight, why not make it an asset rather than a liabillity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,958 Posts
That's all true, but for heavy stuff like tankage and batteries, as a general rule lower the better.

A keel **could** be designed with a space for banks and tanks to get "slotted in" just above its ballast lead.

With modules of compensating blocks attached in those spaces while the weight design is kept "as stock", to be removed as the aftermarket weight is installed there in its place.

Routing channels for a "lowest points" collection plumbing for bilge pumps, combined with third-party designs for low-profile "waterproof" battery modules, intra-bank connection terminations at busses just under removable plates at or above the sole level. . .
Now we're talking...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,895 Posts
A 360Ah CALB LFP bank (actual capacity at least 400Ah) for $1840: electriccarpartscompany.com

I won't even try to find a less expensive BMS, at the same place you will find the Orion BMS for $480. This is a well-regarded one, but there are definitely less expensive just as good ones. Why you discount anything Chinese made is beyond me.

So, a LFP bank total cost $2278

The equivalent capacity in LA is 660Ah. Six Lifeline AGM 220Ah 6V batteries cost $2460 - you can find them on Amazon, and many, many other places for about the same price.

Right there, an LFP bank is cheaper than a lead bank, but let's make the cost equal because there will still be some small bits and bobs to connecting up the LFP bank - and I am ignoring that those are mostly the same things needed to connect up a LA bank.

You can go with Sam's Club flooded GC batteries. Those will cost you $600 for an equivalent capacity. But I think that is really comparing apples and oranges - or simply picking and choosing to make a point.

Even if you do go with cheap flooded batteries, the cost differential is less than 4x - not 7x.

And if you choose Trojan T105's like registered's example, you will pay $1000, which turns out to be very close to 1/2 the cost of an LFP bank - like he said it was.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,399 Posts
I have had dealings with Carl at electric car parts company. He's knowledgeable, but a one man show, so the quality of customer service depends on his personality alone, just let that be all I say.



You will not get a free extra 10% from CALB best I've seen is 4% so far.

The lead equivalent to 360Ah LFP is 225, in Deka currently under $215 including my cost to pickup, just down the road.

Seven times that is under $1500.

Factor in the extra delivery charges and the BMS as well.

Of course you can find more expensive lead batteries, but that's just obfuscation, the Deka FLA will last just as long as Lifeline, and who orders those on Amazon anyway?

And then all the other infrastructure conversion expenses. . .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,895 Posts
John, you haven't seen squat because you don't actually have a LFP bank, and have never bought or handled prismatic LFP's. Nor a boat. Frankly, you have zero actual experience with LFP usage on a boat. Zero. Nada. Prove me wrong.

I just ordered CALB batteries from that company I listed. They were delivered within a few days, and it was across country. The 180Ah cells came with the factory test sheet showing that they had tested capacities of 208.9Ah-210Ah. I balanced them, charged them, and did a capacity test, and I came up with 208Ah. So there you are - you have seen CALB cells with over 10% capacity above the rating. I have spoken to CALB about this, and their answer was all of their 180Ah cells are designed for 200Ah, but they find it better to label them as 180Ah because they have more leeway for manufacturing variance. FWIW, shipping was $150, but it could have been free if I lived down the road from either their Utah or California businesses.

But besides that you find them wanting in customer interaction, simply price CALB cells anywhere else - they are all the same price.

The lead equivalent capacity to 360Ah LFP is approx. 660Ah, not 225Ah, as you state. If the 225Ah was a simple mistake on your part, then I call BS on you getting 660Ah of any battery for under $215. I don't know which "Deka" you are referring to, but if it is a cheap flooded battery, then you are playing the variables to make your point. Also with picking them up in person. Not everyone lives next to a battery distributor. Not everyone can handle FLA on their boat, and AGM or Gel is a much better comparison to LFP for many reasons.

Like I said, the Lifeline batteries are sold in many, many places, and have similar prices. Pick your favorite outside of Amazon and run the numbers again.

John, you are simply speaking out of your rear here. You seem to be on every RV and boating forum spouting knowledge about LFP batteries, dropping industry names, intimating personal relationships that don't exist, and telling everyone how wrong they are about LFP. In the forums you have not yet been run out of, people keep asking you to describe your LFP batteries and your boat/RV. So far, nothing but crickets out of you.

Prove me wrong.

Mark
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
12,180 Posts
And that's probably the most realistic attitude!

There are some on these threads who have the budget and inclination to install the best of everything on their boats. Then there was one guy I remember who commented that he goes to Walmart and buys a big cheap starter battery (not deep discharge), uses it for a year or so until it is dead, then buys a new one.

Now that is being practical :)

I suppose the only thing more "simplistic" than that is buying oil lamps and being old school. However, oil lamps are much more harmful to the environment that a tiny solar panel, small motorcycle battery and a bunch of LEDs (IMO).
None of us likes to throw money away for just the sake of it. Cavelierly saying it's simple begs whether you chose to take a simpleton approach.


Since my AGM historically have lasted 10+ years their cost the ffectiveness equals 3 replacementnts of wet cells. Not to mention the time and aggrevation of replacing batteries 3 times intear of one and the costs associated. AGM take charge more quickly than wet. AGM don't loose their charge over winter like a wet would. Never require constant filling with DISTILLED water ( hidden expense and again time and effort) AGM you don't sorry about battery acid leaking. AGM can be laid on their sides to mximize battery cabinet space.

AGM have downsides also.....but are wet cells simpler....not hardly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mbianka

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,386 Posts
None of us likes to throw money away for just the sake of it. Cavelierly saying it's simple begs whether you chose to take a simpleton approach.


Since my AGM historically have lasted 10+ years their cost the ffectiveness equals 3 replacementnts of wet cells. Not to mention the time and aggrevation of replacing batteries 3 times intear of one and the costs associated. AGM take charge more quickly than wet. AGM don't loose their charge over winter like a wet would. Never require constant filling with DISTILLED water ( hidden expense and again time and effort) AGM you don't sorry about battery acid leaking. AGM can be laid on their sides to mximize battery cabinet space.

AGM have downsides also.....but are wet cells simpler....not hardly.
My experience with AGMs (now 9 years old) is similar to chef’s. Because of the charge retention, that means you don’t have to remove them over the winter or periodically charge them during an extended haul-out. Since these things are heavy (~66 lbs for each of my 5 batteries) so leaving them in place is a real advantage over liquid cells.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,958 Posts
My experience with AGMs (now 9 years old) is similar to chef’s. Because of the charge retention, that means you don’t have to remove them over the winter or periodically charge them during an extended haul-out. Since these things are heavy (~66 lbs for each of my 5 batteries) so leaving them in place is a real advantage over liquid cells.
Not so much these days where most people have at least some kind of solar charging
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,528 Posts
My experience with AGMs (now 9 years old) is similar to chef’s. Because of the charge retention, that means you don’t have to remove them over the winter or periodically charge them during an extended haul-out. Since these things are heavy (~66 lbs for each of my 5 batteries) so leaving them in place is a real advantage over liquid cells.
That goes doubly for my 8A4D AGM's for my electric propulsion bank at 120 pounds each. Solar and a monthly charge over the winter seems to work well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,817 Posts
So what would one recommend to replace 4-GC2 Lead Acid batteries. My batter box is built to EXACTLY fit the 4 GC2 batteries, so I’m stuck with that size format. We live aboard in the Caribbean for 6 months then put the boat up. While aboard we are 100% on the hook. We have ample solar and wind. I’m 68 years old and don’t need batteries with a 30 year life span or payback. Pretty low power drain: all LED, reefer is our biggest drain. Very simple boat systems wise, use AC only in rare circumstances like charging computers. Honda 2000 generator.

I’m estimating our daily current draw at about 125 amps when laying on the hook. If we ever go North again that will go up substantially to run the Espar D4.

It would be interesting to hear the suggestions.
 
81 - 100 of 138 Posts
Top