[theonecalledtom]

Question for you rules people!

Port tack boat inside the zone crosses clean in front of a starboard tack boat right on the edge of the zone (possibly outside). She then bears down to the mark passing close-hauled, i.e. comfortably ahead. Because she is slow the starboard tack boat, within the zone now, gains an overlap on the inside of the tacker who is bearing away in front of her and the pesky bugger calls for room.

Is the starboard tacker entitled to room despite being clearly behind on entry to the zone?

Is there any discrepancy if they would or would not have to sail above closehauled to clear the port tacker's transom?

Is there discrepancy if the starboard tacker is inside the zone when the port tacker enters the zone?

 

[svzephyr44]

Best blog every on the rules of racing

Racing Rules of Sailing - Look to Windward

 

[theonecalledtom]

That is a good blog - I've been there before.

My interpretation of 18.3, apprently not shared by all hence the question here, is:

Is the starboard tacker entitled to room despite being clearly behind on entry to the zone?
>>> Yes

Is there any discrepancy if they would or would not have to sail above closehauled to clear the port tacker's transom?
>>>> No, but being forced to sail above close hauled is a penalty in its own right even though the port tacker did tack cleanly in front (would be a great and annoying tack outside the zone)

Is there discrepancy if the starboard tacker is inside the zone when the port tacker enters the zone?
>>>> No. They merely need to be fetching the mark. The aim is to avoid pile ups on crowded windwark marks resulting in lots of luffing boats drifting into the mark and each other.

 

[Sailormon6]

I believe Rule 18, relating to room at a mark, applies only to boats on the same tack. If I understand your fact situation correctly, the boats were on opposite tacks throughout.

I think your question is answered at the following link. Racing Rules of Sailing: Overlaps that Begin Inside the Zone | Sailing World
Scroll down to the paragraph that begins: "Situations where Rule 18.3(b) requires...."

 

[theonecalledtom]

My reading is that that backs up my response above. I'm just trying to verify that I'm not boxed into a mental corner here thinking that gaining a late overlap on a tacker inside the zone is fine and they owe you room.

It's confusing enough trying to keep safe and smooth on crowded rounding a without me shouting incorrect interpretations of rules at everyone!

 

[paulk]

Thought I had responded to this earlier, but it apparently got swallowed in the Internet. I find the situation difficult to picture based on the OP's description. If P, inside the 3-boatlength zone, passes "clean in front" of S, and then "heads down" to round the mark, does that mean they are leaving the mark to starboard and that P overstood? Is it a leeward mark? It is mentioned that P is involved in tacking, but only after being "comfortably ahead". The description is not clear.
Based on the subsequent discussion, a possible scenario is that P passes ahead of S and then tacks, and then heads off to round as close as possible to the windward mark. If S secures an inside overlap and calls for room (even though it is too late, once inside of the 3-length zone to call for room) perhaps P tacked too close. But then both boats are on starboard tack, no? If it is a windward mark, and S is fetching it, then doesn't P (who after tacking becomes W, for Windward) need to keep clear of S, who is Leeward? This is why you don't approach the windward mark on port tack: you can get into trouble. S does not get room, but if she is fetching the mark she IS entitled to rights as leeward boat. 18.3 does not apply here, since there was no overlap at the 3 boatlength zone limit. P (who becomes W) cannot cut S (who beomes L) off if S is fetching the mark.

 

[PaulinVictoria]

This is why I do foredeck instead of helm/tactics People at the blunt end shout, people at the pointy end do things.

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

This pic from 2 days ago at the start of the Caribbean 600 mile race

Wooden boat on starboard. White boat on port.

White boat dismasted after wooden boat clipped the backstay.

Great photo, but have a look in the background: the red boat cant tack, and the starboard white boat may not be able to see the dismasted boat... Could get tricky.

 

[PaulinVictoria]

I think bowman on red boat can see S-white and thinks they have them crossed safely, foreshortening of the lens probably makes that look closer than it is. Rest of them, I predict lots of shouting, raising of flags and wiggling of cravats in the club afterwards. Not sure what grey is doing topless in the background either.

 

[rgscpat]

If I were running a protest hearing or arbitration you'd be cross-examined until the original description makes much more sense.
Rule 18 applies to boats on different tacks at offwind marks, but not at windward marks. So knowing what kind of mark is there might be useful.
"Bears down passing close hauled" doesn't give me that great a picture of what port did relative to starboard, the mark, and the zone. No comprendo. Diagram, pretty please.
Because I don't know for sure whether maybe port tacked in the zone and thus might have, loosely put, given up her overlap rounding privileges, if she had any in the first place. Rule 18.3 is about "tacking in the zone". So, did port pass head to wind, while within the zone or not? Yes or no? And if yes, did port give mark room if needed or affect starboard's navigation in what way? When were there overlaps made and broken? Did anyone call the overlaps made or broken? What exactly did the witnesses say they saw?
Although hails aren't required or recognized here, they can be useful in these situations.
Based on the information so far presented, both Parties owe the protest committee beer for not presenting a clear case.

 

[theonecalledtom]

To clarify - and I think my understanding of the rule is pretty solid now.

This is at a windward mark to be left to port with the next mark a leeward mark.

Port tack boat tacks at the mark to round with it to their port side. They over stand a bit allowing starboard tack boat who was close hauled and fetching the mark to gain an inside overlap as the tacking boat Bears away.

If the port tacker had tacked earlier they would have been clear in front of the starboard tacker but likely forced a luff due to speed differences.

The situation is identical to situation 38 in Dave Perry's excellent rules quiz for the current rules.

 

[paulk]

So P tacked to windward of S to avoid tacking too close: (they would have "likely forced a luff due to speed differences"), and then P headed down to round the mark. THAT is P's mistake. Since S is making the mark, P (now W) needs to keep clear of S (or L, take your pick) and P's heading off to round the mark is not an option unless they stay clear of S. This is why you don't come in to a windward mark on port and then tack. You get into sticky situations.