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I guess there is a Porter and Haylett marking on the boat.
So what is a HIN? Hull ID number? Something like a VIN on a car?
Is there a place I can lookup these numbers online, like a car and see if it has a salvaged title or something?
Yes, HIN is like a VIN on a car. It gives the date of manufacture, the model number, and the maker. But since this boat appears to be built in the UK now, it will not have a HIN embossed on the transom. Those didn't start there until late 90's.

Mark
 

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Yeah it's definitely an eye of the beholder thing.
At first I saw this one and thought well, that's definitely not a looker:
View attachment 136812

And then I saw this one with a dodger and sails up and thought, well actually that looks pretty good:
View attachment 136813

In any case looks are far from my priority list. Especially since the boats I found the prettiest - the IOR era with the short waterlines Jeff_H has convinced me to avoid. And my favorite lookers include the Scandinavian folkboats and the Tayana 37 so what do I know. Haha-
Fun, not sure where you found those pics ... you do realize both these pics are of my old boat. The first one on the hard is actually taken after we replaced all the old, unseaworthy portlights with proper sea ports. So the top picture shows a rather unique Grampian 34 cabin.

I too love the Tayana 37. They're almost as nice as my Rafiki 37 馃榾. Actually, they are very similar. We often get mistaken for one, or for a Baba.
 

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Fun, not sure where you found those pics ... you do realize both these pics are of my old boat...
LOL, wow that's fantastic. What a small world!
So there you go, it's a boat that looks better on the water, where it belongs ;-)

I too love the Tayana 37. They're almost as nice as my Rafiki 37 馃榾. Actually, they are very similar. We often get mistaken for one, or for a Baba.
Yep, I noticed the similarity. I don't know what you call that 'style' of boat but they sure are pretty.
And look tough as nails too!
 

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So I found yet another 'inconsistency' in the Grampian 34.
One picture shows the hours on the engine at over 1880. And here I thought it was a like new engine.
looks brand new in the photos, super clean (see photo above), then you look at the hours and it's like yikes! It's old!
136821


As a cruiser I expect to be using the engine a lot- when winds are low, for recharging batteries or taking a hot shower. So I'd set a goal of about 900 hours or less with documentation of good maintenance. So this is a disappointment...
 

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1,880 hours is not an old engine. Especially, on a 40 year old boat.
 

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1,880 hours is not an old engine. Especially, on a 40 year old boat.
Well it's supposed to be a 2007 engine...
Anyway I had the idea that 200-500 was relatively new, 500-1000 was worn, and 1000-1500 was well used, and anything over 1500 if you don't know for sure the maintenance schedule it could very well be completely shot.

The oldest I've ever seen in an ad was 3000, and I thought it was a miracle it was still running.

Where would you set the ranges of tolerance for a purchase decision? Mind you I expect to be using the engine a lot and will need one sure to last at least several years.
 

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mine has over 5,000 from 1985 and it's running fine. Could it use work? Yes... it does smoke at start up and burn a bit.. very little oil... but it starts right up. Volvo MD17D
 

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You simply can鈥檛 establish engine condition and likely longevity by hours alone. If new in 2007, that鈥檚 a bit over 100 hrs per year, which seems like proper usage to me. If well maintained, an engine that like could be in its prime. If it had, say, 500 hours, I would be worried it sat around too much. Engines rot when they sit. They rot when poorly maintained.

There is nothing about those hours that would scare me away. Many run just fine for many thousands of hours (with good maintenance). I would have a good engine survey performed.
 
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The rule of thumb is that diesels will need a major servicing every 10,000 hours, so one with 1800 hrs has lots of theoretical life. The usage does not seem heavy to me for a 2007 engine, but you really need to see and test it yourself to know for sure. Hours are just one measure of the state of the engine.
 

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My use averages 150 hrs /yr including 5 years living aboard. Lately it's way down at around 50 - 75.
 

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Well it's supposed to be a 2007 engine...
Anyway I had the idea that 200-500 was relatively new, 500-1000 was worn, and 1000-1500 was well used, and anything over 1500 if you don't know for sure the maintenance schedule it could very well be completely shot.
We recently bought a 2005 boat with 1800hrs on each diesel (two of them), and considered that a low number of hours. Our previous boat was a 1998 and we sold it with 3000hrs on each engine, and considered that to just be entering middle age. I would consider high hours as starting around 6-7,000hr, and would be negotiating an engine replacement price drop at 8-10,000hrs.

Of course, as others have correctly pointed out, engine hours are not the only way to judge the condition of an engine. Many generators that were always run loaded are in perfect shape at 10,000hrs, while many main engines used for 10min at a time to get out of a slip can be a mess at 2,000hrs.

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OK, thanks for the replies all. I am starting to sound like a broken record, but again, I am shifting my expectations. Too bad I have written off quite a number of boats already with 1000-2000 hours on engine. Oh well... live and learn! So I guess now I'm just waiting on a response from my latest batch of questions, which include chain plates how they're mounted and if they've been replaced or serviced.

Since he has stated so much new stuff- standing and running rigging, engine, full electrical rip and rewire, plumbing, heating, keel bolts, lighting, batteries, etc, I wonder if it would be rude to request receipts at this stage? He has also claimed that the boat has been put on the hard and has been fully winterized every year. I suppose he should have receipts for that as well.

If we move further along I'll have to consider finding an inspector, whether I'll fly over to see the inspection or buy sight unseen, taxes and how to handle that internationally, and how to actually get the boat home to The Netherlands from the West Coast of England!
 

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Not sure why you鈥檙e focused on the chain plates, nor why you鈥檇 ask for receipts. Your surveyor checks the work.

No one asks for winterizing receipts, nor should care.

You hire a delivery a Captain, who is familiar with moving boats between countries.

You must go see the boat yourself. I find it hard to imagine, with all this anxiety, that you鈥檇 even consider buying sight unseen.

Go. See it. You May love it, you may be disappointed. Part of the game.
 
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Not sure why you鈥檙e focused on the chain plates, nor why you鈥檇 ask for receipts. Your surveyor checks the work.
Well if I bought a car with a 'new transmission' I'd ask to see the receipts. That's normal with cars, I guess not with boats. Seems a lot of faith is put in the surveyor. Maybe I should be asking how to find a good surveyor!

Chain plates because it seemed agreed in the maintenance costs thread that this was a potentially huge cost and most boats around 40 years old will most likely need them replaced, re-bedded, or at least looked at. I sure don't want to buy a 30k boat then immediatly have to face a 15k chain plate bill because the surveyor missed something. I was also told surveyors often miss chain plate issues so I guess that's why I asked.

No one asks for winterizing receipts, nor should care.
Well he does make a big deal out of winterizing the sails and the engine and the water and fuel tanks, as evidence it's been cared for. Again, I suppose the surveyor is critical in verifying condition if one doesn't demand receipts for the claims.

You hire a delivery a Captain, who is familiar with moving boats between countries.
Any idea how much would be normal for this job, from England to The Netherlands?
Are captains paid by the mile or the day or..?

You must go see the boat yourself. I find it hard to imagine, with all this anxiety, that you鈥檇 even consider buying sight unseen.
Go. See it. You May love it, you may be disappointed. Part of the game.
Well I like to think of it as making an educated purchase instead of 'anxiety', but maybe I'm doing more research than the average person, fair enough I guess. These Dutch tell stories of the North Sea and they can sure scare the careful into you! And considering the horror stories from the maintenance costs thread, I'm definitely highly concerned that the boat is in the condition stated.

I'm beginning to think I need to start seeing some local boats, so I at least have a few points of reference.
 

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Maybe I should be asking how to find a good surveyor!
Absolutely. You鈥檙e going to need to spend money. It鈥檚 good to see you asking questions and accepting advice. However, you鈥檒l never think of them all. You have to make some compromises, learn a couple lessons the hard way, just like most things in life.

You really have to go see some boats. I鈥檇 spend some money to go see the one that appeals to you above, then ask for receipts, or make your offer subject to them, if they seem warranted. Maybe hire someone to do a cursory look with you.

Good luck.
 
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Bad idea to import a boat. Look local... buy local.
Perhaps you had a bad experience. (?)
We imported our previous boat from BC Canada, and titled it in Oregon. Back in the 80's we even had to pay duty on a Canadian built vessel. We had no real problems, altho creating a new title tok a couple letters back n forth with our state Marine Board.
It was a Niagara 26, and was a wonderful little performance cruiser that we raced and cruised on for a decade.
That said, it's gonna be easier to buy locally, usually, except when it isn't.
:)
 

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Bad idea to import a boat. Look local... buy local.
I鈥檇 be more inclined to stay local (what exactly is local), in the US. In Europe, I doubt that鈥檚 as luxurious an option. It would be like living in NY and not looking in CT.
 
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If you can find a local boat... within say.... 100 miles... makes things a lot easier.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Rush,

Buy this boat 1979 Kalik 33 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk The price is right and the pictures are such a mess that you should be able to negotiate further. These were good all around boats built for the area in which you are sailing.

Plan 'B' would be 1987 X-Yachts X-99 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk. These are pretty versatile designs. They take more skill to sail and have less room than the Kalik, but you will learn to sail more rapidly and these are extremely robustly built boats also designed for your neck of the woods. The Buhk 1 cyl is easy to work on (I had one in my Laser 28) and parts should be easier to get in the EU than they are here.This would be an extremely easy boat to sail short-hand. While this is a fast boat, once reefed down and flying a small jib, they can stand up to some pretty brutal conditions.

The point being that you can sail the living daylights out of either of these boats. they should be easy and cheap to maintain. They make a good platform to learn to sail, live aboard and learn to maintain a boat. When done, you should be able to sell the boat for close to what you paid for it. Boats like these will remain popular and marketable, where as most of the older boats will be very hard to find a buyer for.

Jeff
 
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